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Passengers in Coaches ? Where are the 1:1 photo's


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As most of my interest is in the Pre-Grpouping era, and I can't see a logical place for this item elsewhere....
 

I was checking that the height of the seating in my carriages I'm completing at present (12 of them) , will place the people at a more or less correct height when looked at through the windows.
I'm of the opinion that most model railways have the passengers sat to high.
In some of my previous stock, I seem to remember I had to lower the figures somewhat to get a height for the shoulders relative to the bottom of the windows....
Apart from a few photo's of LNWR Steam Rail-Motors showing passengers, I realised I couldn't find any prototype photo's of people in carriages, and I have a reasonable number of pre-grouping books to check through. 

 

Now I seem to recall there was a Topic or two on RMweb about the lack of passengers in carriages on layouts - though the Topics are hiding from me at present.

Thus, any proper photo's of coaches - 1 : 1 scale - showing passengers seated in them would be appreciated.

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As most of my interest is in the Pre-Grpouping era, and I can't see a logical place for this item elsewhere....

 

I was checking that the height of the seating in my carriages I'm completing at present (12 of them) , will place the people at a more or less correct height when looked at through the windows.

I'm of the opinion that most model railways have the passengers sat to high.

In some of my previous stock, I seem to remember I had to lower the figures somewhat to get a height for the shoulders relative to the bottom of the windows....

Apart from a few photo's of LNWR Steam Rail-Motors showing passengers, I realised I couldn't find any prototype photo's of people in carriages, and I have a reasonable number of pre-grouping books to check through. 

 

Now I seem to recall there was a Topic or two on RMweb about the lack of passengers in carriages on layouts - though the Topics are hiding from me at present.

 

Thus, any proper photo's of coaches - 1 : 1 scale - showing passengers seated in them would be appreciated.

 

Interesting.

 

I'll have a look.

 

Seated figures often seem to need surgery to remove everything below the ankle before they fit carriages.

 

In part I suspect this is because the floors of RTR coaches might sit too high.  It is also worth considering that many nominally 1/76 figure ranges are overscale.  Here I think Andrew Stadden's seated passengers are your friends because he is scrupulous concerning the height.

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Funily enough I was looking for the exact same thing myself a little while ago. I was trying to find details of the interior of some carriages in use. I could find very few.

 

I can only presume that the combination of darker interior and mobile location made photography difficult.

 

Sorry! Not much help.

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Try  looking  up  preserved  railway  photos,  a  few  have  grouping  &  pregrouping  carriages  in  use.

Generally  a  passengers  head  will  be  around  the  middle  to  top  third  of  a  window.

Shoulders  normally  visible above  the  bottom  of the  window

Luggage rack  height  is normally  just  above  the window  top.

 

Pete

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"Exactly, my dear Watson!".....Just love the drawings, I think they are all illustrations by Sidney Padgett, from sometime around 1890,  for the Strand Magazine??

I well remember the first one shown being used in either the "Radio Times" or "TV Times" for the then forthcoming series of "Sherlock Holmes" (starring Peter Cushing  and Nigel Stock) circa 1968.

Now back to the story.....

 

Regards,

Sigtech  (Steve)

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I think prototype photographs of passengers are rare because of the nature of early photography.

 

Look at any from the era and they are either posed or the have "ghost" figures. Like the famous one from the Festiniog. 

 

https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Princess#/media/File:P%26p1871frith5118.jpg

 

 

But I can't see there being that much difference from the stock that they used until the modern era. Mainly because people haven't really changed. Peoples sizes haven't changed that much. Probably more giants and fatties now days though. :P

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

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I have a Cambrian 6-wheel coach drawing with a side view which includes the seats. The squab measures 1' 2.5" below the window line. Any use?

 

Nigel

That's a pretty similar dimension to what I had worked out on some CR GA's in Mike Williams' seminal work on CR coaches. The average seated person's shoulder will be just in the upper half of the window.

 

Jim

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...... The average seated person's shoulder will be just in the upper half of the window..

Well, I've dug out three views of Railmotors, and their seats are 'as near as the same' as ordinary coaches.

I'm not convinced the shoulder is at mid-point or higher in these windows.

On the book on LNWR 30' 1" Carriages, the height from the floor to the bottom of the glass in the windows is circa 2' 10.5", the height of the seat squab where it meets the back (it's slightly lower there than at the front - supporting the knee area) is 1' 6".

I'm sat on kitchen chair at present, and the seat is 1' 6" off the floor, add on my height to the shoulders and that is 3' 3".

 

Thus from floor to top of shoulder is 3' 3" sat down on a kitchen chair...

Height of bottom edge of window in LNWR Coaches is 2' 10.5", that's approx., 6" above the bottom edge of the windows.

The Caley must have had some low windows or high seat cushions. :jester:

post-6979-0-28760500-1496451418.jpg

 

post-6979-0-05691800-1496451419.jpg

 

post-6979-0-46342300-1496451430.jpg

 

I think one of the original points I was trying to make is that most models seem to have their passengers sat to high.......

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This photo of one of my grandsons, in a carriage on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, was taken when he was nearly 15 and was probably about 5'8". I suppose that one only has to look at where the seat back finishes, to see where they expected the heads on their tallest passengers would reach.

post-14351-0-94976700-1496465573_thumb.jpg

This shot inside the LNWR observation coach on the Bluebell Railway, is probably atypical but does show a relatively low seat height

post-14351-0-01555100-1496465577_thumb.jpg

Edited by phil_sutters
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Bear in mind that people were shorter in the first quarter of the 20th century. In particular, urban, working-class men tended to be shorter than middle-class men. It was noted during WW1 that the junior officers were often taller than the men they led. Therefore, one might predict the heads behind first-class windows to be higher up than those behind third-class lights.

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Ah, now we're really getting into the details - always good fun. 

 

Edit: My original data here wasn't very useful and potentially misleading as it showed height by year of birth. Apologies. Perhaps this article is more useful, it includes men and women's average height in the UK in 1914 and 2014: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/07/26/british-overtake-americans-after-growing-11cm-in-100-years/

Edited by Mikkel
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Soft seats, model figures with long backs, and the floors too high in model coaches, all leads to figures looking a bit odd in coaches. Seats are generally a bit high in moulded seats in kits etc, I find they have to be lowered quite a bit.

 

Someone else collects Sherlock Holmes then? I have the lot, the Strands and Colliers in a large collection of Victorian magazines in bound copies, gathered by accident as I collect the "Rivals of Sherlock Holmes" as defined by Sir Hugh Greene in his books about the Rivals, Art work is a speciality, originals almost impossible now, and fakes abound the market.

 

If you want really dedicated railway stories, try Hazel Thorpe, by Victor Whitechurch, in "Thrilling stories of the Railways", as eccentric a detective as ever was dreamt up.

 

I see that a new version of The murder on the Orient Express is coming out later this year, with Kenneth Branagh as Poirot, but the shots of him from the film preview look decidedly unlike any description Agatha Christie supplied. An odd story to try to retell as once read the plot is obvious....and I am not giving it away!

 

There are of course lots of pictures of Passengers in it!!!

 

A recommended read (it's on the net), is the Dr Thorndyke Short Story Mystery " The Blue Sequin" set in a sealed Railway Carriage, as Illustrated by HM Brock. You simply will not know who did it!  Written by the only real rival of Conan Doyle, R.A. Freeman.

post-6750-0-27576200-1496493139.jpg

Stephen.

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I recall a couple of boastful tales from long ago, though not Conan Doyle..

One, when non-corridor coaches where often used on long distance Journeys....

A Lady and a Gentleman from the Colonies were sharing a compartment, but the train wasn't stopping and the Gentleman needed to relieve himself, so, asking the lady to look away,

he lowered the window and passed water, but he remained there for some time.
Eventually the lady asked, without looking, 'Are you OK",  

"Yes, but I don't know what to do with this mailbag...".

 

Another tale of a similar ilk, 
Couple going on Honeymoon where in a sleeping carriage, bunks either side and their tickets meant they only had the top bunks, 
He whispered across to her "Why don't you come across to my Bunk",

She asked "How", He said "I've got something here you can crawl across on",

A voice from the bunk below whispered "... and how's she going to get back?"....

 

I feel a moderator coming along.....  :nono: 
 

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Soft seats, model figures with long backs, and the floors too high in model coaches, all leads to figures looking a bit odd in coaches. Seats are generally a bit high in moulded seats in kits etc, I find they have to be lowered quite a bit.

 

Someone else collects Sherlock Holmes then? I have the lot, the Strands and Colliers in a large collection of Victorian magazines in bound copies, gathered by accident as I collect the "Rivals of Sherlock Holmes" as defined by Sir Hugh Greene in his books about the Rivals, Art work is a speciality, originals almost impossible now, and fakes abound the market.

 

If you want really dedicated railway stories, try Hazel Thorpe, by Victor Whitechurch, in "Thrilling stories of the Railways", as eccentric a detective as ever was dreamt up.

 

I see that a new version of The murder on the Orient Express is coming out later this year, with Kenneth Branagh as Poirot, but the shots of him from the film preview look decidedly unlike any description Agatha Christie supplied. An odd story to try to retell as once read the plot is obvious....and I am not giving it away!

 

There are of course lots of pictures of Passengers in it!!!

 

A recommended read (it's on the net), is the Dr Thorndyke Short Story Mystery " The Blue Sequin" set in a sealed Railway Carriage, as Illustrated by HM Brock. You simply will not know who did it!  Written by the only real rival of Conan Doyle, R.A. Freeman.

attachicon.gifimage-6.jpg

Stephen.

 

Am I alone in finding this particular illustration unhelpful in answering the OP's question?

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A recommended read (it's on the net), is the Dr Thorndyke Short Story Mystery " The Blue Sequin" set in a sealed Railway Carriage, as Illustrated by HM Brock. You simply will not know who did it!  Written by the only real rival of Conan Doyle, R.A. Freeman.

attachicon.gifimage-6.jpg

The fate of many model passengers when the coach roof is firmly glued in place, but the glue on the passengers bum gives way!

 

Am I alone in finding this particular illustration unhelpful in answering the OP's question?

Since when has any RMweb discussion of more than a few posts stayed on topic all the way through?

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Am I alone in finding this particular illustration unhelpful in answering the OP's question?

No your not alone, and it seems my mind is wandering further than I thought ....

All I recall is I was at the keyboard and looking at the Sherlock Homes sketches, I was reminded of these two quips....

At the time I posted, I was then on my way out to a social event, finally got back at 3am this morning,

being retired is not all it's cracked up to be... :jester:

My friends say my mind has a tendency to wander, not helped in conversations with my deafness,

thus I often come into a conversation with some totally different point - much to their amusement, and my frustration.

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Mikkel, Well I don't think I've seen this photo before, surprisingly, as I've had an interest in the LNWR since about 1965 - after reading about Geoff William's 'Aylesbury' Layout..

Thank you for the link.

As it's a Getty Image, I'm assuming it's not from the NRM collection, though it looks like an official LNWR photo,  unless it was to do with the Pullman Car company.  

It should inspire me finish the interior detailing of my Dia. 9, WCJS Diner, after 30+ years empty inside.

And to confirm Compound2632's thought that my mind wanders, it occurs to me that when I took an interest in the LNWR in 1965, if not before, that was some 43 years after the Grouping,

I'm still modelling the LNWR some 52 years later.

 

post-6979-0-30421900-1496573014_thumb.jpg

Edited by Penlan
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So hopefully these might help ...

 

We were at the SVR yesterday so SWMBO kindly agreed to co-operate....

 

Firstly in post war Hawkesworth excursion brake (BSO) 650...

 

post-7138-0-45450000-1496573008_thumb.jpg

 

post-7138-0-40128500-1496573021_thumb.jpg

 

And then in pre grouping GNR brake Composite (BCK) 2701

 

post-7138-0-76905600-1496573250_thumb.jpg

 

She was a bit dubious about any amputations to make her fit however!

 

On a general point it did appear as if the seat bases are somewhat higher in ex LMS stock

 

Cheers

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

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Soft seats, model figures with long backs, and the floors too high in model coaches, all leads to figures looking a bit odd in coaches. Seats are generally a bit high in moulded seats in kits etc, I find they have to be lowered quite a bit.

 

Someone else collects Sherlock Holmes then? I have the lot, the Strands and Colliers in a large collection of Victorian magazines in bound copies, gathered by accident as I collect the "Rivals of Sherlock Holmes" as defined by Sir Hugh Greene in his books about the Rivals, Art work is a speciality, originals almost impossible now, and fakes abound the market.

 

If you want really dedicated railway stories, try Hazel Thorpe, by Victor Whitechurch, in "Thrilling stories of the Railways", as eccentric a detective as ever was dreamt up.

 

I see that a new version of The murder on the Orient Express is coming out later this year, with Kenneth Branagh as Poirot, but the shots of him from the film preview look decidedly unlike any description Agatha Christie supplied. An odd story to try to retell as once read the plot is obvious....and I am not giving it away!

 

There are of course lots of pictures of Passengers in it!!!

 

A recommended read (it's on the net), is the Dr Thorndyke Short Story Mystery " The Blue Sequin" set in a sealed Railway Carriage, as Illustrated by HM Brock. You simply will not know who did it!  Written by the only real rival of Conan Doyle, R.A. Freeman.

attachicon.gifimage-6.jpg

Stephen.

 

Fascinating stuff, and I am grateful to learn of some of these authors; some trails to follow up there.

 

I believe some "Thrilling stories of the Railways" were dramatized on BBC radio.

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