More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Lecorbusier]

Stephen,

 

I take it that you are familiar with Tony Wright's dvds on metal kit building ... in my view they are something of a masterclass where white metal soldering is concerned. He has some good tips on getting the low melt solder to flow and fill gaps etc, plus techniques for sucking it back in when too much flows through .... just a thought.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Lecorbusier

[Compound2632]

Stephen,

 

I take it that you are familiar with Tony Wright's dvds on metal kit building ... in my view they are something of a masterclass where white metal soldering is concerned. He has some good tips on getting the low melt solder to flow and fill gaps etc, plus techniques for sucking it back in when too much flows through .... just a thought.

 

Not at all, I have to confess. I'm largely self-taught, though with a lot of help from reading threads on here. 

[Lecorbusier]

Not at all, I have to confess. I'm largely self-taught, though with a lot of help from reading threads on here. 

You might enjoy to watch in a spare moment .... see here edit .... oh and I forgot to say I think the van looks rather good   

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Lecorbusier

[Compound2632]

Following on from Jonathan Wealleans’ demonstration at Warley, I’ve started to experiment with some weathering, trying to follow his techniques. As a first attempt, I’ve tried his suggested half-and-half mix of Humbrol 33 matt black and 201 metallic black, applied as a wash with the white spirit and gunge from my brush-cleaning jar, and then mostly wiped off with a tissue loaded with more white spirit:

 

 

The test model (left) is one of a pair of Slater’s D299 kits I assembled during my dalliance with P4, so they still have the P4 wheelsets. The one on the right shows the point from which I was starting – in those days I hadn’t discovered the advantages of using a spray can primer, or varnish. Also, these have Pressfix transfers rather than the Methfix ones I’ve used more recently, as I was warned that the white spirit-based wash can lift the Methfix transfers.

 

I’m already very happy with the improvement in appearance. The next step is to try the weathering powder. I had an interesting discussion with Jonathan at Warley about how the weathering of wagons in the early 20^th century might differ from that of wagons in the 50s and 60s, bearing in mind the points made in this thread and elsewhere about the effect of atmospheric pollutants on the lead-based paints then in use. The key point there is that there would have been a chemical change in the pigment, resulting in, in the case of a lead grey paint, darkening of the colour, quite separately from the accumulation of soot and dirt. It seems to me that rust would be a much less significant element than in the later period: we’re looking at well-maintained wagons rather than the neglect and decrepitude of the post-Second World War era. So I’ve refrained from introducing any red/brown element into the mix.

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[laurenceb]

A point to remember when weathering Midland waggons is that the lettering always stayed white as the railway used self cleaning paint. (been there got the t shirt)

Next time I think I will try weathering before putting the transfers on.

[jwealleans]

Well, I'm pleased that someone was paying attention. I don't seem to have taken pictures of the wagons I weathered during the demo - I must do that and post them somewhere. I shall look forward to seeing your results.

 

We did mention the self-cleaning paint (Oxalic acid?) as I recall. I have tried to recreate this with a cotton bud pinched to a point with pliers to clean the transfers after weathering. I'd be worried about lack of adhesion or marks if I tried to apply them after weathering.

 

One small point - I use Metalcote 27004 in my mix, not 201. I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make although I suspect 27004 buffs up to a shinier finish.

Edited January 15, 2018 by jwealleans

[Compound2632]

A point to remember when weathering Midland waggons is that the lettering always stayed white as the railway used self cleaning paint. (been there got the t shirt)

Next time I think I will try weathering before putting the transfers on.

 

 

Well, I'm pleased that someone was paying attention. I don't seem to have taken pictures of the wagons I weathered during the demo - I must do that and post them somewhere. I shall look forward to seeing your results.

 

We did mention the self-cleaning paint (Oxalic acid?) as I recall. I have tried to recreate this with a cotton bud pinched to a point with pliers to clean the transfers after weathering. I'd be worried about lack of adhesion or marks if I tried to apply them after weathering.

 

One small point - I use Metalcote 27004 in my mix, not 201. I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make although I suspect 27004 buffs up to a shinier finish.

 

I hope it's clear that with the oxalic paint in mind, I took particular pains to ensure that the black gunk wash was thoroughly wiped off the lettering while, I hope, giving greater defintion to the planking grooves - aiming for the condition we can see in the c. 1890s photos Lecorbusier uploaded. It's getting that break-up of the letters at the planking grooves that puts me off the idea of lettering after weathering - along with the preference for applying and transfers to a gloss varnished surface. I tried various cotton buds - Boots and Tesco - but they all disintegrated, leaving a trail of fibres, so used tissue or kitchen towel instead. Jonathan, I recall you said you used really cheap ones that tended to be firmer - clearly my supermarket shopping isn't down-market enough. Lidl?

 

Thanks for the reminder about the metalcoat - I'd simply forgotten. It'll be interesting to see how the greyer gunmetal affects the finish. I've also not yet tried the weathering powder. I got a pot of the Abteilung "black smoke" but I could do with a reminder of your method - will I find that described on your thread, Jonathan? Thanks again for the tutorial, I should have been making better notes!

[57xx]

I hope it's clear that with the oxalic paint in mind, I took particular pains to ensure that the black gunk wash was thoroughly wiped off the lettering while, I hope, giving greater defintion to the planking grooves - aiming for the condition we can see in the c. 1890s photos Lecorbusier uploaded. It's getting that break-up of the letters at the planking grooves that puts me off the idea of lettering after weathering - along with the preference for applying and transfers to a gloss varnished surface.

When I'm applying lettering now, I press the transfers down into the grooves with a cocktail stick whilst the backing paper is still on. I used to try it after taking the backing paper off but sometimes tore the transfer. So far, had much better success with the new technique. Next step for me will be to try some pin washes in the grooves to see if it gives the break up effect.

 

I tried various cotton buds - Boots and Tesco - but they all disintegrated, leaving a trail of fibres, so used tissue or kitchen towel instead. Jonathan, I recall you said you used really cheap ones that tended to be firmer - clearly my supermarket shopping isn't down-market enough. Lidl?

You need to be paying more attention to your eyeliner and lip gloss. And of course powdering your face.

Edited January 15, 2018 by 57xx

[jwealleans]

I got a pot of the Abteilung "black smoke" but I could do with a reminder of your method - will I find that described on your thread, Jonathan?

I'm afraid you won't, I don't think - I did do a potted summary but I think it was on the LNER forum. Mind you, it was for Tom Foster and he hasn't done too badly from reading it. In fact he was probably better than me before he'd finished reading it.

 

Essentially, dot your powder on with a small brush in the places where you want most of it - the strapping and the sides of the corner plates as you've done above, for example - then use a large soft brush to spread it over the sides. The effect you're looking for is to draw it out so you get a reducing density as you move away from your starting point. With a very large soft brush you shouldn't have any problem with pulling detail off. Use a stiffer brush to remove powder where you want less and a cotton bud to clean areas - with white spirit if you want it really clean (cabside numbers, for example).

 

Cotton buds - yes, the cheaper the better (expensive ones are too fluffy and leave fibres everywhere). I think mine are Wilko's finest, or possibly Boyes.

[Compound2632]

A first pass with Halfords grey primer on the L&Y brake van hides some of my less than perfect soldering while emphasising other defects:

 

 

I’m rather pleased that the filling of the hole top left of the door is invisible but there’s a rather obvious gap between one of the end pillars and the end planking.

 

I haven’t seen a photo or drawing of the end of one of these vans, so I’m not sure if I’ve got the handrail right – I have a nagging doubt that it might terminate in the end pillars – no central section. The footplate that runs round the outside of the van has a gap in it but I suppose that’s to clear the coupling hook.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Rail-Online]

 

I haven’t seen a photo or drawing of the end of one of these vans, so I’m not sure if I’ve got the handrail right – I have a nagging doubt that it might terminate in the end pillars – no central section. The footplate that runs round the outside of the van has a gap in it but I suppose that’s to clear the coupling hook.

 

Yes I am afraid so, terminates on a bolt on the end stantion, the prototype handrail was flattened and a hole made for the bolt to go through. 

 

Tony

[Spitfire2865]

 

Looks good.

Hopefully soon Ill be able to start on my G3 version of it.  

[Compound2632]

Yes I am afraid so, terminates on a bolt on the end stantion, the prototype handrail was flattened and a hole made for the bolt to go through. 

 

Tony

 

Tony, thanks. That should be an easy fix - though it'll be glue at this stage.

[Compound2632]

I've found I do have a picture showing the end of one of these vans, albeit one without the prominent vertical reinforcing or joining plates - on this one the side sheets are single squares of iron sheet. I think this may be an earlier build or photo than the one I've linked to before - other detail differences include the side lamp on a bracket to the left of the door (was that what the mystery hole was for?) rather than the built-in version, and dorr handrails that run right down to the footplate. Anyway, the end handrails are arranged as Tony describes. I'm also noting the rainstrip over the door in both photos - this extends to the left to throw water clear of the lamp.

 

I have a short and incomplete run of Model Railway News from mid-1968 to late-1970; this has a series by that doyen of L&Y enthusiasts, Noel Coates, entitled Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm! The October 1970 article is about these brake vans and includes both the photos under discussion. Apropos of the end handrails, Coates writes "on some vans these terminated on the end stanchions, not inside them" - so I have a choice. But gluing to the end pillars and cutting the middle bit out will be simplest.

 

This second photo also features an impressive if elderly L&Y goods guard with shunter's pole, standing in the doorway.

[Poggy1165]

There was a really good article in the L&Y Society Magazine about these vans many years ago. By Barry C. Lane. You might be able to buy a copy, or at least a photostat, if you contacted them.

[Compound2632]

There was a really good article in the L&Y Society Magazine about these vans many years ago. By Barry C. Lane. You might be able to buy a copy, or at least a photostat, if you contacted them.

 

If I was going to go the distance, I should have got hold of that first! I think I'll settle for something that looks like the photo. I'm not sure how I'm going to use this (and my other L&Y wagons)!

 

I presume there's also information in Vol. 2 of Coates' Lancashire & Yorkshire Wagons, which I never got round to buying.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

Following the brake van with interest Stephen, an interesting prototype and the model has already captured the charm.

 

Meanwhile, if you can't be bothered to re-wheel your P4 D299, you could model this:  http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Derby&objid=1997-7397_DY_1062

[Compound2632]

On 20/01/2018 at 21:00, Mikkel said:

Following the brake van with interest Stephen, an interesting prototype and the model has already captured the charm.

 

It's the charm that has got me building it. I've been rather taken with these brakes since first reading Noel Coates' MRN article nearly forty years ago! He describes building one from scratch, well before the D&S kit was thought of.

 

On 20/01/2018 at 21:00, Mikkel said:

Meanwhile, if you can't be bothered to re-wheel your P4 D299, you could model this:  http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Derby&objid=1997-7397_DY_1062

 

 

NRM DY 1062, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

Well, one of the D&S kits I have that I'm summoning up the courage for is the Cowans Sheldon 15 ton crane, which I imagine is what's just out of picture on the other end of that hefty-looking loop of chain. [EDIT: Clicking "prev" I find I'm right - and that's a photo I've seen before.] Another one for the D299 photo collection - note it's one with the earlier 8A axleboxes per the Mousa kit. It's also looking rather warped - a known problem with resin kits but in fact the D299s I've had from Mousa are all true and square (perhaps as a result of being direct prints rather than casts).

 

EDIT again: I like the dumb-buffered cupboard door wagon in this one - though I hope that's not the signalman still at his post in the doorway of the box!

 

 

NRM DY 581, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

and another EDIT: note the tariff brake van on the right of this photo - and some interesting visiting stock for what is, I think, an agricultural fair.

 

 

NRM DY 1445, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

Most of my wagons have been built with half an eye to P4 though for most it would need tweaking of the position of the brake gear. I do plan to put 00 wheels in those of my wagons that currently have P4 wheels, so that I can run them. The thing is, I'm pretty much out of wheels but what with post-Christmas oven and boiler failures, I'm having to exercise restraint, so no Gibson order just yet. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
Broken links to photos on NRM website replaced with CC-licensed copies of the photos in question.

[Portchullin Tatty]

 

It's also looking rather warped - a known problem with resin kits

 

Warped resin is normally an easy fix.

 

Put the resin in warm (35 - 40C) water for a few minutes and softens significantly (alarmingly even!). You can then ease it to remove the warp or - if this is the effect you are looking for - introduce a sag or splaying of the sides.

 

Don't use boiling water though, as you may get a blob of resin as the outcome!

[wagonman]

You can never have too many D299 wagons...

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Derby&objid=1997-7397_DY_2806

[Compound2632]

On 22/01/2018 at 18:32, wagonman said:

You can never have too many D299 wagons...

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Derby&objid=1997-7397_DY_2806

 

 

NRM DY 2806, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

Absolutely!

 

But tell me, do you think the line of wagons immediately in front of the photographer are lower - only 3 or even 2 planks? They clearly have side doors rather than drop sides - note the slightly raised or possibly misaligned outwards capping strip. Not Midland, anyway.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
Broken link to NRM website replaced by photo.

[Western Star]

And the first wagon in the line left of centre?  Unusual to see a line of nuts / bolts between the stanchions...  is this a variant on D299?

[Worsdell forever]

And the first wagon in the line left of centre?  Unusual to see a line of nuts / bolts between the stanchions...  is this a variant on D299?

 

Is the end wagon on the road three to the right the same?

[Penlan]

And the first wagon in the line left of centre?  Unusual to see a line of nuts / bolts between the stanchions...  is this a variant on D299?

In Midland Wagons, Vol. 1,  by Essery, plate 41A shows a similar wagon with the same line of bolts, however, it doesn't give the Dia No., as it's illustrating one of brake variants - Roberts, fitted in 1903.

There's another wagon with bolts, in the photograph of Toton in 1910, page 83 in the above book, centre of bottom photo.

 

Variant? I don't know. 

There doesn't appear to be a bona-fide Dia., with these bolts, but then I'm a Crewe rather than Derby man.

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Penlan

[wagonman]

And the first wagon in the line left of centre?  Unusual to see a line of nuts / bolts between the stanchions...  is this a variant on D299?

 

 

Unusual, but not unknown – there are examples in Essery's book on Midland wagons. So still a D299...