London Festival of Railway Modelling, Alexandra Palace, 25/26 March 2017

[BRMExhibitions]

Now if they were offering a couple of their On30 streetcars, I might be interested ... .

 

 

Seriously though, this sounds good. I take it anyone visiting the show will be able to enter. Would I be right in assuming that forms are to be dropped off at the BRM stand (without a requirement to subscribe)?

 

Just to confirm...!

 

The questions we asked layout owners are for the children's competition. This is as you correctly predict, our way of finding out a little more about what generally attracts people to the show   Completed forms are to be posted into the entries box at the info point in Palm Court.

 

See you there!

[Huw Griffiths]

Completed forms are to be posted into the entries box at the info point in Palm Court.

 

See you there!

I'm sure lots of people are looking forward to it.

 

As for the NSE unit, I suspect I'm like a number of people here - might not model this region / epoch - but definitely wouldn't say no to something like this, either. I am sure you'll get lots of people filling in these forms … .

 

I hope you don't mind me checking a couple of minor details - just in case they are of interest to any RMweb members visiting the show:

 

* Would I be correct in assuming the boxes won't be sealed / removed until after visitors have left on the Sunday? This might sound like a stupid question - but this might be the only time some visitors get to fill in the forms. (We'll, I say "fill in" - but it's not unknown for me to print "name / address / other details" stickers in advance and use these to save time with any forms I choose to complete … .)

 

* Although I'm not expecting any RMweb "lunchtime meetings" - and I'm not particularly looking for any - I could imagine some people arranging their own unofficial versions. I could also imagine some people popping out of the halls to look for a cash point. Can you confirm that a "pass out / free return" facility will be available, if people ask for their hands to be stamped?

 

Anyway, that's more than enough questions about minor details.

 

 

Huw.

[Accurascale Fran]

Turns out I will be in London for the show and will attend for a couple of hours on the Sunday. If anyone would like a glimpse of the preproduction Irish Railway Models ballast or cement bubble I will bring them along!

[BRMExhibitions]

* Would I be correct in assuming the boxes won't be sealed / removed until after visitors have left on the Sunday? This might sound like a stupid question - but this might be the only time some visitors get to fill in the forms. (We'll, I say "fill in" - but it's not unknown for me to print "name / address / other details" stickers in advance and use these to save time with any forms I choose to complete … .)

 

* Although I'm not expecting any RMweb "lunchtime meetings" - and I'm not particularly looking for any - I could imagine some people arranging their own unofficial versions. I could also imagine some people popping out of the halls to look for a cash point. Can you confirm that a "pass out / free return" facility will be available, if people ask for their hands to be stamped?

 

 

Hi Huw,

Yes, the box will be available to put entries in until we close the show on Sunday. We'll then draw the winner on Wednesday 29th March once we're back in the office, unpacked etc!

 

Hand stamps will available for re-entry as you leave the West Arcade.

Thanks

[sb67]

Got my e ticket and found out my printer's broke! Havent used it in ages and I think the jets might be blocked. Does anyone know if it has to be printed or it can be shown on a phone?

Steve.

[George Woodcock]

Hello

 

     I have received a form today that states that all exhibitors will have to wear Hi-viz clothing during setting up and breakdown of the show. Also hard hats if working at height and protective footwear. Seems a bit over the top for putting up toy trainsets but it seems the rules have been changed at least for Ally Pally.

 

                                                                                                     Cheers

 

                                                                                                                George

[nickwood]

Yep. Had the same form. Same as many other regulations, big and small fish get caught in the same net. Large venues have policies which are aimed at contractors putting up large exhibition stands not your Iain Rice types with their cameo layouts in the back of an Astra.

 

It seems reasonable that a venue which allows vehicles in to offload should have stringent safety measures in place.

Edited March 14, 2017 by nickwood

[5050]

Hello

 

     I have received a form today that states that all exhibitors will have to wear Hi-viz clothing during setting up and breakdown of the show. Also hard hats if working at height and protective footwear. Seems a bit over the top for putting up toy trainsets but it seems the rules have been changed at least for Ally Pally.

 

                                                                                                     Cheers

 

                                                                                                                George

Agree!  Probably best not to go to a Model Railway Exhibition, they must be very dangerous places.  And don't forget the flameproof curtains.

 

Now, where will we get a naked flame when we're there to test them?

 

And who will do it?

Edited March 15, 2017 by 5050

[jamie92208]

Agree!  Probably best not to go to a Model Railway Exhibition, they must be very dangerous places.  And don't forget the flameproof curtains.

 

Now, where will we get a naked flame when we're there to test them?

 

And who will do it?

One of the odd bits of totally useless information that I have collected over the years is that flame proofing is tested by lighting a particular strength of cigarette the right number of inches below the fabric to see if it catches fire. I once had al the details explained to me between Kings Cross and Wakefield by a guy who does the testing. However as the venue is no smoking it's bit academic. The main gist of the conversation is that the standard is so old the cigs in question would be illegal to sell these days and he has to get them specially made.

 

Jamie

[bourneagain]

Got my e ticket and found out my printer's broke! Havent used it in ages and I think the jets might be blocked. Does anyone know if it has to be printed or it can be shown on a phone?

Steve.

You must have a printed ticket, as there are no facilities at the entrance to allow your phone to be scanned. Having a broken printer is one of the downsides having an e-ticket.

Solution- You could forward your email to a friend, who has a printer,

Or you could try your local Library, as the majority now have computer and printer terminals available for public use, log into your email account and print off your ticket, but there could be a small charge involved. 

[black and decker boy]

Hello

 

I have received a form today that states that all exhibitors will have to wear Hi-viz clothing during setting up and breakdown of the show. Also hard hats if working at height and protective footwear. Seems a bit over the top for putting up toy trainsets but it seems the rules have been changed at least for Ally Pally.

 

Cheers

 

George

It was the same in 2016 so was a bit of a scrabble round for 6 vests at work and in our garage.

[BrushVeteran]

It was the same at Warley last year although when the contractors came in after close down on the Sunday most of them weren't wearing any hi viz and in fact were pulling the barriers and display carcasses around from where we stood.............................never mind the H & S people need to be kept busy!!

[Phil Parker]

     I have received a form today that states that all exhibitors will have to wear Hi-viz clothing during setting up and breakdown of the show. Also hard hats if working at height and protective footwear. Seems a bit over the top for putting up toy trainsets but it seems the rules have been changed at least for Ally Pally.

 

 

 

This was new last year, and to the credit of the exhibitors, worked well.

 

I think it's a good idea - we have lots of occasional van drivers in a confined space with plenty of people wandering around. Making those people obvious can't be a bad. Arguably, it's probably less important for "proper" shows where there will be professional stand builders and people who drive vans all the time, and a lot less people wandering around.

 

It won't stop people doing stupid things such as diving through spaces between a moving vehicle and a stand, but we might just spot them.

[Huw Griffiths]

It won't stop people doing stupid things such as diving through spaces between a moving vehicle and a stand, but we might just spot them.

 

... might almost certainly being the operative term.

 

Before we get any exasperated howls of "how dare you say that", I'd probably better stress that nobody's likely to deliberately be inattentive, negligent, or anything remotely like that.

 

When this sort of work's going on, you can pretty much guarantee that there will be "blindspots" - probably less than ideal illumination - people won't always be heard - and there's likely to be nowhere near enough time for anybody to react if people appear without warning.

 

Think of it as much like a building site - except that it's display stands being built.

 

OK - I've never been an exhibitor at any show - I probably never will be - but I'd hope that common sense would tell people to "prepare for the unexpected".

 

 

As for what's sometimes known as PPE ("personal protective equipment"), hi-viz "canary jackets" or day-glo yellow vests aren't expensive - you can get them at Screwfix, or places like Arco. These places also stock helmets and safety footwear. (Sometimes, you might even be able to get basic PPE from your favourite German discount supermarket - at basic prices.)

 

From when I did my industrial training (a number of years back, at a power station which was being commissioned), I recall that the only PPE I found even remotely uncomfortable were a helmet and ear defenders - this was mainly because, if I had to wear them for extended periods of time, they turned into sweat traps. However, even this would have been immensely preferable to serious injuries.

 

 

Anyway, that's more than enough of my thoughts on this matter.

 

Like everyone else here, I just hope the show (plus the build-up and breakdown) passes off without serious incident.

 

 

Huw.

[5050]

This was new last year, and to the credit of the exhibitors, worked well.

 

I think it's a good idea - we have lots of occasional van drivers in a confined space with plenty of people wandering around. Making those people obvious can't be a bad. Arguably, it's probably less important for "proper" shows where there will be professional stand builders and people who drive vans all the time, and a lot less people wandering around.

 

It won't stop people doing stupid things such as diving through spaces between a moving vehicle and a stand, but we might just spot them.

Having just re-read the latest e-mail, my comments are that -

 

a. - exhibitors are not 'workers'.

b. - exhibitors are not 'contractors'.

 

We are there by invitation, unpaid, using our own time, not employed.  I perfectly understand that there need to be safety procedures etc. but I'm damned if I'm going to spend good modelling money on safety footwear for the sake of a couple of hours usage.  However, it does say 'where appropriate'.  Who is going to determine what is 'appropriate'?  After many years of exhibiting I have NEVER seen any injuries (other than a minor cut possibly) caused by handling a model railway in and out of an exhibition hall.  Mind you, I've never attended an exhibition where vehicles can drive right up to the layout location so for this reason I CAN see the point of the hi-vi vests. 

 

Quiite bluntly, if I was exhibiting on my own rather than as part of a team, I would by now have politely given back word on attending - and avoided all such 'commercial' shows in large venues the future.

 

EDIT - forgot to say that for some reason, I am the 'nominated person' to complete the form.  Who 'nominated' me?  All I did was send the layout. info to the organiser. I'm not going to take responsibility in any circumstances.

Edited March 16, 2017 by 5050

[Phil Parker]

Having just re-read the latest e-mail, my comments are that -

 

a. - exhibitors are not 'workers'.

b. - exhibitors are not 'contractors'.

 

We are there by invitation, unpaid, using our own time, not employed.  I perfectly understand that there need to be safety procedures etc. but I'm damned if I'm going to spend good modelling money on safety footwear for the sake of a couple of hours usage.  However, it does say 'where appropriate'.  Who is going to determine what is 'appropriate'?  After many years of exhibiting I have NEVER seen any injuries (other than a minor cut possibly) caused by handling a model railway in and out of an exhibition hall.  Mind you, I've never attended an exhibition where vehicles can drive right up to the layout location so for this reason I CAN see the point of the hi-vi vests. 

 

Quiite bluntly, if I was exhibiting on my own rather than as part of a team, I would by now have politely given back word on attending - and avoided all such 'commercial' shows in large venues the future.

 

EDIT - forgot to say that for some reason, I am the 'nominated person' to complete the form.  Who 'nominated' me?  All I did was send the layout. info to the organiser. I'm not going to take responsibility in any circumstances.

 

Calm down. It's not being a comercial show that throws up the H&S list, it's being in a large exhibition venue. They have a "one size fits all" approach to safety and won't renegotiate this just to accomodate our type of event. Every large venue throws up this sort of thing - I recall Derby civic centre banning RCD devices at the same time everyone else was bringing them in for example. Warley demands they check your RCD works properly before you plug it in, but no-where else (to my knowledge) does.  You've not hit these niggles before because you've never done a show in such a big venue before, but in the size of space you can drive in to, they aren't uncommon and there is nothing any of the organisers can do about it if they want to use the hall.

 

Like all H&S, the key word is "appropriate". Last year, everyone wore hi-viz but I don't reacall much safety footwear. For the sort of jobs we are doing, it's not appropriate. Likewise, we didn't wear hard hats, but the bloke on the cherry picker putting up banners in the ceiling did because it was appropriate for him.

 

Not seeing any inuries do far doesn't mean they have never happened, but no-one wants to see any more.

[SteveCole]

Calm down. It's not being a comercial show that throws up the H&S list, it's being in a large exhibition venue. They have a "one size fits all" approach to safety and won't renegotiate this just to accomodate our type of event. Every large venue throws up this sort of thing - I recall Derby civic centre banning RCD devices at the same time everyone else was bringing them in for example. Warley demands they check your RCD works properly before you plug it in, but no-where else (to my knowledge) does.  You've not hit these niggles before because you've never done a show in such a big venue before, but in the size of space you can drive in to, they aren't uncommon and there is nothing any of the organisers can do about it if they want to use the hall.

 

Like all H&S, the key word is "appropriate". Last year, everyone wore hi-viz but I don't reacall much safety footwear. For the sort of jobs we are doing, it's not appropriate. Likewise, we didn't wear hard hats, but the bloke on the cherry picker putting up banners in the ceiling did because it was appropriate for him.

 

Not seeing any inuries do far doesn't mean they have never happened, but no-one wants to see any more.

 

I couldn't agree more. Hi-Viz vests are a good idea as there will be moving vehicles in the hall on the Friday. As much as I look like a right plonker wearing one (don't say it Phil or Andy!), I do see (and agree with) the reasoning behind it! Safety footwear won't be needed at all. It's a common sense approach really...

[SteveCole]

Anyway, now to far more important things...

 

**GUARANTEE YOUR FREE GIFT!**

If you're visiting The London Festival of Railway Modelling at Alexandra Palace on March 25 or 26 we're giving you the chance to subscribe now and collect your FREE LOCO, GOODY BAG and CORGI MINI COOPER at the show! We have limited stock of the Hornby locomotives, so subscribe early to avoid missing out! If that doesn’t take your fancy we have got a FREE PORTABLE FOLDING LAMP or if that doesn’t interest you either we will give you £10 CASHBACK when you subscribe! Offer ends March 23^rd.

www.brmm.ag/preallypallyoffer2017

 

[5050]

I have discussed this with a friend who is a seasoned show trader (not railways but toy soldiers) and he has advised me NOT to sign anything and I value his experience greatly.  It's not an issue over finite items such as RCD's, it's an issue over liability if anything goes wrong or happens with/to the 3 other members of our 'team'.  By signing the form I could potentially become liable for their damages both to themselves and other people/property.  I am not going to take this risk and have informed Sam accordingly.

 

Looks like I may have a free weekend after all.

 

.

Edited March 16, 2017 by 5050

[sir douglas]

did you?

[bourneagain]

It may sound illogical and a bit of a waste of time with this entire form filling exercise – “we`re never done it before, why start now”, just for erecting and dismantling a model railway layout for a 2 day show on a third party premises. But that is the important part, you will be carrying this activity on a third party premises, it doesn`t matter whether you are being paid or not. The third party under H&S legislation, have a duty of care, as you will also have, to ensure that all work related activities on their premises are carried out safely with the minimum of risk to you and others, hence the wearing of the correct PPE.  They must be now made aware of the safety implicated risks involved, hence a risk assessment form being completed and maybe completing a method statement detailing how this “work” will be carried out. “Work” in your particular case would be the delivering, erecting, operating, dismantling and finally removal of your layout from the third parties premises.  

It may be just a “small” show, until that is, there is an accident and the H&S Inspectors are involved and take it from me they don`t take any prisoners. That`s when the important questions are asked; was the correct PPE being worn or used, where are the risk assessments and method statements, who filled them in, what are the highlighted risks, what steps were taken to mitigate those risks and who was responsible to ensure that this was safely carried out. How many incidents have been reported in the media recently where persons were fatally or seriously injured and no risk assessment was carried out, especially when it comes down to “not in a million years who had thought that would happen,” but it did!

It may be silly and liken to a nanny state to anybody, who during their working lives, have never been involved, especially in recent years, with this level of H&S legislation, but anybody who has, will be very much aware why there is a need for all this paperwork. And this has nothing to do whether we are in the EU or not, it was brought in 1974 to reduce the high number of accidents (and fatalities) throughout UK Industry, with later additions to cover ALL others persons involved in “work” related activities, ie yourselves.

You may find more increasingly that these forms will need to be completed for any show on third party premises, not only to adhere to the current H&S legislation, but for insurances purposes as well. I hope that this will not put you off exhibiting your layout for future shows, but I`m afraid it’s the way of the world nowadays. 

[5050]

It may sound illogical and a bit of a waste of time with this entire form filling exercise – “we`re never done it before, why start now”, just for erecting and dismantling a model railway layout for a 2 day show on a third party premises. But that is the important part, you will be carrying this activity on a third party premises, it doesn`t matter whether you are being paid or not. The third party under H&S legislation, have a duty of care, as you will also have, to ensure that all work related activities on their premises are carried out safely with the minimum of risk to you and others, hence the wearing of the correct PPE.  They must be now made aware of the safety implicated risks involved, hence a risk assessment form being completed and maybe completing a method statement detailing how this “work” will be carried out. “Work” in your particular case would be the delivering, erecting, operating, dismantling and finally removal of your layout from the third parties premises.  

It may be just a “small” show, until that is, there is an accident and the H&S Inspectors are involved and take it from me they don`t take any prisoners. That`s when the important questions are asked; was the correct PPE being worn or used, where are the risk assessments and method statements, who filled them in, what are the highlighted risks, what steps were taken to mitigate those risks and who was responsible to ensure that this was safely carried out. How many incidents have been reported in the media recently where persons were fatally or seriously injured and no risk assessment was carried out, especially when it comes down to “not in a million years who had thought that would happen,” but it did!

It may be silly and liken to a nanny state to anybody, who during their working lives, have never been involved, especially in recent years, with this level of H&S legislation, but anybody who has, will be very much aware why there is a need for all this paperwork. And this has nothing to do whether we are in the EU or not, it was brought in 1974 to reduce the high number of accidents (and fatalities) throughout UK Industry, with later additions to cover ALL others persons involved in “work” related activities, ie yourselves.

You may find more increasingly that these forms will need to be completed for any show on third party premises, not only to adhere to the current H&S legislation, but for insurances purposes as well. I hope that this will not put you off exhibiting your layout for future shows, but I`m afraid it’s the way of the world nowadays. 

I totally understand all you are saying about H&S and all it entails, having been involved for many years on site installations etc*.  What I am concerned about is the assumption that I am the 'nominated' H&S person for our stand.  I am not.  I am not employed as such and, I doubt, is anyone else on other layouts likewise.  The form arrived out of the blue along with all its draconian red lettering.  If someone else will (and I foresee only one who may do this as the other 2 operators -workers? - are guests filling in for the usual team members who cannot attend for personal reasons) then that's fine.  My personal maxim is 'don't sign anything unless you know EXACTLY what the consequences might be'.  I don't know what the consequences might be if anyone I am 'responsible' for gets involved in any incident.

 

And please note that in my post above I did say that I fully agree with the use of Hi-Vi vests in this type of situation.  I'm not that much of a luddite!

 

It also looks as if, from your forecast of the future, I may have LOTS of free weekends coming up.

 

*EDIT - forgot to say that as a part of this I have sat through several 20 minute inductions for a 5 minute visit in areas that had no risk at all.

Edited March 16, 2017 by 5050

[kipford]

My question are Warners supplying the PPE? I know it is not expensive but suddenly with a week to go we have to pay out for equipment we may never need again.

[chris p bacon]

My question are Warners supplying the PPE? I know it is not expensive but suddenly with a week to go we have to pay out for equipment we may never need again.

No, it's not expensive. 

 

£4 from Screwfix

http://www.screwfix.com/p/hi-vis-waistcoat-yellow-large-x-large-52-chest/59401

 

Buy 10 and they're £3.30 each, has to be less than a van running over your foot.

[newbryford]

No, it's not expensive. 

 

£4 from Screwfix

http://www.screwfix.com/p/hi-vis-waistcoat-yellow-large-x-large-52-chest/59401

 

Buy 10 and they're £3.30 each, has to be less than a van running over your foot.

 

And then chuck it in the car afterwards.

 

I have one and guess what colour it is......

 

Yup - orange!

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited March 16, 2017 by newbryford