More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

 I have just spoken to Tudor Watkins and he says the Hereford Aberystwyth service existed in 1893 and was still operating in around 1910. There is also a rumour that for one year (which I think was 1908) there was a Swansea to Aberystwyth service via Three Cocks and Moat Lane.

 

I should imagine the carriage used would have been one of the varieties of Clayton arc-roofed bogie luggage or brake composites from the 1880s, even as late as 1910 - though hopefully one converted to include lavatories. The summer 1911 North & West carriage marshalling instructions provide details of the Birmingham-Hereford portion of the 6:25 am Derby - Bristol/Bath train (otherwise mostly S&DJR vehicles): a 6-wheel third brake (D504) and a 45' bogie lavatory composite brake - one of the five D526 carriages of Lot 109 of 1884 to have had one third class compartment converted to a pair of lavatories, making them the only Midland BCLs with two first and two third class compartments.

 

Cardiff doesn't feature and I have to give you Penzance too - the deepest into Great Western territory I can find for a through carriage working is Weston-super-Mare. In addition to the Birmingham/Leicester - Norfolk through carriages via the M&GN, I note through carriages Birmingham - Leicester - Ipswich and Manchester - Sheffield - Harwich (a service I associate more with the Great Central), evidencing a degree of co-operation with the Great Eastern which I don't think the LNWR could match?

 

For completeness: the same 1911 marshalling instructions detail the carriages working through to Great Western territory off the 8:15 am ex-Bradford,10:55 ex-Derby and 10:5 am ex-York corridor expresses. All three have Midland through carriages to Plymouth, composites of Bain's design, possibly D472 (for once there's some ambiguity in matching the instructions with the diagram book), and the first two also having a Great Western brake composite for Torquay and Kingswear - these are specified to have two first and four third class compartments, seating 10 and 28 respectively and weighing 26 tons - is that enough information for identification?

 

The through carriages on the Derby train originated at Manchester London Road and were attached at Birmingham, having come via the LNWR route - an example of the growing co-operation between the two companies from 1908 onwards. The Plymouth carriage by the York express originated at Newcastle.

 

Sorry, this is getting off the topic of wagons a bit!

 

Ref: Midland Railway: Marshalling of Through Trains between North & West of England, July, August, and September, 1911. Midland Railway Study Centre Item No. 00615.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Compound2632

[wagonman]

 

 

For completeness: the same 1911 marshalling instructions detail the carriages working through to Great Western territory off the 8:15 am ex-Bradford,10:55 ex-Derby and 10:5 am ex-York corridor expresses. All three have Midland through carriages to Plymouth, composites of Bain's design, possibly D472 (for once there's some ambiguity in matching the instructions with the diagram book), and the first two also having a Great Western brake composite for Torquay and Kingswear - these are specified to have two first and four third class compartments, seating 10 and 28 respectively and weighing 26 tons - is that enough information for identification?

 

 

 

 

I don't know the tare weights but there were a few GWR diagrams that might suit. Both these examples were built as tri-compos but the 2nds were demoted to 3rds when second class was abolished thus giving the required 2x1st, 4x3rd arrangement. The E39 'Falmouth Coupé' was built in 1894 and there were 15 of them originally for use in Cornwall. They were non-corridor and had no less than five lavatories!

 

The E48 of 1896 vintage only had two loos but it did have gangway connections and was a couple of feet longer at 58'. Harris describes them as Composites but Russell has a drawing of E48 that clearly shows a guard and luggage space. The usual caveats about Russell apply, but I think he's right this time. 

 

There were other Brake/Compo designs but none so far as I know with the requisite number of compartments. Both the above were standard Dean clerestory designs of course.

 

 

Richard

Edited January 4, 2018 by wagonman

[Compound2632]

See also here, where I posed the same question under the noses of the Great Western experts. Unwise - I should have kept one question in one place. Apologies.

 

I've realised I've made another mistake: for the 10:55 ex-Derby, the through portion to Devon originated at Bradford - it is in fact the same train as the 8:15 from Bradford, with additional carriages added at Derby (from Manchester and York, plus a restaurant carriage). So there's only one GW carriage in each direction, not two. Manchester London Road didn't come into it - that was the next train listed, the Bournemouth express (fore-runner of The Pines Express), which had a through portion from Manchester London Road attached at Birmingham with carriages for Bournemouth and Southampton - the latter detached at Cheltenham and going forward via that Midland proxy, the M&SWJR.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Compound2632

[Brassey]

I don't know the tare weights but there were a few GWR diagrams that might suit. Both these examples were built as tri-compos but the 2nds were demoted to 3rds when second class was abolished thus giving the required 2x1st, 4x3rd arrangement. The E39 'Falmouth Coupé' was built in 1894 and there were 15 of them originally for use in Cornwall. They were non-corridor and had no less than five lavatories!

 

The E48 of 1896 vintage only had two loos but it did have gangway connections and was a couple of feet longer at 58'. Harris describes them as Composites but Russell has a drawing of E48 that clearly shows a guard and luggage space. The usual caveats about Russell apply, but I think he's right this time. 

 

There were other Brake/Compo designs but none so far as I know with the requisite number of compartments. Both the above were standard Dean clerestory designs of course.

 

 

Richard

 

If one is thinking of modelling these, very few kits exist of GWR break composites though they were used extensively as through carriages.  The Falmouth Coupe was in the Bettabitz/247 Dev range.  Worsley Works also do some GWR break composites.  The issue here is, if you can identify the correct carriage, scratch building may be the only option

[Compound2632]

If one is thinking of modelling these, very few kits exist of GWR break composites though they were used extensively as through carriages.  The Falmouth Coupe was in the Bettabitz/247 Dev range.  Worsley Works also do some GWR break composites.  The issue here is, if you can identify the correct carriage, scratch building may be the only option

 

The 1911 carriage marshalling instructions survive in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection but not those for other years (for North & West trains) except to October 1922 instructions which cover the whole system but with less detail. My periods of modelling interest are earlier than 1911 - around 1902/3 - and later, just pre-grouping. In the 1922 book the Great Western through carriage has become a three-coach through portion running between Bradford and Paignton, Midland or Great Western stock on alternate days; the Midland through carriage to Plymouth seems to have disappeared. The 1903 timetable book doesn't appear to show any through workings apart from one to Weston-super-Mare. So this is just for general interest.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Some progress on de-wonking the tariff brake van. The longitudinal ribs on the underside of the floor were carefully removed using a chisel blade (X-Acto No.17) – this gave a smooth finish. Trying a dry run with an MJT compensation unit (item 2290), it looks to be spot on for height – though if I find I do need compensation, I’ll have to try the shorter version (item 2292); there’s then the risk of having to fiddle around with packing pieces to get both units at the same height. (Remember that these vans had 3’7 ½” dia wheels so the centre-line of axles and bearings is 1 mm higher above rail level than for most wagons.)

 

 

The job I’m not looking forward to is filing the ends off the Gibson pin-point axles so that they clear the now-cosmetic axleboxes. The axles are hardened steel. If starting from scratch, I would have enlarged the holes in the axleboxes (and of course not glued bearings in) so that the pin-points had room to waggle. Another lesson to try to remember for next time!

 

Now where is that Carr’s metal black?

Edited September 4, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Mikkel]

Nice de-wonking work! If needed, packing shouldn't be too difficult I think?

 

The Carr's metal black is becoming an intriguing leitmotif,  it'll almost be an anti-climax when you find it 

[Compound2632]

Nice de-wonking work! If needed, packing shouldn't be too difficult I think?

 

If the other end has the shorter compensating unit, working as designed, unless the MJT people have been very thoughtful in their design (as may well be the case), it may be tricky to get the van level if packing is in increments of 10thou plasticard.

 

After checking with urbandictionary.com, I should find a better term for the act of correcting the misalignment of wagon axles.

 

The Carr's metal black is becoming an intriguing leitmotif,  it'll almost be an anti-climax when you find it  

 

The most sure way to find it will be to order some more...

Edited January 5, 2018 by Compound2632

[Guy Rixon]

The last time I bought AGW wheels, the axles were steel but not hardened. I cut off the points using a piercing saw.

[Dave John]

Hmm, If I need a plain axle I just pull the wheels off and rebuild with a 2mm silver steel axle. I accept there might be a bit more drag with an inside bearing compensated unit . 

[timbowilts]

The 1911 carriage marshalling instructions survive in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection but not those for other years (for North & West trains) except to October 1922 instructions which cover the whole system but with less detail. My periods of modelling interest are earlier than 1911 - around 1902/3 - and later, just pre-grouping. In the 1922 book the Great Western through carriage has become a three-coach through portion running between Bradford and Paignton, Midland or Great Western stock on alternate days; the Midland through carriage to Plymouth seems to have disappeared. The 1903 timetable book doesn't appear to show any through workings apart from one to Weston-super-Mare. So this is just for general interest.

I know tnis is very off topic but if Cardiff isn’t mentioned is Swansea? St Thomas’s was a Midland Railway outpost in Swansea but did it see any through workings to anywhere?

 

Tim T

[Brassey]

The 1911 carriage marshalling instructions survive in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection but not those for other years (for North & West trains) except to October 1922 instructions which cover the whole system but with less detail. My periods of modelling interest are earlier than 1911 - around 1902/3 - and later, just pre-grouping. In the 1922 book the Great Western through carriage has become a three-coach through portion running between Bradford and Paignton, Midland or Great Western stock on alternate days; the Midland through carriage to Plymouth seems to have disappeared. The 1903 timetable book doesn't appear to show any through workings apart from one to Weston-super-Mare. So this is just for general interest.

 

Out of interest, I might have missed this but, where is your layout based? Are there different ones for each time period?

[Penlan]

I know tnis is very off topic but if Cardiff isn’t mentioned is Swansea? St Thomas’s was a Midland Railway outpost in Swansea but did it see any through workings to anywhere?

We await John Miles' reply - as he's a co-author of the Midland Rly in the Swansea Valleys.. 

[John_Miles]

IamhavingproblemswithtryingtopostonRMWebasitrefusestorecognisemyspacebar.Thisdoesn'toccurwithanyothersoftwaresowhatiswrongIdon'tknow.ThemainthroughworkingsfromStThomasweretoBirmingham.

Thesewerethroughcarriagesrather than trains and (Space bar now recognised!!!) as the agreement with the GWR was that the Midland was only allowed to work its own goods trains between Worcester and Hereford. Any passenger stock had to be attached to a GWR train. No doubt the GWR ensured that the train was exceptionally slow.

 

The Midland's running powers came from its initial investment in the West Midlands Railway which the Midland and LNWR (they were on speaking terms at the time) tried to control with the idea of taking it over but Parliament put a stop to this and the GWR stepped in. You would though think that the Midland would have sufficient clout to insist on running its own passenger trains so possibly they made the decision that the traffic on offer wasn't worth it.

[timbowilts]

IamhavingproblemswithtryingtopostonRMWebasitrefusestorecognisemyspacebar.Thisdoesn'toccurwithanyothersoftwaresowhatiswrongIdon'tknow.ThemainthroughworkingsfromStThomasweretoBirmingham.

Thesewerethroughcarriagesrather than trains and (Space bar now recognised!!!) as the agreement with the GWR was that the Midland was only allowed to work its own goods trains between Worcester and Hereford. Any passenger stock had to be attached to a GWR train. No doubt the GWR ensured that the train was exceptionally slow.

 

The Midland's running powers came from its initial investment in the West Midlands Railway which the Midland and LNWR (they were on speaking terms at the time) tried to control with the idea of taking it over but Parliament put a stop to this and the GWR stepped in. You would though think that the Midland would have sufficient clout to insist on running its own passenger trains so possibly they made the decision that the traffic on offer wasn't worth it.

Thanks for that, John. so St Thomas's only saw local trains effectively? i really should buy your book!

 

Tim T

[Buhar]

You need to click a second time in the reply box to activate the spacebar.  This only seems to have happened to me in the last month or so.  I click to type my reply but the space bar then sends me to the foot of the page.  Clicking at the end of the first word I've typed cures it.

[Compound2632]

Out of interest, I might have missed this but, where is your layout based? Are there different ones for each time period?

 

Layout? What layout?

 

I'm building stock towards a layout based on the Midland north of Birmingham - the broad idea that the Midland rather than the LNWR built the branch line to Sutton Coldfield in the early 1860s - both companies submitted bills to Parliament in the same session but the LNWR won out at the committee stage [Roger Lea, Steaming up to Sutton (Westwood Press, 1984) - now out of print]. The presumption is that the Midland used this as a springboard for lines into the Cannock Chase coalfield (as with the Wolverhampton, Walsall and Water Orton line of 1872) and perhaps also north to Lichfield (as the LNWR did in 1884) and east to link up with the Kingsbury branch. The LNWR has running poers - perhaps as a result of compromise over the building of the original line - and there's also some transfer traffic from the Great Western - or even running powers - anxious to get a foothold in the coalfields north of their Birmingham - Wolverhampton line. Don't ask for a map...

 

I'm building stock for c. 1902-3 but pragmatism dictates I also have some for 1922-ish, as there are certain things that are easier, such as engines: the Bachmann 3F and 4F, the Hornby LMS standard 2P as a candidate for conversion to a 483, and an SEF Flatiron that I've been honing my whitemetal soldering skills towards. The Ratio carriage kits are also appropriate to this era, the clerestories being in late Midland condition whilst the suburban carriages are exactly right for the stock introduced in the Birmingham area in 1908 and appearing in many W L Good photos from the early 20s (though he mostly took his photos on the south side of Birmingham). I'm aware that there are some infrastructure changes between these two dates, notably the replacement of the white spot on signal arms by the conventional white stripe.

 

I have a mothballed layout (currently standing on end), "Worcester Wharf", loosely based on Birmingham Central Goods but with a small suburban terminus inspired by Bristol St. Philips; this re-used Peco code 100 track and points from my teenage layout - one reason I became dissatisfied with it. This has a 1950s setting, heavily influenced by Terry Essery's Saltley Firing Days and the advent of the current golden age of RTR - starting, I think, with a Hornby Black Five bought when I was first getting back into modelling. I've a fair number of Parkside wagons built for this.

 

The layout on which things actually run started out as the boys' layout but inevitably got taken over as their interests developed away through Lego, video games, and chess to music (piano, clarinet, trumpet), Magic and bridge... This deviates from the West Midland theme, being the Derbyshire & Staffordshire Junction Railway - set-track and Metcalfe-ville. I do enjoy building and refining the Metcalfe kits, several of which have a definite Midland flavour - especially the engine shed, coal stage, and goods shed, though the country station is distinctively MS&L and the signalbox has something of Crewe about it. This has influenced the history and stock of the line.

 

There, I've 'fessed up.

[mike morley]

The job I’m not looking forward to is filing the ends off the Gibson pin-point axles so that they clear the now-cosmetic axleboxes. The axles are hardened steel.

 

Whenever I've filed the pin-points off it has been a comparatively quick, easy job so I doubt if the axles are hardened steel.

 

One problem I have had is that surprisingly little filing generates enough heat to soften the plastic wheel-centres.  Simply sliding the wheels along to the far end of the axle is not enough to prevent it happening.  The wheels need to be removed.

Edited January 7, 2018 by mike morley

[Compound2632]

IamhavingproblemswithtryingtopostonRMWebasitrefusestorecognisemyspacebar.Thisdoesn'toccurwithanyothersoftwaresowhatiswrongIdon'tknow.ThemainthroughworkingsfromStThomasweretoBirmingham.

Thesewerethroughcarriagesrather than trains and (Space bar now recognised!!!) as the agreement with the GWR was that the Midland was only allowed to work its own goods trains between Worcester and Hereford. Any passenger stock had to be attached to a GWR train. No doubt the GWR ensured that the train was exceptionally slow.

 

The Midland's running powers came from its initial investment in the West Midlands Railway which the Midland and LNWR (they were on speaking terms at the time) tried to control with the idea of taking it over but Parliament put a stop to this and the GWR stepped in. You would though think that the Midland would have sufficient clout to insist on running its own passenger trains so possibly they made the decision that the traffic on offer wasn't worth it.

 

Ihadthesameproblemyesterdayonmyfather'scomputer.

 

For example, from the Midland summer 1911 North & West carriage marshalling instructions again:

 

The 6:25 am from Derby attached in front at Birmingham a 31' 6-wheel third brake (D504) and a 45' bogie lavatory composite brake (526 modified) for Hereford. These carriages were detached at Worcester from whence they went forward by the 9:50 am Great Western train. (The rest of the train from Derby is interesting in that it was composed of S&DJR stock - vans and bogie lavatory brake thirds and composites - as was a train originating at about the same time from Nottingham; the Derby train went via Worcester whereas the Nottingham train went by the direct rout; there was some complicated shuffling around at Gloucester which resulted in half of each train going to Bristol and half direct to Bath and on to Bournemouth. There were of course corresponding northbound trains but their workings weren't quite as complicated.)

 

Although, to reply to timbowilts, my 1903 summer timetable reprint does include in its list of through carriages, Swansea to Birmingham at 8:5 am and 11.5 am but nothing in the opposite direction! Looking at the relevant timetable page, these trains reached Hereford at 12:17 and 3:00 pm respectively, going forward from Hereford at 12:55 pm and 4:20 pm... It's not easy to distinguish a through carriage from a connection from these tables. The long-distance main-line tables give Swansea (and Cardiff) as connections from the Great Western at Gloucester - which would clearly be a much quicker way of getting from Swansea to Birmingham! 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Whenever I've filed the pin-points off it has been a comparatively quick, easy job so I doubt if the axles are hardened steel.

 

One problem I have had is that surprisingly little filing generates enough heat to soften the plastic wheel-centres.  Simply sliding the wheels along to the far end of the axle is not enough to overcome the problem.  The wheels need to be removed.

 

You probably filed with greater vigour than I remember doing! At least one wheel has to come off anyway to mount the inside bearing unit. Looking through the Gibson catalogue, they don't appear to supply the inside-bearing i.e. flush-ended axles for their locomotive carrying and tender wheels as a separate item, though I see they will supply their 00 wagon wheels on 24.5 mm pin-point axles - which could be a simpler solution. I could do with more wagon wheels anyway... (No, not those - according the packaging they're for road vehicles.)

[wagonman]

I know tnis is very off topic but if Cardiff isn’t mentioned is Swansea? St Thomas’s was a Midland Railway outpost in Swansea but did it see any through workings to anywhere?

 

Tim T

 

 

As the MR operated the Neath & Brecon services north of Colbren Junc I assume they offered through services from Swansea to Hereford. I stand to be corrected by anyone who actually knows what they're talking about!

[Compound2632]

As the MR operated the Neath & Brecon services north of Colbren Junc I assume they offered through services from Swansea to Hereford. I stand to be corrected by anyone who actually knows what they're talking about!

 

That appears to be the case from the summer 1903 timetable. Not a very frequent service.

[John_Miles]

AboutservicesfromStThomas.TheoriginalquestionwasaboutthroughcarriagessoIansweredthat.ThefollowingcommentsaboutaservicebetweenHerefordandSwanseaarecorrect.IIrctherewere3throughtrainsperday.Thesetendedtoconnect

ateitherYnisygeinonjunctionorPontardawewiththecorrespondingservicefromBrynammaninthedowndirectionandsplitintheupdirection.PhotographicevidenceshowsthattherewasnodoubleheadingsoGurnosshedmusthaveprovidedan

engine. Another interesting fact is that Gerry Reynolds has done a study of the 0-4-4Ts and come to the conclusion that there were not enough to haul all the passenger trains so other engines must have been used. Photographic evidence shows that 1Fs were used but given the Midland's fondness for using 0-6-0s on passenger trains, I suspect these were also used from time to time. I suspect the service was marginal at best. The population served north of the Swansea Valley is very small. Hay is classed as a town but has a population of around 1500, Brecon has a population of around 3000. What was a major source of traffic was cattle and sheep. The Midland moved vastly more of these into Hereford than the other railways. Again, apologies for the space bar problem.

 

The Midland north of Brum did just about serve Cannock Chase. The was a branch north from the Water Orton Wolverhampton line to Brownhills. 

[Compound2632]

The Midland north of Brum did just about serve Cannock Chase. The was a branch north from the Water Orton Wolverhampton line to Brownhills. 

 

Indeed, the Walsall Wood branch from Aldridge. In the dying days of its passenger service it was home to a superb if aging Clayton 54' 12-wheel arc roof lavatory composite brake (D522, Lot 359 of 1896).

[Compound2632]

Now that the decorations are down and the Christmas tree has gone for recycling, I’ve reclaimed the extension cable and done some soldering:

 

 

It’s been a long while since I did any work on this London Road Models (ex-D&S) kit for a L&Y ‘tin tab’ 10 ton brake van. I’d got as far as the horizontal handrails, with some faffing about trying to open up the holes with a fine drill bit. Thanks to those who kindly responded to my enquiry about how to open up holes in thin brass, I got a set of miniature broaches from Squires. That was a while ago too, but today I put them to use (not their first outing) to open up the holes for the top end of the vertical handrails. The bottom end should pass through the top of the bit of vertical ironwork at the side of the door but these have a bolthead etched on, so the handrail is butt soldered onto that. The top end of the handrail is securely fixed by being soldered in place from the inside.

 

The end framing is made from three whitemetal castings. I tinned the brass ends with 145 °C solder and after cleaning up the castings, tinned their rear faces with 100 °C solder. The arch piece went on first, being held in place with small bulldog clips while sweated into place with my 50 W temperature controlled iron. The verticals are cast over-length so were trimmed to fit; they have a lug on the back which is supposed to pass through a hole in the headstock but this prevents them being threaded through the slot in the footplate. The lug was trimmed off but enough remained to locate in the hole, which helped with soldering from behind. However, I evidently wasn’t getting enough heat in as the solder didn’t flow very satisfactorily under the castings – it all looks a bit of a mess at the moment. Any advice on how to improve my technique will be very welcome!

 

I also added the springs and grease axleboxes but not yet the buffers, as I wanted to get a photo in natural light! The kit came with a choice of oil or grease axleboxes but only three of the latter, and was also short of one of the roof arc castings. A line to John Redrup sorted that out – he was very helpful as always.

 

Also remaining to be added is the horizontal handrail across each end. A detail nor provided in the kit is the side lamp, at eves level to the left of the door, as seen here. I think this will end up being made from plastikard. There’s also a mystery hole to the left of the door which I need to remember to fill with solder.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted