Hornby R6828 HFA Hopper Wagons, Barry - Three Wagon Pack

[Ian Hargrave]

Not necessarily, if you bought the wagons on the strength of the box artwork and price, you would reasonably expect them not to be inferior railroad models, how many of us unpack and open sealed rolling stock in the shop?, locomotives maybe as they may have been test run. The various Hornby triple packs I have bought based on the above premise have turned out to be satisfactory, so why are Hornby now running a con?. Very fair of Hattons to offer a full refund IMHO.

 

Mike.

 

I think it's a mistake...an avoidable one to be sure.....to use the term "con" is a bit extreme...

[caradoc]

Hattons are advertising a single Railroad MGR wagon at a pre-order price of £8, so if Hornby are still expecting people to pay nearly £50 for three, which don't even have the canopy as advertised, they are taking the proverbial. They will end up with very disappointed (if not furious) customers, which is the last thing they need.

[The Dorset Wanderer]

This is not a Hornsby specific problem- deal with any Chinese manufacturer and they will try it on from time to time. Repeat orders may not be inspected- approx 400 dollars a day plus expenses may not prove economic sense. So this happens. The difficult bit is reclaiming cost from manufacturers.

Steve

[Classsix T]

The (arris covering) caveat on high street goods is usually "contents may differ from those illustrated." Fine for many items but as Hornby make two similar products and their clientele is rather more selective, this clearly is rather more complicated and not usual.

 

I'll cut Phil some slack in his opinion, but the last time I bought a triple wagon pack, you couldn't tell what the contents were without de-boxing. And why would "we" or Hattons need to, safe in the knowledge that there's a hi-spec model (as opposed to a patently Railroad version) on the box art and in the advertising?

 

This isn't FUBAR, SNAFU perhaps, but Hornby need to fess up and admit an error between them and the factory pronto. What happens between those two parties after that to claw back inevitable costs is between them.

 

Hornby then need to make this right with the market. Correct their website description for starters...a sheet of Railroad stickers posted to retailers to plaster over stock on retailers shelves?!

 

C6T.

[phil-b259]

I expect them to accept responsibility for the error which in my case the trader has done albeit this being a Hornby issue.

 

Your second paragraph is interesting. If you were to put down a deposit on a Ford ST3 based on the salesroom brochure at £30k, would you be okay getting a standard Ford focus which is worth £13k based on the premise that it's alright even though its not as high quality, it's not dangerous, its not something completely different and it runs quite well....I don't think so.

The point is the item as advertised is different to what I purchased on the premise of.

 

You are missing the point.

 

While you might be extremely annoyed, in the example you give you are under no legal obligation to accept the Standard Focus because when it arrives - its not what you have pre-ordered. Its got nothing to do with the specifics of the product in front of you but simply address the fact that it is not what you ordered. The legislation is quite clear - if you enter a contract to purchase an item - be it a car or a set of model railway wagons and the end product does not meet the the agreed / advertised / promised specification when it physically turns up, you are entitled to reject it for a full refund. What you cannot do under the legislation is stamp your feet and demand that the retailer go and order the ST3 instead or indeed lower the price you pay for you to take the inferior model*.

 

The law recognises mistakes can happen - and offers two remedies, either the correct product is sourced OR the customer gets a full refund. There is no obligation to do one or the other, though naturally with lots of consumer goods manufacturers take the view that replacement with the correct product is better. However for things that are made on the basis of short production runs (like model railway products or some clothes brands) it is clearly impractical to replace the item with the correct one and a refund is the only feasible option.

 

Similarly as regards advertising, the law recognises that manufacturers / retailers can use ore-production / artists samples / etc to encourage customers to pre-order and that these. However once the item physically arrives then if it is found to not be as advertised, then revised advertising should be produced to reflect what is actually for sale.

 

Purchases made online come under a different set of rules to those in store where the purchaser has in theory the opportunity to check certain things. Thus the law does expect the potential purchaser to take certain steps - visually examining the product carefully before handing over the money for example. If the product is contained within packaging and that packaging needs to be opened then the purchaser should ask the retailer to open it for them so they may inspect the merchandise. If the retailer rejects such a request (which they are perfectly entitled to do) and the customer can only base their decision on what they can see on the box then the customer has grater rights to redress than if they were able to inspect it properly before purchase.

 

So with respect to this wagon pack (which I presume comes with a clear window on the box) if the in store purchaser looks at it and decides they want to go ahead with the purchase then in the yes of the law, they cannot later come back and reject it. The law deems that they were happy with the price / what they got balance. However if the person was unable to open the box in store and got home only to find the livery application messed up on the side they couldn't see, or the wagons constantly derailed due to damage wheelsets then the law would support them in returning the item as the purchaser was unable to check these things before handing over their money.

 

* In practice of course any dealer with a brain would order the correct car or make you a generous offer to take the one that has arrived off their hands.

Edited June 26, 2017 by phil-b259

[NickC]

They are now showing as 'out of stock' on Hornby's website. So perhaps an investigation is in progress?

[RJennings]

Just checked mine ones (Ordered through Hornby themselves) and they are the older variant. Also noted the small image on the back of the outer sleeve does show the the more recent tooling with the hoods.

[Free At Last]

They are now showing as 'out of stock' on Hornby's website. So perhaps an investigation is in progress?

They have been shown as 'out of stock' for a few days, probably because they have all been sent out to the retailers.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Hattons show the Railroad version in their pages, has this changed?

 

Mike.

[DavidM]

Hattons show the Railroad version in their pages, has this changed?

 

Mike.

 

Pretty much the whole of this thread is discussion of that point 

[davetheroad]

Thank you Hornby. As the models released are now out of stock on the Hornby site I presume they will start appearing at the more realistic Railroad price, say £24 for 3. This makes it easier for me to buy 30 of them!.

[40F]

What a load of fuss about a mistake. It is a mistake for goodness sake not an evil plot to convert us all to become Railroad buyers. Lets put it all perspective

[40F]

You are missing the point.

 

While you might be extremely annoyed, in the example you give you are under no legal obligation to accept the Standard Focus because when it arrives - its not what you have pre-ordered. Its got nothing to do with the specifics of the product in front of you but simply address the fact that it is not what you ordered. The legislation is quite clear - if you enter a contract to purchase an item - be it a car or a set of model railway wagons and the end product does not meet the the agreed / advertised / promised specification when it physically turns up, you are entitled to reject it for a full refund. What you cannot do under the legislation is stamp your feet and demand that the retailer go and order the ST3 instead or indeed lower the price you pay for you to take the inferior model*.

 

The law recognises mistakes can happen - and offers two remedies, either the correct product is sourced OR the customer gets a full refund. There is no obligation to do one or the other, though naturally with lots of consumer goods manufacturers take the view that replacement with the correct product is better. However for things that are made on the basis of short production runs (like model railway products or some clothes brands) it is clearly impractical to replace the item with the correct one and a refund is the only feasible option.

 

Similarly as regards advertising, the law recognises that manufacturers / retailers can use ore-production / artists samples / etc to encourage customers to pre-order and that these. However once the item physically arrives then if it is found to not be as advertised, then revised advertising should be produced to reflect what is actually for sale.

 

Purchases made online come under a different set of rules to those in store where the purchaser has in theory the opportunity to check certain things. Thus the law does expect the potential purchaser to take certain steps - visually examining the product carefully before handing over the money for example. If the product is contained within packaging and that packaging needs to be opened then the purchaser should ask the retailer to open it for them so they may inspect the merchandise. If the retailer rejects such a request (which they are perfectly entitled to do) and the customer can only base their decision on what they can see on the box then the customer has grater rights to redress than if they were able to inspect it properly before purchase.

 

So with respect to this wagon pack (which I presume comes with a clear window on the box) if the in store purchaser looks at it and decides they want to go ahead with the purchase then in the yes of the law, they cannot later come back and reject it. The law deems that they were happy with the price / what they got balance. However if the person was unable to open the box in store and got home only to find the livery application messed up on the side they couldn't see, or the wagons constantly derailed due to damage wheelsets then the law would support them in returning the item as the purchaser was unable to check these things before handing over their money.

 

* In practice of course any dealer with a brain would order the correct car or make you a generous offer to take the one that has arrived off their hands.

 

 

At last a common sense and well reasoned response

[jjb1970]

I think this is both one of those things that needs a bit of perspective and also something that Hornby should make an effort to manage to minimise the negative effects on their image and reputation.

 

Clearly this is just a model, nobody needs it in the true sense of need and compared to some of the things happening in the world we are fortunate indeed to be vexed by an erroneous model release.

 

On the other hand, it is a mistake that shouldn't happen and Hornby cannot absolve themselves by transferring blame to their factory (should they try that) as it is their name on the box, it is their product and it's their responsibility to deliver the product as advertised to an acceptable standard. I get a bit mad when we see model suppliers happily accept the approbation for excellent releases and then try and transfer the opprobrium to their factories when things go wrong. Whatever the private situation, in public it's their name on the box and supply chain issues are their concern and problem to resolve.

 

That said, things go wrong, and what is important is how a company responds to this sort of thing. If a company reacts well they can emerge from it with their reputation intact and even enhanced. My advice to Hornby would be to take this on the chin, compensate retailers who ordered stock or customers who pre=ordered from Hornby and reduce it in price. That may cost them something now, but I think the goodwill generated and assurance that they'll look after their customers would be worth more in the long run.

 

So yes, keep this in perspective but it is disappointing and Hornby really should do something to put things right.

[No Decorum]

That said, things go wrong, and what is important is how a company responds to this sort of thing. If a company reacts well they can emerge from it with their reputation intact and even enhanced. My advice to Hornby would be to take this on the chin, compensate retailers who ordered stock or customers who pre=ordered from Hornby and reduce it in price. That may cost them something now, but I think the goodwill generated and assurance that they'll look after their customers would be worth more in the long run.

Absolutely right. Things go wrong. It is how they are dealt with which matters.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Hi guys,

 

Has anyone else ordered the above wagons? My pre-order arrived on Saturday and what a disappointment. The pre-order images clearly displayed the high quality versions with metal buffers, small couplings, hoods, and a half decent under frame.....the £48 price I feel reflected this.

Upon opening, I was extremely disappointed to find that the wagons are the old railroad range..they look terrible.

I've taken this up with the trader I purchased from and they agree that the models while not traded as railroad clearly are.

 

Does anyone else have the same disappointment?

 

 

Hattons show the Railroad version in their pages, has this changed?

 

Mike.

 

 

Pretty much the whole of this thread is discussion of that point 

 

 

But no clear demarcation between the Hattons and Hornby images?

 

Mike.

[slg]

It was a pity they arrived after the GCR show as they now have till October at the Great Electric Train Show to get their excuses right.

 

This what I said over on the engine shed topic 23/03/2017

 

Hornby would do a lot better in business if they got things correct and released what they advertised.

 

What they advertised

 

 

What they actually released.

 

 

That's 10 packs of theses I won't be buying now.

 

[tamperman36]

things like this happening make you wonder if the management at Hornby have there finger on the pulse at the moment or are they to busy fighting in the boardroom, maybe if the spend more time listening to the consumers and less time fighting over ownership then sales may improve.

[Ian Hargrave]

It is a shame that one blip has produced such bitterness and anger. Might it not be a good idea to pause for breath ,stop venting our spleen and consider all the things that Hornby do get right.Yes we are aware that they have experienced a period of difficulty but this example apart,they are still producing state of the art products at a remarkable rate with more in the pipeline.

 

Giving them a verbal basting with exhortations to improve their "act " is only giving relief to personal frustration and certainly won't help Hornby.Easy to give advice when we don't really have any idea of what is going on within Hornby.There are some very able people within this company who work hard with true professionalism as many of you who have met the team at shows up and down the country will agree.They certainly do not spend their time in supposed boardroom feuds.They need our support not brickbats.

[Classsix T]

Might I suggest that the vehement Hornby bashing Ian, might be because there are some who really want the Company to do well, and are frustrated at Hornby's inability to admit the factory/customer interface has resulted in a mess?

Hornby as front of house will naturally encounter any fall-out.

 

C6T

[Ian Hargrave]

Might I suggest that the vehement Hornby bashing Ian, might be because there are some who really want the Company to do well, and are frustrated at Hornby's inability to admit the factory/customer interface has resulted in a mess?

Hornby as front of house will naturally encounter any fall-out.

C6T

Indeed and maybe you are right ....but there remain more appropriate ways of expressing it.In any case,what right do we have to ask them to open channels of communication to commercially sensitive data.? None whatsoever.I think we are getting a little bit above ourselves here.I re emphasise ...this is a small problem which has escalated out of all proportion .Put another way....there are many more things in life to be "frustrated" about than this.At this moment I can name you a few...but we'll leave it at that for now.

[scottrains29]

HFA: Hornby Fails Again! Sorry couldn't resist.

 

It does seem like Hornby have made a simple error somewhere. Mistakes do happen. The important thing now is how they deal with this mistake:

 

Firstly, I think they should release a statement genuinely apologising about the error.

 

They should update their website to show a real picture of these railroad wagons, and also change the description to remove the part stating they come with NEM couplers.

 

They should reduce the list price to reflect the crude railroad detailing of these wagons, I would say no more than about £15 a set. Anyone who has already bought (including retailers) should be automatically given a partial refund or allowed a full refund if they return their wagons.

 

Hornby should also give anyone who has bought the wagons a free hood, since not only are they livered HFA wagons but the description also stated they come with hoods.

 

I want Hornby to do well and so by doing the measures stated above would help PR and also help with sales by selling the models at a realistic price.

[Steamport Southport]

Even though most of my modelling in the 1980s was BR Blue era, it shows how up to date with "modern image" modelling I am. I didn't even know that Hornby had made new MGR hoppers.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Hilux5972]

Even though most of my modelling in the 1980s was BR Blue era, it shows how up to date with "modern image" modelling I am. I didn't even know that Hornby had made new MGR hoppers.

 

 

 

 

Jason

Was only about 12 years ago so don't worry lol. I worked out that for the full RRP of the R6828 pack, I could buy 6 of the single Railroad models at full RRP.

[YesTor]

Look on the bright side chaps... at least they are the right colour...

 

I'll get my coat...