Jump to content

DJM Dave

OO gauge Crowdfunded APT-P (Warley announcement)

Recommended Posts

Ah ok. I apologize for that, I assumed - wrongly - you were a crowdfunder.

 

I agree if the order book closes just before production begins and we have just a 3-6 month wait (Accurascale style). Obviously if it closes a lot earlier (just before tooling starts as suggested here) then I doubt people will want to pay full whack (£1300+) up front, when the crowdfunders will have paid only 1 or 2 installments (£500 max) at that time.

No worries :)

 

If those are Dave's terms though then I guess anyone not currently on board will have to accept them if they want a new APT-P (or pay a LOT on eBay LOL )

 

Let's see what Colin's email brings, it may be just a glitch of the website that implies anything other than payment just before delivery, only Dave knows this for certain at the moment.

 

Personally I am merely an interested spectator, deciding at the outset that I'm sticking with my childhood Hornby version, although I am slowly adding coaches to the set

 

post-6717-0-03355700-1539764314_thumb.jpg

 

Which reminds me, I must get that interior done .......

Edited by RedgateModels
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

If anything I'd say you are the one sounding like a keyboard warrior. People are asking perfectly reasonable questions (which should of been sorted out long ago, especially the legal stuff!) and you're straight in there to shoot them down and stamp your feet at them just because they take a different view to you!

Bill, this is not aimed at you 

 

The reason I posted is that I am totally feed up with people trying to derail this project, once again people who have most likely not signed up are once again on about the T&C's

WHY.???

the legal stuff has been sorted out ages ago and there are endless posts about this.

When there was an issue with Paypal , no fault of DJ models people started raising all sorts of issues and at one stage this thread was actually locked in an attempt to call it to an end.

 

I for one have put my money were my mouth is and have accepted the risk. From reading the posts querying the financial status it appears those who are most vociferous have no intention of buying a model.

So why rake it up again.

If anyone has a problem with the process suggest they speak to Dave directly, that is the grown up thing to do.

 

I thought we had got past this and were going to talk about the model but once again we get the same old stuff which has been addressed on numerous occasions.

No wonder Dave has reverted to direct posts, dont blame him

 

There are new models coming to the hobby through people like DJ Models, Cavalex and Accurascale for example and if we want variety and models that people have wanted for years then we need to support these companies. It is a hard world out there and difficult to do business at the best of times.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You might be happy Gary with the risk and throwing £1000 in Dave's direction but someone else might not be.

They might contact Dave directly but they can also post on here seeing as Dave has used this site to his advantage to get his name about and engage with people when he sees fit. How would you of found out about this project otherwise?

The point is, its not up to you or I what others decide to do with their money or who asks questions or whether they drag up things if they are not sure about something. Ouroborus only pointed out that he thought the T&Cs contradict themselves (which they do) and you decided to label him a keyboard warrior etc..

Do you not think every time you go and label someone something for asking question that you yourself might be putting people off?

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem as I see it, without wanting to go over this well-trodden ground is that some people have misgivings about the project and thus haven't stumped up the cash.

 

Those without the misgivings have stumped up the cash. Now, the problem occurs that that group are saying "you've not paid, so shut up and stop being a keyboard warrior", but they have a vested interest. If people didn't have the misgivings then a number would have likely bought a model. This makes the misgivings extremely relevant, and doesn't make them keyboard warriors whatsoever. They'd be pretty daft to say "I've paid, FYI I think there are these problems...".

 

Obviously the people who have paid have accepted any potential risks in their mind, so you just end up with a pointless conflict which you're never going to resolve. Neither opinion is any more or less valid, and it's actually no more helpful that a handful who have 'invested' write off any one who hasn't as a "keyboard warrior" than the actual questioning of what's going on. The project isn't going to fail because people talk about it online. It may fail because people are put off from investing based on things they read, but I've not seen anything that's particularly unfair, so given the sums involved I see no issue with people raising these concerns.

Where it's a little dull is that the same stuff does come up time and again.

 

I see Dave hasn't used RMWeb for a couple of weeks, and with updates coming from email I wonder if he's got tired of facing into the same questions time and time again. Which is a shame, but understandable.

 

As I've said, I continue to watch with interest, I've not invested in the N gauge one for a few reasons, I remain tempted, but not sufficiently so at the moment! If that makes me a keyboard warrior then so be it!

Edited by njee20

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some questions might be the same but they have not been answered.

 

The one about people ordering now at £1300+, is it debited right away or will they be debited just prior to release?

 

It is a potential investor question, in everyone's interest, not negative at all, I'm sure we would all like more people on board.

The answer is one of four choices:

1/ you pay it all now (likely to put people off, cause grumblings)

2/ you pay it when the boat leaves China (or some other stage, likely to bring in extra buyers)

3/ the site should work like X, let me check with the website developer how that feature works, and if it don't I'll have it fixed (will have additional buyers wait for a further update)

4/ the order book is actually closed now, just need to update the site to prevent additional orders (puts the question permanently to bed)

 

Among-st all the hoo ha... I'm confident it could easily be overlooked and I'm sure Dave would have a clear reply if/when he sees it.

(edit though Colin has sent an e-mail).

Edited by JSpencer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've not invested in the N gauge one for a few reasons, I remain tempted, but not sufficiently so at the moment! 

 

Hi 

 

Same here 

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem as I see it, without wanting to go over this well-trodden ground is that some people have misgivings about the project and thus haven't stumped up the cash.

 

Those without the misgivings have stumped up the cash. Now, the problem occurs that that group are saying "you've not paid, so shut up and stop being a keyboard warrior", but they have a vested interest. If people didn't have the misgivings then a number would have likely bought a model. This makes the misgivings extremely relevant, and doesn't make them keyboard warriors whatsoever. They'd be pretty daft to say "I've paid, FYI I think there are these problems...".

 

Obviously the people who have paid have accepted any potential risks in their mind, so you just end up with a pointless conflict which you're never going to resolve. Neither opinion is any more or less valid, and it's actually no more helpful that a handful who have 'invested' write off any one who hasn't as a "keyboard warrior" than the actual questioning of what's going on. The project isn't going to fail because people talk about it online. It may fail because people are put off from investing based on things they read, but I've not seen anything that's particularly unfair, so given the sums involved I see no issue with people raising these concerns.

Where it's a little dull is that the same stuff does come up time and again.

 

I see Dave hasn't used RMWeb for a couple of weeks, and with updates coming from email I wonder if he's got tired of facing into the same questions time and time again. Which is a shame, but understandable.

 

As I've said, I continue to watch with interest, I've not invested in the N gauge one for a few reasons, I remain tempted, but not sufficiently so at the moment! If that makes me a keyboard warrior then so be it!

 

Thanks for the post. I have highlighted a few of your words because I think they are very important.

As model railway enthusiasts I think we all have a vested interest in any new manufacturer's products for the very simple reason that that manufacturer might choose to just produce your very own choice. Maybe not in your chosen livery, but at least the model is to be produced - maybe because you don't feel you have the skills to tackle your own scratchbuild or kitbash.

 

I freely admit I have no interest in the APT-P as it is totally outside my chosen era and area, but I regularly update myself on all model manufacturing plans for my personal interests. I don't want a 71, a 74, a Q6 or a King, but if Dave Jones announced an LNWR 5'6" radial tank and some Stanier PIII motor train coaches or a Bagnall DL2 (Bagnall version of a 204 hp Drewry) then I would become very interested in DJM production.

 

Crowdfunding is probably a model funding method which divides folk on this forum.  I admit to being one who likes to see the finished product before handing over my hard earned cash, and have only once not followed that principle - the KMRC Bulleid diesel. I was however fortunate though that I wanted the green version of 10203.  I saw the black and silver versions reviewed then ordered my 10203. I just wonder how many purchasers are willing to lay out their money in the expectation their model will appear at all, but will be accurate and run reliably.

 

So yes "njee20" we all have a vested interest in DJ Models, and I personally take my hat off to each and every crowdfunder of Dave's products - maybe in the hope that he will produce something personal to me.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, take your point, and didn't mean to imply anything to the contrary - the reason I follow this with such interest is, in part, because I want to see how it develops because of things it may lead on to - likewise I'm watching the King for the same reason. Ultimately we all have a vested interest in the success of each manufacturer as a participant in such a niche hobby.

I was more meaning that you have two clear conflicted camps (among others):

 

- have invested, give little stock to people who haven't

- haven't invested, voice concerns which are dismissed by the above

The vested interest in the former is stronger insofar as they really have 'skin in the game' and the specific failure of this project would directly impact them. The latter won't change the minds of the former, who have reconciled any risk in their minds, and the former won't change the minds of the latter because of the value placed in having contributed funds. Or something.

 

It would be good to get an answer to the questions more recently posed though, but as I say it seems Dave has perhaps absented himself from RMWeb, so an email may be called for!

 

Nick (because it's less of a mouthful than njee20) :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crowdfunding is probably a model funding method which divides folk on this forum.  I admit to being one who likes to see the finished product before handing over my hard earned cash, and have only once not followed that principle - the KMRC Bulleid diesel. I was however fortunate though that I wanted the green version of 10203.  I saw the black and silver versions reviewed then ordered my 10203. I just wonder how many purchasers are willing to lay out their money in the expectation their model will appear at all, but will be accurate and run reliably..  

 

I jumped on the first crowdfunding projects but will admit today I have become more the second group in preferring to see more details of the end product before I buy. I also don't like having lots of cash strapped up in pre-paid programs.

One product I crowdfunded has been a pain in the rear running wise ever since and was also available at clearance prices within 6 months of release. Another took 4 years, had a ski jump bow and the shop was in crisis over delivery. Those made me weary. But - in fairness - there were successes too.

 

In Kernow's diesel case, I order 10201 and 10203 in black. Paid for each fully when the demand was made. However at that point, painted EPs were already around and so were videos so there was little doubt over its quality. Kernow even honored the original 8 year old order price. I have ordered highly detailed wagons from another new player who take full payment at the moment of ordering, but again, the EPs are there, delivery is not far off. I have no problem paying in advance in those cases.

 

Sure you can return the item at the end according to the rules of consumer rights. But I'd rather not go through that entire process. My choice in these programs is based upon my experience and I certainly respect those who are crowdfunding this and other projects. The point is, there is a market out there to be tapped from those "wait and see" buyers like myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill, this is not aimed at you 

 

The reason I posted is that I am totally feed up with people trying to derail this project, once again people who have most likely not signed up are once again on about the T&C's

WHY.???

the legal stuff has been sorted out ages ago and there are endless posts about this.

When there was an issue with Paypal , no fault of DJ models people started raising all sorts of issues and at one stage this thread was actually locked in an attempt to call it to an end.

 

I for one have put my money were my mouth is and have accepted the risk. From reading the posts querying the financial status it appears those who are most vociferous have no intention of buying a model.

So why rake it up again.

If anyone has a problem with the process suggest they speak to Dave directly, that is the grown up thing to do.

 

I thought we had got past this and were going to talk about the model but once again we get the same old stuff which has been addressed on numerous occasions.

No wonder Dave has reverted to direct posts, dont blame him

 

There are new models coming to the hobby through people like DJ Models, Cavalex and Accurascale for example and if we want variety and models that people have wanted for years then we need to support these companies. It is a hard world out there and difficult to do business at the best of times.

 

I presume it was aimed at me.  Fair enough, I can take it, but as i stressed I'm supportive of the project.

 

But ask yourself this - a poster has queried what he's getting for his $1300 and when he's being expected to part with it.  The t&c which he quoted and I commented on are ambiguous and give a very real indication that that you part with your cash today and could receive nothing because you accepted the risk.  No model, no money back - that was the risk you took.   Now fair enough in the case of crowdfunders, they get a financial incentive of a cheaper model and staged payments, but those paying full price actually seem to be disincentivised to purchase it.  Clearly the "legal stuff" has not been "sorted out ages ago" because, as you point out, we're still here.  Its easily within Dave's capabilities to resolve this at the point of purchase, not in some comment on a forum that we have to wade through to find.

 

And that's the rub, because he will lose sales as things stand, risking the project and i don't want that.  Dave has been bold in setting up his own company, taking risks and a lot of flak that went with it.  I've supported him with my own pocket and have five of his locos, including one that was crowdfunded.  But until there is clarity with the APT in what i'm getting for my money, for me, this is too big a financial risk.

 

I hope this clarifies things for you - I'm not a "doom merchant" and I think i've been "grown up" about it and would appreciate if you respected that other people may have an opinion different to yours.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All Sorted

 

Dave has replied to my e mail and is getting his web guy to make the 'full price' APT's 'deposits' only, over 4 stages, like the crowdfunding ones.

 
This was the original intention and the web page ordering system will be changed to how it should have been to start with. 
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi DJM Dave

 

Lets hope Warley brings in some new orders in both N and OO, I take it you will have a DJ Models stand Dave... if so fingers crossed for more orders across the board hey.

 

Regards

Jamie

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dave doesn't seem to be talking on RMWeb any longer but he has been present at other shows this year and he did do Warley last year which would suggest he will be around this year - I hope so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dave doesn't seem to be talking on RMWeb any longer

How many times has that been said before on this thread.

It seems from his comments on here that he visits the forum occasionally to catch up.

Just because Dave does not comment on here every day, it does not mean he visits to catch up once in a while.

 

I'm sure he will be back to respond to any comments then return to making models.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He's not posted in over a month, but has visited multiple times in that period. Looks like he's decided the emailed newsletter methodology is how he wants to communicate with customers, which I think is a shame, but is his prerogative. He outlasted most manufacturers on here!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is little point in Dave posting updates on here. Firstly, he has his private club of project crowdfunders to share the news. Secondly, any update taking about delay or people not paying or tax returns etc would just bring in a repeat of the flak already seen earlier this year. There is no point in him wasting his time fighting those things. Clearly his time is better spent producing the goods. Action speaks louder than words.

 

Clearly, any update, would have to be a wow factor update. And any wow factor due soon would best be reserved for Warley right now. And it's a safe bet he is preparing for that show.

 

I will say, that the website for additional orders now allow you to pay in 4 parts (1/4 payment taken now) the increased price list models or just in one go (taken right away). Doubtless a big wow factor update would bring additional sales - but equally, you can't have a wow factor update, every week or even every month on a project that will last from 2 to 4 years.

Edited by JSpencer
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi All

 

It was thanks to DJ Models Dave and others on here to tell DJM Dave to re-send out reminders on re-Ordering for those that had not do so, which DJM Dave had sent me twice, but I have been so busy doing the everyday life subjects, that it wasn't till the second email from DJM Dave, that I can now say, I have re-Placed my two orders that I had a refunded back on, so, Yes I am back in the game... Get In lol 

 

It was difficult trying to work out, which sets were the best ones to buy or go for, to make the best use of the sets running numbers, and I bought two of the same sets to try and make some of the smaller sets I have also ordered to help make up a much larger APT-P Rake, with minimal re-numbering of the APT-P Driving Cars that I will have two sets of the same running numbers.  I think I got there in the end but so pleased I'm back in the game and as helped the number go up slightly to hopefully what DJM Dave had orders of originally.

 

Regards

Jamie

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This has gone all quiet, is it still happening?.

Did you not get his Email to all the crowd funders about 6/7 weeks ago?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you not get his Email to all the crowd funders about 6/7 weeks ago?

 

I'd hope for more frequent updates than that TBH, however it's Dave's project to manage how he sees fit :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.