Bachmann Class 25 retool announced 2018

[Andy Mac]

Hi Phil

 

Your concerns regarding the body being on back to front have been addressed. Mind you it didn't like going on the right way round, it was a bit of a fight. I have a feeling that it was made the wrong way round and when I threatened it with the choice of window it wanted throwing out because it wouldn't work. I put it back the way I took it off because that was the way it fitted the body.

 

 

 

 

10 to 1 Bachmann will be first past the post. 

12 to 1 SLW will win

 

Odds for a 1160 hp locomotive with a headcode box

7 to1  SLW

15 to 1 Bachmann

 

As for a 25/0

 

50 to 1 SLW

51 to 1 Bachmann

evens the flying pigs will be first.

 

Clive, can I get a £1k on SLW for a 25/0 first please..... lol, your returns are much better than bitcoin!

[26power]

No problem, thought it was useful.  A similar image of the original layout would be nice!

 

Looking at the picture again I'm struck by how transparent the radiator grill mesh is, from what might be considered a "typical viewing angle" for a model.  Perhaps we'll see manufacturers consider this?

 

Many thanks for sharing

 

That shows the revised exhaust arrangement off to a tee ...... the original was a round port in the narrower panel immediately to the left of the oblong port installed here....

 

Phil

[iwfb]

I too am surprised by how transparent the radiator grille looks.

 

Judging by how sharp the shadow is from the gantry the image was taken in bright sunlight, which must have washed out the wire grille.

 

It would be great to hear how anyone thinks a manufacturer could replicate this? 

[UMinion]

There won't be any of these issues when the SLW versions finally arrive, we can have confidence in all variants being correct.......................  .

Not sure why. Some of the current SLW class 24s have detail errors. Cab vents on the first blue one, no headboard clips on the first green one.

[PenrithBeacon]

I'd be amazed if they could and I think it has to be borne in mind that this effect is the result of unusual lighting and viewing position in the prototype, but not perhaps in railway modelling, particularly viewing position.

 

Some compromises just have to be accepted!

[Porcy Mane]

I'd be amazed if they could and I think it has to be borne in mind that this effect is the result of unusual lighting and viewing position in the prototype, 

 

Now you're absolutley sure the effect is down to unusual lighting conditions?

 

 

and there's more.

 

https://flic.kr/p/URsrHB

 

https://flic.kr/p/axueDj

 

https://flic.kr/p/bofUxA

 

https://flic.kr/p/axS1yN

 

https://flic.kr/p/a51m5m

 

http://www.railuk.info/gallery/notes/getimage.php?id=2570

 

 

Some compromises just have to be accepted!

 

Granted, but I suspect you haven't seen the foil like and virtually transparent etches Shawplan produce.

 

P

[PenrithBeacon]

Now you're absolutley sure the effect is down to unusual lighting conditions?

 

D5228-Grill.jpg

 

and there's more.

 

https://flic.kr/p/URsrHB

 

https://flic.kr/p/axueDj

 

https://flic.kr/p/bofUxA

 

https://flic.kr/p/axS1yN

 

https://flic.kr/p/a51m5m

 

http://www.railuk.info/gallery/notes/getimage.php?id=2570

 

 

 

Granted, but I suspect you haven't seen the foil like and virtually transparent etches Shawplan produce.

 

P

First thanks for publishing the photos and second I was wrong, there is more to this matter.

 

But there remains the problem of how fit that impression of depth into a model, the motor blocks of diesels tend to be pretty chunky things. All three manufacturers of the 24/25 series of engines have so far sidestepped this feature and for very good reasons.

 

No I haven't seen, or rather, I haven't examined, the Shawplan etches but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they aren't as you describe. For Bachmann however this possibility of introducing 'virtually transparent etches' raises an issue in itself. It is one thing for Shawplan to sell such etches to a skilled modelling community it is something else altogether to introduce something like this onto a production line whose workers are for the most part unskilled.

 

There is also the matter of the fragility of such etches in service on the layout. These models are not intended just to be stuffed and mounted in a display cabinet.

 

Perhaps people shouldn't shouldn't raise their expectations too high.

Edited February 5, 2018 by PenrithBeacon

[brushman47544]

First thanks for publishing the photos and second I was wrong, there is more to this matter.

 

But there remains the problem of how fit that impression of depth into a model, the motor blocks of diesels tend to be pretty chunky things. All three manufacturers of the 24/25 series of engines have so far sidestepped this feature and for very good reasons.

 

No I haven't seen, or rather, I haven't examined, the Shawplan etches but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they aren't as you describe. For Bachmann however this possibility of introducing 'virtually transparent etches' raises an issue in itself. It is one thing for Shawplan to sell such etches to a skilled modelling community it is something else altogether to introduce something like this onto a production line whose workers are for the most part unskilled.

 

There is also the matter of the fragility of such etches in service on the layout. These models are not intended just to be stuffed and mounted in a display cabinet.

 

Perhaps people shouldn't shouldn't raise their expectations too high.

 

Not quite the same, but Bachmann does supply its Class 37s and 40s with frost grills in the bits bag, because they were removed later in their careers. If they could be made a bit finer, perhaps something similar could work for the Class 25?

[Porcy Mane]

First thanks for publishing the photos and second I was wrong, there is more to this matter.

 

But there remains the problem of how fit that impression of depth into a model, the motor blocks of diesels tend to be pretty chunky things. All three manufacturers of the 24/25 series of engines have so far sidestepped this feature and for very good reasons.

Erm... not quite. As has been mentioned a considerable number of times on this forum;  SLW has provided cut outs in their chassis block into which fit removable plastic inserts with interior details moulded in. These give provision for different depth mouldings and could if needed, cover variations in different classes of locomotive. I'm pretty certain that SLW would not have gone to that trouble if they were not giving serious thought to providing a degree of transparency with their boiler grills.

 

 

Should Bachmann feel the need to trump SLW in this area, I look forward to the competition and more importantly their results. In the short term it is us, the PITA consumer that benefits from this type of rivalry. 

 

No I haven't seen, or rather, I haven't examined, the Shawplan etches but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they aren't as you describe.

 

It shows, so for your benefit here is a Shawplan 37 grill compared to a Bachmann (Sorry, I don't have a Class 25 Shawplan grill to show, indeed I don't know if they produce one.)

 

 

The most important comparison being with the prototype. What would you choose if fidelity with the prototype is your priority? Bachmann or Shawplan ?

 

 

It is one thing for Shawplan to sell such etches to a skilled modelling community it is something else altogether to introduce something like this onto a production line whose workers are for the most part unskilled.

 

 

Why not? SLW managed it with their Class 24.

 

I'm sure with manufacturing & assembly techniques being what they are today, the larger suppliers could manage something like this and make it durable whilst affordable without to much effort.

 

25292 at Guide Bridge by Arnie Furniss, on Flickr

 

 

There is also the matter of the fragility of such etches in service on the layout. These models are not intended just to be stuffed and mounted in a display cabinet.

 

But we are not talking toys any more. These high end models with their associated comparative high price point are aimed in the main at adults. They usually come with disclaimers telling us they are not toys accompanied with statements like, "they are fitted with delicate parts that can be easily damaged with rough handling". There is no difference between a finely etched boiler grill and  buffer beam air pipes when it comes to fragility.

 

Perhaps people shouldn't shouldn't raise their expectations too high.

 

True but it is manufactures marketing techniques that in most cases raise consumer expectations. Consumers then understandably expect more. If that wasn't the case we would all still be attaching A1 detailing kits to our Hornby 25's.

 

P

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Porcy Mane

[PenrithBeacon]

Thanks for that. Shawplan don't do etches for any Class 24/25. I did ask once and it was clearly felt to be the joke of the day.

 

I have a Vitrains 37 (in Executive livery)and a Hornby 50 (in NSE livery); as can be seen, I don't major on diesels, and they were bought for a club layout which has since been sold on. The thing that puts me off the etched grills is the pre-requisite of having a very high level of air brushing skills to repair the damage done by installing the items.

 

I am interested in the photo of the SLW model, but I find it bizarre that they should go to such trouble over future proofing their product and then make simple mistakes in the design of the grills, mistakes which haven't been corrected.

 

I'm looking forward to the forthcoming Bachmann 25, whether I shall be pleased enough to lay out the money is another matter. Or whether I'm still alive for that matter. Judging by the relative qualities of steam and diesel locos in all catalogues, producing accurate diesels is a much more difficult proposition than accurate steam locomotives but I don't understand why.

 

On other comment re expectations. Manufacturers marketing techniques certainly plays a part, but so does the frothing in places like this, the rise of 'DCC Ready' and DCC sound, and the realisation that there isn't a glass ceiling for the price of RTR models. I don't know about you, Porcy, but the greater the price the more I demand from a model and the more likely I am to say 'OK but no thanks' if it doesn't meet expectations. For prices approaching £200 I expect perfection and nothing less will do. Thirty odd years ago I was satisfied with the Hornby 25, OK it had serious weaknesses but it was close to being cheap as chips and it looked the part, so OK. I have a different attitude now.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Thanks for that. Shawplan don't do etches for any Class 24/25. I did ask once and it was clearly felt to be the joke of the day.

 

Wait until you see thge 26/27/33 grilles.

 

Mike.

[Covkid]

It's not worth getting into an argument about Roy as we are talking about the difference between a large company that juggles many balls, usually comes good in time (no matter how long that might be) who in recent years has been producing some excellent models (The Prototype Deltic) and a small company who to date has produced only one in several flavours albeit with scope for other variants who has not indicated anywhere that a 25 is being produced.  I know who I'd put my money on.  Only time will tell.

 

 

I am not and was not looking for an argument, simply demonstrating that the comment that SLWs 25 is not yet born but that Bachmann’s is in an incubator is incorrect.

 

As for your comment, if I was to use the word “excellent” to refer to one if the manufacturers, it wouldn’t be Bachmann that gets it. I don’t recall a single model from them that is available to purchase that has raised the bar anywhere near the SLW 24. Yes the EPs and specs are looking good, but time will tell whether the finished products lives up to expectation.

 

Roy

 

 

Sorry Roy I meant I wasn't wanting to start an argument over it not that you were. Only time will sort out the rest once SLW have actually produced the 24/1 and 25 variants(particularly the 25/3's) rather than the livery and small detail tweaks that have happened since it's launch.

 

​Clive, do you take accumulator bets? - there's money to be made in a triple though I doubt I'll get Ladbrokes interested.

 

 

All I was saying was simply that on 7th January 2018 Bachmann publicly announced to the media that they are to produce both main variants of the class 25. ie class 25/1, 25/2 and 25/3. Far from denigrating Phil Sutton's excellent work on the "skinhead" class 24, as far as I know (and feel free to direct me to it) SLW have not announced the production of any variants of the class 25.  I have no doubt that if Phil were to produce the class 25 it would be a great model, but it has not (yet) announced. Having seen and purchased some of Bachmann's latest models, which are a far cry from their original class 25 released seventeen years ago, I have no doubt the new class 25 will be to the same standard as the Ivatt diesel which is my Bachmann diesel benchmark.

 

Whilst you can be correct about the SLW class 24 chassis being suitable for the class 25, the pre existing Bachmann class 25 chassis is equally suitable and all Barwell actually need to do is produce new mouldings from the solebar upwards. I believe the recent class 25s actually had onboard lighting too.

 

So to recap, Phil Sutton hasn't announced a class 25 whereas Bachmann have.      

Edited February 5, 2018 by Covkid

[Dave47549]

.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[lyneux]

all Barwell actually need to do is produce new mouldings from the solebar upwards

 

And remove the fictitious sole bar.

[farren]

I woukd think if Bachmann are going to produce all new 25/1-3. Then it would be reasonable to think that Bachmann will come out fighting. And produce a model at least as good as SLW. To make sure they stomp their mark all over the 25s and take all the sales possible. If that's not the idea why bother upgrading what they already do. Though it would be interesting if they can match SLW on price.

[Nick G]

 

 

So to recap, Phil Sutton hasn't announced a class 25 whereas Bachmann have.      

 

 

And the Bachmann 25 has been released how many years ago? And still not correct.

 

When the SLW 25 gets announced (when its in stock ready to be bought) and not in 5 years time I am sure it will be a stunner. It will also not be a generic 25 it will be correct for the variant/number produced with the correct details. 

[robertcwp]

I woukd think if Bachmann are going to produce all new 25/1-3. Then it would be reasonable to think that Bachmann will come out fighting. And produce a model at least as good as SLW. To make sure they stomp their mark all over the 25s and take all the sales possible. If that's not the idea why bother upgrading what they already do. Though it would be interesting if they can match SLW on price.

Bachmann's 25 will be an all new model in a different league to their previous 25 and 24, with tooling to cater for different options. It won't be a generic model. Whether the tooling variations will match those on the SLW 24, I don't know and whether it will be as good anything SLW produces remains to be seen. Their 25/3 came out in 2001 I believe, and things have moved on a lot since then. 

[Porcy Mane]

Their 25/3 came out in 2001 I believe, and things have moved on a lot since then. 

 

I bet the Bachmann R&D boys have had one of the products from the SLW boys across their work tops to see what makes it Tick, Humm, Buzz or whatever.

 

Is it called "rival product evaluation?"

 

P

[hoover50008]

Lots of useful images here including the exhaust

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/sets/72157627022732378/page1

 

E

 

 

[adb968008]

Bachmann, Heljan and SLW all doing a super detail 25, the UK market is getting like the German HO market. All we need now is Hornby to reintroduce the railroad one.

[brushman47544]

Bachmann, Heljan and SLW all doing a super detail 25, the UK market is getting like the German HO market. All we need now is Hornby to reintroduce the railroad one.

 

Has SLW formally announced a Class 25? Its a logical step after the Class 24, but if they hadn't already started working on it, would they start after the Bachmann and Heljan announcements?

[tractor_37260]

Has SLW formally announced a Class 25? Its a logical step after the Class 24, but if they hadn't already started working on it, would they start after the Bachmann and Heljan announcements?

SLW don't make "pipedream" announcments, hence their 24 was available to purchase the very same day it was announced !! No years of speculation and waiting like some other manufacturers

Apart from that the SLW 24's chassis and circuit board were both designed from the inception to cater for future Class 25 models.

[mdvle]

SLW don't make "pipedream" announcments, hence their 24 was available to purchase the very same day it was announced !! No years of speculation and waiting like some other manufacturers

Apart from that the SLW 24's chassis and circuit board were both designed from the inception to cater for future Class 25 models.

 

I guess it all depends on how you define the years of speculation.

 

Yes, the SLW 24 was a surprise, an easy thing to do when you are new.  But it wouldn't surprise me if the speculation on the 25 didn't start within 24 hours of the announcement, and certainly the speculation on the 25 became "official" when it got its own thread 7 months later.

 

So if SLW do release a 25 we will have had at least 2 years, if not at least 3 years, of speculation.  Hardly any different then really.

[The Ghost of IKB]

18 months since announced, i wonder what progress has been made?

[delticfan]

On 09/06/2019 at 11:34, The Ghost of IKB said:

18 months since announced, i wonder what progress has been made?

Hey don’t be impatient lol Bachmann will need at least another 2 years to get the 3D prototype cab ready!