NEW OO gauge Crowdfunded Class 92 initiative

[JSpencer]

It could be an interesting experiment to see how many crowdfunders join if at the start we say "It could take up to five years to deliver the project and it might be duplicated in the meanwhile. But you will have the best priced, most unique one off run of models".

 

Such marketing might not build the numbers in the first place. But in the long run, at least your customers are will forewarned and will not be so disapointed with delays etc.

[letterspider]

I have opened up a new thread on the Class 92

 

The problem is that crowdfunders need to be able to look at product development without distraction, decide if Dave needs to be advised of any errors in the CAD files / 3D prints / EP samples when they arrive.

This is currently proving very difficult to do with the way this thread is going at the moment.

Hope other crowdfunders will see this is necessary and support accordingly

 

New thread starts here:

Class 92 forum - crowdfunders only

 

Edited February 27, 2019 by letterspider

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

It could be an interesting experiment to see how many crowdfunders join if at the start we say "It could take up to five years to deliver the project and it might be duplicated in the meanwhile. But you will have the best priced, most unique one off run of models".

 

 

Crowd funding is a concept, that when it works, allows otherwise iffy project to come to market.

 

I suspect the problem is that the model railway market is just too spread out, thus making it difficult to reach your prospective customers, which then results in the too long process to get sufficient commitments which then in turn gives some of the non-crowd funding companies time to bring a competitor model to market.  None of these product, either delivered or in progress, would have survived a 6 month or less "commit or it doesn't get made" beginning that most non-railway crowd funding seems to work on.

 

I wish Dave the best, but I would be surprised to see another crowd-funded project announced given what we now know.

Edited February 27, 2019 by mdvle

[letterspider]

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

 

Crowd funding is a concept, that when it works, allows otherwise iffy project to come to market.

 

I suspect the problem is that the model railway market is just too spread out, thus making it difficult to reach your prospective customers, which then results in the too long process to get sufficient commitments which then in turn gives some of the non-crowd funding companies time to bring a competitor model to market.  None of these product, either delivered or in progress, would have survived a 6 month or less "commit or it doesn't get made" beginning that most non-railway crowd funding seems to work on.

 

I wish Dave the best, but I would be surprised to see another crowd-funded project announced given what we now know.

 

I hope you are wrong and I think it is likely we may see more crowdfunding projects. The biggest risk and expense is in the tooling but with the way 3D printing is rapidly developing we are now seeing incredible levels of detail can be achieved at significantly less unit cost (x10 perhaps?) - what may be the barrier is the cost of skilled hand assembly.

 

 

 

[Great Western]

16 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

 

1) Too many announcements of new models

2) Too few models delivered

3) poor mechanism and running qualities of the J94

4) Failure of previous crowdfunding projects

5) Cock ups / delays / excuses / empty promises

 

if the J94 mechanism had been better (I have 3 from the 1st batch), I’d have jumped in with the 92 crowdfunding. As it is, I took the view to wait and see it on the shelves. If it is ever delivered and it’s as good as his marketing says it is, then I’ll still buy some.

 

whilst I’d love an APT, I do not perceive the risk of stumping up cash up front to be worthwhile (for me) and a full set would be my entire annual budget but I’d like to see the model made.

 

all of the above can be overcome with successful delivery of models that set new standards as per his promises.

 

 

Everything you said I totally agree with, which leads me to another open question:

 

Why after all those factual reasons, people will fall over themselves to stump up cash and shower support to DJ?

 

if he was Dave from Burnley with zero to little experience in the field he wouldn’t have last 15 minutes before being run out of town.

 

Is he riding the good name of his previous employer who at points has opening criticised and distanced himself from ?

The same firm who have really upped their game since the departure of DJ, you can’t have it both ways.

[adb968008]

14 hours ago, letterspider said:

 

I hope you are wrong and I think it is likely we may see more crowdfunding projects. The biggest risk and expense is in the tooling but with the way 3D printing is rapidly developing we are now seeing incredible levels of detail can be achieved at significantly less unit cost (x10 perhaps?) - what may be the barrier is the cost of skilled hand assembly.

 

 

 

And the paint job, and the chassis.

 

i’m a Big fan of 3D printing and currently think that may be the only viable future for kits. However this is an opportunity for an enterprise that can assemble and paint in batches to take this space, I look at OO works as an example to follow.

 

But right now China is still the way for those in batches of hundreds to thousands.

[Neil]

18 hours ago, letterspider said:

I have opened up a new thread on the Class 92

 

The problem is that crowdfunders need to be able to look at product development without distraction, decide if Dave needs to be advised of any errors in the CAD files / 3D prints / EP samples when they arrive.

This is currently proving very difficult to do with the way this thread is going at the moment.

Hope other crowdfunders will see this is necessary and support accordingly

 

New thread starts here:

Class 92 forum - crowdfunders only

 

 

This strikes me as being a useful idea. However following the link brought me back to this post rather than the new thread. Also whilst I appreciate the intent of the new thread, limiting it to crowdfunders only narrows the pool of available info. There may well be some with helpful and extensive knowledge of the 92 who are not crowdfunding this project.

[Neil]

7 hours ago, Great Western said:

 

 

Everything you said I totally agree with, which leads me to another open question:

 

Why after all those factual reasons, people will fall over themselves to stump up cash and shower support to DJ?

 

if he was Dave from Burnley with zero to little experience in the field he wouldn’t have last 15 minutes before being run out of town.

 

Is he riding the good name of his previous employer who at points has opening criticised and distanced himself from ?

The same firm who have really upped their game since the departure of DJ, you can’t have it both ways.

 

There's possibly a couple of reasons. The first would be desire; wanting something so badly that normal critical thinking becomes overlooked. Secondly we're suckers for the myth of the underdog succeeding against all the odds. Many books, films, plays and TV dramas are based on this.

[njee20]

Secret squirrel thread. 

 

Not sure I see the point. You’re not ‘allowed’ to discuss the developments from emails from Dave until they’re in the open domain, surely having discussion about the model on this thread will keep it on topic and is more likely to solicit further orders. 

 

What if people want 92031 that you’re asking Dave about, but haven’t yet backed it? You can’t actually share what he says anyway, so it’s a bit of a pointless endeavour.

[letterspider]

2 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Secret squirrel thread. 

 

Not sure I see the point. You’re not ‘allowed’ to discuss the developments from emails from Dave until they’re in the open domain, surely having discussion about the model on this thread will keep it on topic and is more likely to solicit further orders. 

 

What if people want 92031 that you’re asking Dave about, but haven’t yet backed it? You can’t actually share what he says anyway, so it’s a bit of a pointless endeavour.

 

I didn't say I can't share,  I just haven't asked him if I can. 

I doubt that any interest amounting to less than 50 or 100 units would even be worthwhile to the factory.

So until we get those sort of responses there is no point distracting him. 

As Accruscale are duplicating the same EWS and have no obligation to listen to the customer,  it seems more sense to ask the crowdfunders who can choose?

 

[njee20]

So you’re now talking about it on the main thread, which is exactly my point...

 

And Dave has no obligation to listen to customers either. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by njee20

[Fenman]

5 minutes ago, njee20 said:

So you’re now talking about it on the main thread, which is exactly my point...

 

And Dave has no obligation to listen to customers either. 

 

Actually, as a non-crowdfunder of the 92, I can see letterspider's point. This current thread has lots of posts which as far as I can see are just nit-picking unpleasantness or negative speculation which usually assumes everything is going tits-up or people are acting in bad faith. It's a tidal wave of misery.

 

So if I were a crowdfunder I think I'd welcome a space for just crowdfunders where we could do our best to help contribute positively to the project, without non-funders like me constantly barging in with our criticisms of Dave's management, or dislike of crowdfunding, etc. Mods permitting, all that stuff can continue to be posted here, so no-one's losing out.

 

Paul

 

 

[njee20]

But wouldn’t it be better to just bring on topic discussion to the thread, to dilute any moaning, or have a proper place you could discuss it elsewhere (eg if Dave had a forum)?

 

Ultimately I assume most people posting have at least a passing interest in a 92, if you don’t and are just here to troll a bloke who no longer posts then you probably need to take a good look at yourself (that’s oneself, not literally you Feynman!).

[Fenman]

7 minutes ago, njee20 said:

But wouldn’t it be better to just bring on topic discussion to the thread, to dilute any moaning, or have a proper place you could discuss it elsewhere (eg if Dave had a forum)?

 

Ultimately I assume most people posting have at least a passing interest in a 92, if you don’t and are just here to troll a bloke who no longer posts then you probably need to take a good look at yourself (that’s oneself, not literally you Feynman!).

 

Of course that would be better. Just as it wold be better if people everywhere on the internet only posted positive things (or negative things in as positive way as possible). But it appears the world isn't like that, as reading back over this thread will clearly demonstrate. The levels of vitriol are startling.

 

So you're proposing that everyone must carry on posting nice things into this poisoned field, whereas letterspider is proposing creating a new "safe space", a fresh start, and leaving the rest of us swirling around in this cesspool if we want to. After 59 pages, his proposal seems like a sensible way forward.

 

I'm not sure why those of us who are not crowd-funders would insist that we must always be able to butt-into their project?

 

Paul

[Legend]

I think it would be better if someone posted regular updates .  The lack of this is whats causing the speculation and negativity.  And while I see the point that crowdfunders should get information first as they are backing the project , surely its in the interests of the project to spread the information as widely as possible , so even if there needs to be an embargo , which I doubt, it should be days not weeks .

 

That said, I see where Letterspiders coming from on a thread purely to do with the 92 and not crowdfunding uncertainties and the process of delivering it.  But really , its just another sign of a poorly thought out plan . As others have said maybe Dave needs his own forum for the 92 and APT to be discussed.

 

Contrast this with Accurascale  who can tell you whats coming , when its coming (roughly) and at what price . Certainty versus a void.

[The Stationmaster]

5 minutes ago, Legend said:

I think it would be better if someone posted regular updates .  The lack of this is whats causing the speculation and negativity.  And while I see the point that crowdfunders should get information first as they are backing the project , surely its in the interests of the project to spread the information as widely as possible , so even if there needs to be an embargo , which I doubt, it should be days not weeks .

 

That said, I see where Letterspiders coming from on a thread purely to do with the 92 and not crowdfunding uncertainties and the process of delivering it.  But really , its just another sign of a poorly thought out plan . As others have said maybe Dave needs his own forum for the 92 and APT to be discussed.

 

Contrast this with Accurascale  who can tell you whats coming , when its coming (roughly) and at what price . Certainty versus a void.

And of course there is another thread - not active for some while - about crowdfunding although it did not go into any detail about individual projects or any particular organisation although one contributed in order to answer various points of detail.  So the 'general' thread is there if people want to address the subject as a method of financing model manufacture.  What that thread does not do however is fully assess the past performance of organisations or companies using crowdfunding to finance their business (although some details have been contributed);   maybe that sort of information is better placed where it is relevant to those involved?

 

So if, for example, Hornby had moved to crowdfunding some of its more specialised models, such as industrials, instead of borrowing money to finance their development there would inevitably be something, in fact quite a lot of something, in a Hornby thread looking at the whys and wherefores of what they were doing and how they were doing it.  It strikes me as a wholly natural reaction to want to know what is going to happen to your money if you entrust it to somebody to spend it on a project on your behalf.  

 

Equally of course nobody can report progress in detail if there is nothing to report and dealing with a designer on the far side of the world inevitably takes time and even small changes to a CAD might take a week to do with emails going back & forth to check things as they progress.   But having said that progress will inevitably be looked at against the background of any initial estimate and frustration can develop if forecast timescales are not met and no explanations are forthcoming and that often means keeping up a steady correspondence and relationship with the factory because it will probably have other customers chasing its resources.

[njee20]

I don't want to butt in, I'm interested in a 92! I'm not prepared to crowdfund one, but I still want one. I'm already excluded from the comms, and the updates from Dave, so why not just set up an email group for all the crowdfunders, or take it to a wholly different platform?!

Are we saying this thread is now just for moaning about Dave then, or are we allowed to talk about the 92 when something comes out? Because the former seems daft, and the latter seems to make a separate thread redundant...

[grahame]

2 hours ago, njee20 said:

Are we saying this thread is now just for moaning about Dave then, or are we allowed to talk about the 92 when something comes out? Because the former seems daft, and the latter seems to make a separate thread redundant...

 

Yep, the 'new' thread does seem to have added to the confusion and cast doubt about the purpose of many DJM threads here on RMweb. And especially as there is little 'official' update news forthcoming and Dave is no longer part of this community. Where does one look for it on RMweb? Yet other manufacturers threads (who do not have anyone who contributes directly on behalf of the company - although in general they produce press releases especially for consumption by all potential customers that get posted and have websites that are regularly updated) seem to thrive and don't end up fragmented with people starting new threads ostensibly for just a few people. It's all making it sound very secretive, hush-hush and underhand.

 

In addition, to me it's the lack of closure on many of the announced projects that is disheartening and worrying. Many just seem to stagnate, stall and fizzle out or limp on with just rumour and/or no details provided. For example of those I've been interested in acquiring finished models (all N gauge) like the HOU hopper, class 23, class 59 and cars/road vehicles, none have had a satisfactory conclusion or confirmed future (definitely cancelled or continuing through very slow progress).

 

G

 

[njee20]

Yep, agreed, and it seems you can add the N gauge APT to that list too, seems to have just totally fizzled out.

[Colin_McLeod]

This is the wrong way round.  

 

The title of this thread refers to the Class 92 and wad started by Dave himself.

 

If a second thread is required at all, it should be about crowd funding, speculation etc.  Let this thread serve its original purpose.

[woodenhead]

The reason this thread meanders (and to a certain extent the other DJM threads) is the lack of input from Dave and the secret squirrel way he sends out updates , it invites sceptical comments and questions that go unanswered.

 

One or two threads about the 92 isn't going to address that, especially when contributors need to 'ask' permission to pass on snippets they have had from Dave.

 

if you actually remove the 'where are the updates' and negative posts from all the threads what actual updates are there on this forum, it's all on his website or in his emails to his crowdfunders.  These threads are no longer for the purpose of updates on the models as Dave has left the building.

[81C]

With all this for and against on these DJM threads has any-one asked DJ why Hattons and Kernow have dispensed with his services I amazed that at least one crowd funder has not asked this question. 

[woodenhead]

9 minutes ago, 81C said:

With all this for and against on these DJM threads has any-one asked DJ why Hattons and Kernow have dispensed with his services I amazed that at least one crowd funder has not asked this question. 

Maybe they have and just not had the need to be vocal about it and go for the 'likes' on a forum.

[JSpencer]

31 minutes ago, 81C said:

With all this for and against on these DJM threads has any-one asked DJ why Hattons and Kernow have dispensed with his services I amazed that at least one crowd funder has not asked this question. 

 

Neither party would be able to publically come out and say why. Or - at best - it makes no business sense to do so either.

 

To be honest, once these shops - each with greater resources than DJM - figured out how to work with factories in China (only a question of time), why would they need a middle man?

[Great Western]

1 hour ago, 81C said:

With all this for and against on these DJM threads has any-one asked DJ why Hattons and Kernow have dispensed with his services I amazed that at least one crowd funder has not asked this question. 

 

 

No one likes the cold hard truth perhaps ?