BBC article - Average age of UK trains

[Reorte]

I prefer having a buffet on the train, although the point about leaving your seat and finding everything nicked and the seat taken is a valid one. And of course it has to be worth doing. One thing you can't conveniently buy before the journey is a cup of tea for the middle of it, and attempts at doing tea on trolleys are invariably poor (presumably due to trouble keeping the water hot enough).

 

Age-wise though, so what? There's not much of a correlation between age and how pleasant a journey is or not, so as long as the stock hasn't reached the point where it's breaking down all the time (or costing a lot of effort and money to keep it from doing so) it's not really relevant. It's true I find most modern stock relatively unpleasant, but it'll be interesting to see what the new loco-hauled stock that TransPennine are supposed to be getting is like. It'll be better than a DMU, sure. Will be interesting to see if it's noticably more pleasant than an EMU. Of course other factors like seating layout play a big part (which isn't really age-related either).

[phil-b259]

I prefer having a buffet on the train, although the point about leaving your seat and finding everything nicked and the seat taken is a valid one. And of course it has to be worth doing. One thing you can't conveniently buy before the journey is a cup of tea for the middle of it, and attempts at doing tea on trolleys are invariably poor (presumably due to trouble keeping the water hot enough).

 

Age-wise though, so what? There's not much of a correlation between age and how pleasant a journey is or not, so as long as the stock hasn't reached the point where it's breaking down all the time (or costing a lot of effort and money to keep it from doing so) it's not really relevant. It's true I find most modern stock relatively unpleasant, but it'll be interesting to see what the new loco-hauled stock that TransPennine are supposed to be getting is like. It'll be better than a DMU, sure. Will be interesting to see if it's noticably more pleasant than an EMU. Of course other factors like seating layout play a big part (which isn't really age-related either).

 

I wouldn't get your hopes up too much. Just because it is a loco haulled coach you can still expect rock hard seats that don't line up with the windows with the majority in airline seating style. Of course with doors at the ends of the vehicles rather than the 1/3rd and 2/3rd position there should be less droughts and a more InterCity feel about the trains, but this will come at the expense of station dwell times - particularly at busy stations where the suburban door layout works best.

[wombatofludham]

The only parts of on train catering I miss are hot buttered toast from the Southern Region buffets and the old cowpat and flies giant choc chip cookies.  When I was allowed to travel first class on business the old BR full English was a delight but realistically it is not an experience many normals buying their own ticket have had.  Certainly had I not had the opportunity to travel first on business I would never have bought first class tickets for personal journeys.

 

Those travelling on expense accounts and free passes in first probably miss on board catering more than the normals travelling on a budget who would rather go to Subway or other branded food purveyors they know and keep their seat.  They probably don't even realise there may be on board catering until a crackly announcement is made over the p.a, by which time they've spent money in a station food outlet.

[The Johnster]

There were two linked articles on the BBC news website, one concerning the average age of stock and that the Caledonian Sleeper (presumably the Penzance as well but the article originated in Scotland) was 41 years old, and one about 'the trains nobody wants' the 142/3 'Pacers'.  Both were tainted by the 'new good old bad' thinking; the Caledonian Sleeper has arguably the best stock on the railway today in terms of ride and comfort.  Of course, any train designed to be sat on for a long distance is going to be more comfortable than a commuter sardine can (if you can get a seat!), and the articles were not always comparing like for like.  The Pacer article stressed the age of the units as if they were anything but appalling when they were first introduced. In fact they are a little better now after refurbs, but still dreadful and an expression of contempt by the London elite for us untermench oop north or on the Celtic fringes (that's certainly how it looks from here, whether it's true or not, and in a post-truth world perception is all important).  

 

There is nothing wrong with old trains well maintained, or new trains well maintained, if they are well built and suitable for their work in the first place.  If Hitachi 800/1s on the GWML are better than the Caledonian Sleeper, it will not be because they are new, it will be because they are better.

All stock must meet the required standards of impact resistance, so safety should not be part of the argument.  Pacers are awful because they were built that way, and have remained that way; as there is nothing intrinsically superior about something new because it is new, there is equally nothing intrinsically superior about something old because it old.

 

Reporting of Tangmere's unfortunate adventure at Royal Wootton Bassett quite rightly and fairly pointed out that, although the loco was 70 years old, it was fitted with all the safety equipment required by modern standards and fully safe (as fully safe as anything else, anyway) to be operated at speeds of up to 75mph on a main line.

 

So far as the Ffestiiog and Tal-y-Llyn's 100+ year old stock are concerned, these railways are subject to light railway orders and 25mp is not exceeded, so the terrifying images of those old Victorian photos should thankfully never recur.  The Ffestiniog vehicles are iron framed and very solidly built.  That sort of collision should never occur on a single line protected by Tyers block instruments (I'd have said 'does never' were it not for Abergele, which required the combined and  concurrent negligence of 6 different people, which I doubt can be designed out of any system), and the Ffestiniog, pre LRO, though of itself as a main line only smaller and ran in normal service at 40mph; the gravity slate trains at up to 70; all in complete safety.

 

New is only new.  Old is only old.  Good is only good.  Bad is only bad.  Anyone trying to convince you otherwise has a hidden agenda.

[The Stationmaster]

The only parts of on train catering I miss are hot buttered toast from the Southern Region buffets and the old cowpat and flies giant choc chip cookies.  When I was allowed to travel first class on business the old BR full English was a delight but realistically it is not an experience many normals buying their own ticket have had.  Certainly had I not had the opportunity to travel first on business I would never have bought first class tickets for personal journeys.

 

Those travelling on expense accounts and free passes in first probably miss on board catering more than the normals travelling on a budget who would rather go to Subway or other branded food purveyors they know and keep their seat.  They probably don't even realise there may be on board catering until a crackly announcement is made over the p.a, by which time they've spent money in a station food outlet.

 

Of course in order to enjoy the 'olde BR full English' - a superb breakfast by the way - there was no need at all to have a 1st Class ticket.  I think I consumed far more of such breakfasts travelling on a 2nd, or later 'Standard', class ticket than I ever did travelling on a 1st Class ticket and of course the same applies for a GWR Pullman breakfast although on some of the (few) trains which offer it there's no way you'd get in for dinner on a Standard Class ticket according to the catering crews.  In fact the last time I had breakfast on a GWR Pullman there were far more people travelling on Standard tickets who had breakfasts than those who had 1st Class tickets  so, from what I've seen, there's no need for any 'classist' comments aren't really relevant and neither are snidey comments about people who worked for them having passes.

[wombatofludham]

Except on the West Midlands Intercity services the morning restaurant car services were announced as "for first class ticket holders only", certainly when I was travelling.

 

For the vast majority of travellers the restaurant car was and still is irrelevant.

[jjb1970]

The BR breakfast was great. I remember in my younger days many people held two seemingly contradictory opinions of BR on-board catering, one concerning buffet offerings was rather negative and included many jokes about the infamous ham sandwiches, the other concerned restaurant services and was extremely positive.

[Iankirby]

I know that similar forums get very exercised about the relationships of windows to seats but I do wonder whether those who wish to look out of the window are a diminishing proportion of the travelling public since an increasing number of travellers on the trains I travel on seem to be glued to some electronic device, reading a book or simply asleep.

[caradoc]

I beg to disagree.  When HSTs first appeared the burger offer, together with the rellshes they had available, beat just about everything you could get anywhere on 'the High Street' with the exception of Bretts (an independent concern) in Oxford.  But things went downhill from there.

 

One thing I really do like is GWR's 'Pullman' service which is good quality catering  albeit at a premium price.  The 'Travelling Chef' idea - where you ate at your seat - was also very good but clearly FGW decided to go one better and make more money by offering a restaurant service and on fewer trains;  agreat shame really as in my experience of them the breakfasts served up by the Travelling Chef arrangement beat anything you could get anywhere on 'the High Street' while not being much more expensive.

 

Stationmaster, I agree that the HSTs were a step-change in train catering, however for many years after their introduction loco-hauled trains still had to make do with Mark 1 catering vehicles - Anyone remember the horrid orange plastic seats in some of them, and Maxpax coffee ? Anyway, in my 45 years of train travel as an enthusiast, then as an employee, and now just an enthusiast again, I only once had a full meal on a train (Trout on the Cornish Riviera in the 80s as I recall). Otherwise it was a sandwich or a burger. 

 

Although I have the great good fortune to have free first class rail travel, I am not entitled to food on trains, therefore I buy at the station before boarding, and the choice at somewhere like Glasgow Central is greater than any train catering service could, or should be expected, to provide.

One of the side dishes which I frequently get at Boots is 'Muki beans with Houmus and Sunflower Seeds'; I don 't think any British train has ever supplied that !

 

I also remember Brett's in Oxford; Sometimes on the way home from a late shift at Reading I would get my dinner there, however there was often quite a wait, and I still had to cycle home. Alternatively I used a Chinese takeaway, however they supplied paper bags, and of course one night the food container leaked and as I was cycling home fell though the bottom of the bag onto the road ! I was not happy.

Such were the joys of shift work on the railway.

 

(Sorry for going slightly off-topic).

[PhilH]

I know that similar forums get very exercised about the relationships of windows to seats but I do wonder whether those who wish to look out of the window are a diminishing proportion of the travelling public since an increasing number of travellers on the trains I travel on seem to be glued to some electronic device, reading a book or simply asleep.

...or standing up.

[The Johnster]

...or standing up.

 

I'm not sure people ever looked out of the windows much, and most of them were of the opinion that one bit of countryside looks pretty much the same as most of the other bits.  At least the iPhone generation are doing something (admittedly not very much, but something), and not just staring into space.

[frobisher]

I think the 444 and 450s are running Windows 95.

More likely NT 4.0, which looks like 95, and is actually robust enough for embedded systems.

[Zomboid]

I'm not sure people ever looked out of the windows much, and most of them were of the opinion that one bit of countryside looks pretty much the same as most of the other bits. At least the iPhone generation are doing something (admittedly not very much, but something), and not just staring into space.

It's not the view for me (as a commuter it's always the same scenery, and often dark), but the feeling of claustrophobia that having a plastic wall rather then a window creates.

When I'm on a new journey that I haven't done before/often, I like to watch the scenery. Though slightly annoyingly, my OH usually insists on the window seat, where she then reads her book and ignores the view...

[Reorte]

I'm not sure people ever looked out of the windows much, and most of them were of the opinion that one bit of countryside looks pretty much the same as most of the other bits.  At least the iPhone generation are doing something (admittedly not very much, but something), and not just staring into space.

True but I find it rather depressing that people think like that. It's very pleasant looking out and watching the scenery go by, at least on those odd occasions you can see it through the prison-like palisade fencing and the wall of greenery.

[Keith J]

During the One Anglia days I regularly travelled from Stowmarket to Bristol on a Monday morning and used to have a full English breakfast in the One restaurant coach, or sometimes lunch if I travelled later in the day. You had the benefit of a first class seat for the entire journey to Liverpool St, as there was only one sitting, for the price of a standard class ticket plus around £12 for the cost of the breakfast. Much cheaper than a first class ticket and the food was excellent. The restaurant coach was regularly full so it appeared the demand was there and there was much disappointment when the service ceased. I seem to remember that One Anglia decided they could make more money by having a buffet with standard class seating hence the reason why the restaurant coach was withdrawn.

[corneliuslundie]

I am interested in comments about on-board catering being profitable. I was under the impression that it had always been loss making but helped to provide an overall package that was more attractive, and therefore worth the cost.

Presumably those who write article about average ages of rolling stock are related to those politicians who want everyone's exam results to be above average! If the avwerage is about 20 years, then with a reasonably normal distribution of ages the oldest will be about 40 years.

And I quite like the 158s on our line - and the magnificent scenery, apparently one of the ten most scenic runs in the country (I don't think it was the world), but others on here are right, in that many passengers never even look out the window to see what is there.

Jonathan

[Fat Controller]

I am interested in comments about on-board catering being profitable. I was under the impression that it had always been loss making but helped to provide an overall package that was more attractive, and therefore worth the cost.

Presumably those who write article about average ages of rolling stock are related to those politicians who want everyone's exam results to be above average! If the avwerage is about 20 years, then with a reasonably normal distribution of ages the oldest will be about 40 years.

And I quite like the 158s on our line - and the magnificent scenery, apparently one of the ten most scenic runs in the country (I don't think it was the world), but others on here are right, in that many passengers never even look out the window to see what is there.

Jonathan

It was the world!

[lmsforever]

The BBC are having a go at all aspects of our railways this week its fares why is it cheaper on the continent lots of interviews with reps of pressure groups and some odd comments.Tonight an American said it was better in the USA and the reporter believed her overall its a storm in a tea cup or upset in the ticket office.

[Glorious NSE]

Tonight an American said it was better in the USA 

 

You probably get more personal space, but then if we only ran a train every other day as they do on some routes you'd get less overcrowding here too...

[Davexoc]

The BBC are having a go at all aspects of our railways this week its fares why is it cheaper on the continent lots of interviews with reps of pressure groups and some odd comments.Tonight an American said it was better in the USA and the reporter believed her overall its a storm in a tea cup or upset in the ticket office.

I used to occasionally work with an American who swore by our trains, saying theirs weren't a patch on ours.

I have always found the Dutch system good, double-decked you can see for miles, and mostly have superb bus interchanges too.

Then Barcelona to Valencia, about three hours total journey whether you take the train, fly or drive, I know which I would go for, and I wouldn't want a pillar as the coastal views are great.

 

Dave

[SwissRailPassion]

On topic

 

I read the article in the Times and almost every sentence contained inaccurate and misleading information. Does anyone care about this?

[pete_mcfarlane]

It's a staple news story every January when the fares go up. 

[Zomboid]

And every July (or some summer month) because that's when the relevant official inflation figure comes out.

[cal.n]

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38676406

 

Not more...

[Talltim]

That one seems fairer, and points most of the blame at the government's stupid 'no-growth' franchise agreements