Penlan Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 As most of my interest is in the Pre-Grpouping era, and I can't see a logical place for this item elsewhere.... I was checking that the height of the seating in my carriages I'm completing at present (12 of them) , will place the people at a more or less correct height when looked at through the windows.I'm of the opinion that most model railways have the passengers sat to high.In some of my previous stock, I seem to remember I had to lower the figures somewhat to get a height for the shoulders relative to the bottom of the windows....Apart from a few photo's of LNWR Steam Rail-Motors showing passengers, I realised I couldn't find any prototype photo's of people in carriages, and I have a reasonable number of pre-grouping books to check through. Now I seem to recall there was a Topic or two on RMweb about the lack of passengers in carriages on layouts - though the Topics are hiding from me at present.Thus, any proper photo's of coaches - 1 : 1 scale - showing passengers seated in them would be appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 As most of my interest is in the Pre-Grpouping era, and I can't see a logical place for this item elsewhere.... I was checking that the height of the seating in my carriages I'm completing at present (12 of them) , will place the people at a more or less correct height when looked at through the windows. I'm of the opinion that most model railways have the passengers sat to high. In some of my previous stock, I seem to remember I had to lower the figures somewhat to get a height for the shoulders relative to the bottom of the windows.... Apart from a few photo's of LNWR Steam Rail-Motors showing passengers, I realised I couldn't find any prototype photo's of people in carriages, and I have a reasonable number of pre-grouping books to check through. Now I seem to recall there was a Topic or two on RMweb about the lack of passengers in carriages on layouts - though the Topics are hiding from me at present. Thus, any proper photo's of coaches - 1 : 1 scale - showing passengers seated in them would be appreciated. Interesting. I'll have a look. Seated figures often seem to need surgery to remove everything below the ankle before they fit carriages. In part I suspect this is because the floors of RTR coaches might sit too high. It is also worth considering that many nominally 1/76 figure ranges are overscale. Here I think Andrew Stadden's seated passengers are your friends because he is scrupulous concerning the height. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Argos Posted May 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 31, 2017 Funily enough I was looking for the exact same thing myself a little while ago. I was trying to find details of the interior of some carriages in use. I could find very few. I can only presume that the combination of darker interior and mobile location made photography difficult. Sorry! Not much help. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWCR Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Try looking up preserved railway photos, a few have grouping & pregrouping carriages in use. Generally a passengers head will be around the middle to top third of a window. Shoulders normally visible above the bottom of the window Luggage rack height is normally just above the window top. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted May 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 31, 2017 Pete is right about preserved railways - and 2701 on the SVR is as pre grouping as they come... http://www.lnersvrcoachfund.org.uk/gnr_2701_launch_day_gallery.html Hope that helps Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Try http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/coaches/416/416pic_02.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Or ... 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigtech Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 "Exactly, my dear Watson!".....Just love the drawings, I think they are all illustrations by Sidney Padgett, from sometime around 1890, for the Strand Magazine?? I well remember the first one shown being used in either the "Radio Times" or "TV Times" for the then forthcoming series of "Sherlock Holmes" (starring Peter Cushing and Nigel Stock) circa 1968. Now back to the story..... Regards, Sigtech (Steve) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I think prototype photographs of passengers are rare because of the nature of early photography. Look at any from the era and they are either posed or the have "ghost" figures. Like the famous one from the Festiniog. https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Princess#/media/File:P%26p1871frith5118.jpg But I can't see there being that much difference from the stock that they used until the modern era. Mainly because people haven't really changed. Peoples sizes haven't changed that much. Probably more giants and fatties now days though. Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NCB Posted June 2, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2017 I have a Cambrian 6-wheel coach drawing with a side view which includes the seats. The squab measures 1' 2.5" below the window line. Any use? Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley Jim Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 I have a Cambrian 6-wheel coach drawing with a side view which includes the seats. The squab measures 1' 2.5" below the window line. Any use? Nigel That's a pretty similar dimension to what I had worked out on some CR GA's in Mike Williams' seminal work on CR coaches. The average seated person's shoulder will be just in the upper half of the window. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted June 3, 2017 Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 ...... The average seated person's shoulder will be just in the upper half of the window.. Well, I've dug out three views of Railmotors, and their seats are 'as near as the same' as ordinary coaches. I'm not convinced the shoulder is at mid-point or higher in these windows. On the book on LNWR 30' 1" Carriages, the height from the floor to the bottom of the glass in the windows is circa 2' 10.5", the height of the seat squab where it meets the back (it's slightly lower there than at the front - supporting the knee area) is 1' 6". I'm sat on kitchen chair at present, and the seat is 1' 6" off the floor, add on my height to the shoulders and that is 3' 3". Thus from floor to top of shoulder is 3' 3" sat down on a kitchen chair... Height of bottom edge of window in LNWR Coaches is 2' 10.5", that's approx., 6" above the bottom edge of the windows. The Caley must have had some low windows or high seat cushions. I think one of the original points I was trying to make is that most models seem to have their passengers sat to high....... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted June 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) This photo of one of my grandsons, in a carriage on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, was taken when he was nearly 15 and was probably about 5'8". I suppose that one only has to look at where the seat back finishes, to see where they expected the heads on their tallest passengers would reach. This shot inside the LNWR observation coach on the Bluebell Railway, is probably atypical but does show a relatively low seat height Edited June 3, 2017 by phil_sutters Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted June 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2017 This NER example isn't ideal, but it avoids the problems of posed photos and gives that rare "passing by" view: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/42/9f/ad/429fade94f871cf61b025b872aa902f3.jpg This LNWR example may interest Penlan, but were seats heigher in dining coaches? http://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/two-female-passengers-eating-a-meal-in-a-london-north-news-photo/90760366?esource=SEO_GIS_CDN_Redirect#two-female-passengers-eating-a-meal-in-a-london-north-western-railway-picture-id90760366 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Bear in mind that people were shorter in the first quarter of the 20th century. In particular, urban, working-class men tended to be shorter than middle-class men. It was noted during WW1 that the junior officers were often taller than the men they led. Therefore, one might predict the heads behind first-class windows to be higher up than those behind third-class lights. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted June 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) Ah, now we're really getting into the details - always good fun. Edit: My original data here wasn't very useful and potentially misleading as it showed height by year of birth. Apologies. Perhaps this article is more useful, it includes men and women's average height in the UK in 1914 and 2014: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/07/26/british-overtake-americans-after-growing-11cm-in-100-years/ Edited June 3, 2017 by Mikkel 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Soft seats, model figures with long backs, and the floors too high in model coaches, all leads to figures looking a bit odd in coaches. Seats are generally a bit high in moulded seats in kits etc, I find they have to be lowered quite a bit. Someone else collects Sherlock Holmes then? I have the lot, the Strands and Colliers in a large collection of Victorian magazines in bound copies, gathered by accident as I collect the "Rivals of Sherlock Holmes" as defined by Sir Hugh Greene in his books about the Rivals, Art work is a speciality, originals almost impossible now, and fakes abound the market. If you want really dedicated railway stories, try Hazel Thorpe, by Victor Whitechurch, in "Thrilling stories of the Railways", as eccentric a detective as ever was dreamt up. I see that a new version of The murder on the Orient Express is coming out later this year, with Kenneth Branagh as Poirot, but the shots of him from the film preview look decidedly unlike any description Agatha Christie supplied. An odd story to try to retell as once read the plot is obvious....and I am not giving it away! There are of course lots of pictures of Passengers in it!!! A recommended read (it's on the net), is the Dr Thorndyke Short Story Mystery " The Blue Sequin" set in a sealed Railway Carriage, as Illustrated by HM Brock. You simply will not know who did it! Written by the only real rival of Conan Doyle, R.A. Freeman. Stephen. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted June 3, 2017 Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 I recall a couple of boastful tales from long ago, though not Conan Doyle.. One, when non-corridor coaches where often used on long distance Journeys.... A Lady and a Gentleman from the Colonies were sharing a compartment, but the train wasn't stopping and the Gentleman needed to relieve himself, so, asking the lady to look away, he lowered the window and passed water, but he remained there for some time.Eventually the lady asked, without looking, 'Are you OK", "Yes, but I don't know what to do with this mailbag...". Another tale of a similar ilk, Couple going on Honeymoon where in a sleeping carriage, bunks either side and their tickets meant they only had the top bunks, He whispered across to her "Why don't you come across to my Bunk", She asked "How", He said "I've got something here you can crawl across on", A voice from the bunk below whispered "... and how's she going to get back?".... I feel a moderator coming along..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted June 3, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 3, 2017 Soft seats, model figures with long backs, and the floors too high in model coaches, all leads to figures looking a bit odd in coaches. Seats are generally a bit high in moulded seats in kits etc, I find they have to be lowered quite a bit. Someone else collects Sherlock Holmes then? I have the lot, the Strands and Colliers in a large collection of Victorian magazines in bound copies, gathered by accident as I collect the "Rivals of Sherlock Holmes" as defined by Sir Hugh Greene in his books about the Rivals, Art work is a speciality, originals almost impossible now, and fakes abound the market. If you want really dedicated railway stories, try Hazel Thorpe, by Victor Whitechurch, in "Thrilling stories of the Railways", as eccentric a detective as ever was dreamt up. I see that a new version of The murder on the Orient Express is coming out later this year, with Kenneth Branagh as Poirot, but the shots of him from the film preview look decidedly unlike any description Agatha Christie supplied. An odd story to try to retell as once read the plot is obvious....and I am not giving it away! There are of course lots of pictures of Passengers in it!!! A recommended read (it's on the net), is the Dr Thorndyke Short Story Mystery " The Blue Sequin" set in a sealed Railway Carriage, as Illustrated by HM Brock. You simply will not know who did it! Written by the only real rival of Conan Doyle, R.A. Freeman. image-6.jpg Stephen. Am I alone in finding this particular illustration unhelpful in answering the OP's question? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted June 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2017 Have you seen the OP's response at #18 ? He doesn't seem too worried about the relevance! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 A recommended read (it's on the net), is the Dr Thorndyke Short Story Mystery " The Blue Sequin" set in a sealed Railway Carriage, as Illustrated by HM Brock. You simply will not know who did it! Written by the only real rival of Conan Doyle, R.A. Freeman. image-6.jpg The fate of many model passengers when the coach roof is firmly glued in place, but the glue on the passengers bum gives way! Am I alone in finding this particular illustration unhelpful in answering the OP's question? Since when has any RMweb discussion of more than a few posts stayed on topic all the way through? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted June 4, 2017 Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 Am I alone in finding this particular illustration unhelpful in answering the OP's question? No your not alone, and it seems my mind is wandering further than I thought .... All I recall is I was at the keyboard and looking at the Sherlock Homes sketches, I was reminded of these two quips.... At the time I posted, I was then on my way out to a social event, finally got back at 3am this morning, being retired is not all it's cracked up to be... My friends say my mind has a tendency to wander, not helped in conversations with my deafness, thus I often come into a conversation with some totally different point - much to their amusement, and my frustration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted June 4, 2017 Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 (edited) This LNWR example may interest Penlan, but were seats heigher in dining coaches? http://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/two-female-passengers-eating-a-meal-in-a-london-north-news-photo/90760366?esource=SEO_GIS_CDN_Redirect#two-female-passengers-eating-a-meal-in-a-london-north-western-railway-picture-id90760366 Mikkel, Well I don't think I've seen this photo before, surprisingly, as I've had an interest in the LNWR since about 1965 - after reading about Geoff William's 'Aylesbury' Layout.. Thank you for the link. As it's a Getty Image, I'm assuming it's not from the NRM collection, though it looks like an official LNWR photo, unless it was to do with the Pullman Car company. It should inspire me finish the interior detailing of my Dia. 9, WCJS Diner, after 30+ years empty inside. And to confirm Compound2632's thought that my mind wanders, it occurs to me that when I took an interest in the LNWR in 1965, if not before, that was some 43 years after the Grouping, I'm still modelling the LNWR some 52 years later. Edited June 4, 2017 by Penlan 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted June 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 4, 2017 So hopefully these might help ... We were at the SVR yesterday so SWMBO kindly agreed to co-operate.... Firstly in post war Hawkesworth excursion brake (BSO) 650... And then in pre grouping GNR brake Composite (BCK) 2701 She was a bit dubious about any amputations to make her fit however! On a general point it did appear as if the seat bases are somewhat higher in ex LMS stock Cheers Phil 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Soft seats, model figures with long backs, and the floors too high in model coaches, all leads to figures looking a bit odd in coaches. Seats are generally a bit high in moulded seats in kits etc, I find they have to be lowered quite a bit. Someone else collects Sherlock Holmes then? I have the lot, the Strands and Colliers in a large collection of Victorian magazines in bound copies, gathered by accident as I collect the "Rivals of Sherlock Holmes" as defined by Sir Hugh Greene in his books about the Rivals, Art work is a speciality, originals almost impossible now, and fakes abound the market. If you want really dedicated railway stories, try Hazel Thorpe, by Victor Whitechurch, in "Thrilling stories of the Railways", as eccentric a detective as ever was dreamt up. I see that a new version of The murder on the Orient Express is coming out later this year, with Kenneth Branagh as Poirot, but the shots of him from the film preview look decidedly unlike any description Agatha Christie supplied. An odd story to try to retell as once read the plot is obvious....and I am not giving it away! There are of course lots of pictures of Passengers in it!!! A recommended read (it's on the net), is the Dr Thorndyke Short Story Mystery " The Blue Sequin" set in a sealed Railway Carriage, as Illustrated by HM Brock. You simply will not know who did it! Written by the only real rival of Conan Doyle, R.A. Freeman. image-6.jpg Stephen. Fascinating stuff, and I am grateful to learn of some of these authors; some trails to follow up there. I believe some "Thrilling stories of the Railways" were dramatized on BBC radio. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now