Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Ron Ron Ron]

Over the last couple of years, the occasional topic has been discussed here in Wheeltappers, regarding EV's, Hybrids, future Diesel  & Petrol bans etc.

 

With a wave of next generation EV's shortly to hitting the car market, I thought it might be useful to have a focal point for discussion on such related topics.

 

Whether we realise it or not, many of us will be buying, or contemplating buying one of these vehicles in future years.

Most members of the public will be aware that modern day EV's exist and are around, but may not notice or come into contact with them very often.

After all, despite the rapid growth in ownership, now getting into the tens of thousands, EV's still only make up a small proportion of the car market and total number of vehicles on our roads.

That is soon going to change.

 

Jaguar will soon be starting delivery of their i-Pace crossover SUV.

Volkswagen/Audi, Mercedes-Benz and BMW are all creating new, next generation ranges of EV's right across the size and price spectrum.

Most of these are new, dedicated EV models and not EV versions of existing models in their ranges.

At the more affordable end of the market, Nissan have recently launched their much improved Leaf 2, to very positive critical acclaim.

Other car manufacturers are also developing their own "affordable" models.

 

I'm sure there are many like me who have warmed to the idea of possibly owning an EV.....maybe one day!

Battery development, waiting for milage ranges to be extended, charging networks, the practically of charging etc, etc. ....OK maybe one day!

Could that day be coming sooner than many of us have realised?

 

It probably will take a good few years, but consider this.

They are shortly to start work on the construction of HS2 (preliminary works are springing up all over the phase one route).

By the time phase one is due to open in 2026, how many EV's and Hybrids will be on our roads?

 

 

Ron

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

The Electric Vehicle Experience Centre - Milton Keynes

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Audi E-Tron

 

https://electrek.co/2018/03/06/audi-e-tron-quattro-all-electric-prototype/

[Ron Ron Ron]

Previous discussion topics.....

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126593-dyson-to-make-electric-cars/?hl=%2Belectric+%2Bcar

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/124783-new-diesel-and-petrol-vehicles-to-be-banned-from-2040-in-uk/?hl=%2Belectric+%2Bcar&do=findComment&comment=2798293

 

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

[Ron Ron Ron]

[Ron Ron Ron]

[Dunsignalling]

Pure EV is out of the question for me as I'd have to trail the charging lead across the pavement.

 

My next car is therefore likely to be a hybrid, probably in about four years time if I keep my current car as long as the previous two.

 

John

[Ozexpatriate]

Tesla Model 3 is reported to have poor braking. This is disappointing, for what should have been the most exciting EV introduction.

 

Nissan is throwing in their latest lane assist ADAS with the Leaf 2.

I've been renting hybrids recently. Most of the time you don't even know it's a hybrid until you power them up - unless you carefully inspect all the badges.

I wasn't very impressed with a Ford Fusion - mostly I was irritated with not being able to sync my 'phone with it, without downloading contacts - rather than any specific performance characteristics.

 

I was surprised by a Buick LaCrosse hybrid. This is a large platform sedan - not large like the old days but large enough. Acceleration was pretty awful but once moving it was adequate. On the fourth day of driving it I had a 250 mile round trip and ended up wanting to refill it before getting back to my destination. I was surprised at the very small petrol tank for such a boat - only 8 gallons.  I don't remember the mileage - it was probably around 38 mpg, which might not seem like a lot, but this is still a pretty big sled. One of it's odd quirks was that it did not move while in "Drive". You had to press the accelerator to make it move.

 

Most of these cars have dashboard instrumentation that encourages you to demonstrate high mileage behaviour.

 

With the regnerative braking, you'd think the hybrids would slow down faster, but they have a lot of rolling inertia.

[Zomboid]

I'm at a stage now where I actively want an EV, now that there are some available which are actually desirable. Presently I don't have a drive, so it's not likely to happen whilst I live in my current house, but when it is new car time then I'll definitely be looking at a hybrid. I've never driven one before, so might hate it...

 

I think that the situation that I'm in will be a major impediment to EV take-up, actually. Houses built before the rise of the car, and a lot of recently built ones do not have dedicated parking spaces, so charging them up will be difficult for many.

[Mike Storey]

I will have to wait until a van based one comes along, or get a hybrid, so we can fit my wife's wheelchair in plus the four-legged fella, plus the shopping or luggage, plus the grandson etc etc.

 

And it has be able to do 700Km in one day, several times a year.

[Torper]

I think that the situation that I'm in will be a major impediment to EV take-up, actually. Houses built before the rise of the car, and a lot of recently built ones do not have dedicated parking spaces, so charging them up will be difficult for many.

 

I still cannot see how it will ever be possible for people living not only in drive-less terraces, but particularly in flats and tower blocks, to charge their electric vehicles.

 

I was also interested to see that on a recent outing where a number of people took their cars, a friend of hours with a Leaf took an hour and a half longer than everyone else to complete the return journey..........

 

DT

[Neil]

I still cannot see how it will ever be possible for people living not only in drive-less terraces, but particularly in flats and tower blocks, to charge their electric vehicles.

.......

 

With a bit of organisation, allocated parking spaces and a roadside charging point it should be possible. I've seen similar set ups in Amsterdam alongside the canals.

[jjb1970]

I suspect my next car will be electric. They are improving rapidly and have reached a stage where they are now genuinely desirable and selling on driver appeal and performance. The Tesla Model S is superb and to my mind was the game changer as it was the car that took battery electric cars from being something of a compromised novelty to being something people really want. However, you don't buy a Tesla for low cost transportation, it is actually pretty good value if you compare it with cars like the BMW M5, Audi S6 and E63AMG (which are the models in those ranges closest to Tesla, although even then I think Tesla outperforms them by quite a bit except for range) but if it is the cost of petrol you're worried about I'm not sure spending that much to buy a car makes sense.

At the moment, for me a PHEV makes more sense. A car with 30-40 miles range on battery would be more than adequate most days but I do drive longer distances reasonably regularly where at the moment a diesel or petrol car is much more convenient. A couple of the other parents in the boys ice hockey team drive Teslas ( a Model S and a Model X) and although they both love them they both admit it is a pain in the backside when the team plays some away games or if they need to go on a long trip. Interestingly, they both tell me that the claimed battery range is very optimistic, although that is no different from woefully optimistic official fuel consumption figures. The BMW 330e is genuinely fast and offers an excellent compromise between a decent battery range for most daily drives with a petrol engine when you need it but the boot is tiny (I need a big boot) and you can feel the extra weight (handling is nothing like as good as a regular 3 Series). The Passat GTE has much better packaging and a superb compromise between battery and petrol performance but I just didn't warm to it.

The wild card of course is another VHS - Betamax scenario as the Asian car manufacturers have been pumping serious money into hydrogen fuel cell vehicle development. Battery chemistry is also improving all the time and increasing energy density at the same time as reducing recharge time. At the moment I think the Tesla Model S is a bit more than I'd like to spend but when I replace my current car in 2 - 3 years I suspect there will be a good range of excellent EVs and PHEVs to consider.

Edited May 22, 2018 by jjb1970

[Zomboid]

I was also interested to see that on a recent outing where a number of people took their cars, a friend of hours with a Leaf took an hour and a half longer than everyone else to complete the return journey..........

 

DT

That's a compromise that some of us can make. I drive beyond the single charge range of a modern EV about 3 times a year, and those journeys would clearly take longer with a charging stop. For me I think I could happily live with that compromise, but not everyone would be willing or able to.

[jjb1970]

https://about.bnef.com/blog/e-buses-surge-even-faster-evs-conventional-vehicles-fade/

[Torper]

With a bit of organisation, allocated parking spaces and a roadside charging point it should be possible. I've seen similar set ups in Amsterdam alongside the canals.

 

So every home occupier in the country, including those living in terraced streets, flats and tower blocks will be provided with an allocated parking space and charging point, even those families with two or more cars?  Wishful thinking, I'm afraid.  Even if it is possible to do, which I doubt, I can't see that infrastructure ever being provided and that, even more than the limited battery range of electric vehicles and the requirement for extra electricity generation, is the main reason that I'm convinced that in the long term hydrogen cell technology is the way forward.

 

DT

[30801]

For on street charging there are a couple of ideas using lamp post & pop up chargers. The lamp post ones are trivial to install but you need the posts to be on the road side of the pavement.

The pop up ones look more expensive to install but the idea is to have lots of them so you can reach one wherever you park.

 

http://www.current-news.co.uk/news/lamp-post-electric-vehicle-charging-network-set-for-london-borough

 

https://www.treehugger.com/cars/uk-city-explores-retractable-pop-car-charging-stations.html

[Jonboy]

Do you need a charging post for every space or could a post have multiple sockets? E.g our flats have a line of six space, a post centered on spaces 2 and 5,with outlets on left, middle and right could work to minimise installation costs.

 

Mind you we are apparently going to see initial tests of driverless pods a mile down the road so why bother....

[Dunsignalling]

With a bit of organisation, allocated parking spaces and a roadside charging point it should be possible. I've seen similar set ups in Amsterdam alongside the canals.

And when all that is in place, in sufficient quantities that don't make getting plugged in a battle, I'll be considering an EV, but that will ultimately be down to public spending decisions.

 

Local councils are having to cut back on far more important stuff, right now, so the cash will have to come from central government, presumably via motoring taxes. As ever, it's a safe bet that those of us out in the sticks will be paying for it long before we see much local benefit, though. 

 

Logically, such spending will initially go to areas where air quality is worst, London and other large conurbations, with semi-rural areas like mine, a couple of decades down the list. By then I'll be in my mid-eighties, assuming I'm still around and still driving. Thus, even if I do get an EV, it will probably be my last car.  

 

John

Edited May 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[30801]

Do you need a charging post for every space or could a post have multiple sockets? E.g our flats have a line of six space, a post centered on spaces 2 and 5,with outlets on left, middle and right could work to minimise installation costs.

 

 

That's pretty much the normal configuration for two-socket chargers. The trick is to sort out charging for charging. Normal chargers need to have the smarts for connecting to the supplier and billing you. The ones I linked to above are really just dumb sockets. The supplier gives you a charging brick that handles the billing so they can have an over-supply of cheap charging points for you to choose from.

[30801]

Something you might find interesting.

Zap Map's live charge point map.

 

https://www.zap-map.com/live/

[Dunsignalling]

For on street charging there are a couple of ideas using lamp post & pop up chargers. The lamp post ones are trivial to install but you need the posts to be on the road side of the pavement.

The pop up ones look more expensive to install but the idea is to have lots of them so you can reach one wherever you park.

 

http://www.current-news.co.uk/news/lamp-post-electric-vehicle-charging-network-set-for-london-borough

 

https://www.treehugger.com/cars/uk-city-explores-retractable-pop-car-charging-stations.html

Just looked out of the window. Half my neighbours have already left for work and between the lamp post outside my place and the next one, there are still seven cars parked.

 

The investment required, especially given that many round here have more than one vehicle, would be colossal. Count the lampposts and multiply by ten.

 

Also, I somehow suspect that, if most of us did move to EV's, the millions of tons of batteries that would need to be produced, then recycled every five or six years when they are knackered may turn out to represent an ecological timebomb on a par with fossil fuel propulsion. 

 

EV's are today's answer for those whose lifestyle can be fitted round them, hybrids for the rest of us, with hydrogen fuel cells in the offing as the long term solution.

 

John

Edited May 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[30801]

Also, I somehow suspect that, if most of us did move to EV's, the millions of tons of batteries that would need to be produced, then recycled every five or six years when they are knackered may turn out to represent an ecological timebomb on a par with fossil fuel propulsion. 

 

The batteries aren't knackered after five or six years. When they do degrade such that the limited range becomes an issue they still have a significant value and get reused as static storage (this is assuming you don't just get the bad cells replaced).

 

Now given that EV batteries are something like 2% of all lithium batteries what about all those billions of tiny batteries that are not worth the effort of cracking out of those old phones or whatever?

[Dunsignalling]

The batteries aren't knackered after five or six years. When they do degrade such that the limited range becomes an issue they still have a significant value and get reused as static storage (this is assuming you don't just get the bad cells replaced).

 

Now given that EV batteries are something like 2% of all lithium batteries what about all those billions of tiny batteries that are not worth the effort of cracking out of those old phones or whatever?

OK not knackered, but certainly past their best without further expenditure.

 

But that 2% represents a tiny fraction of 1% of all the cars on the road - what happens if EV's become the dominant form of motoring?

 

Just as a matter of interest, what would be the is the cost of maintaining the batteries over the eight years or so that I usually keep a car?

 

Presumably, if you move cars on every two or three years, it's reflected in the price you get and the fall off in performance just becomes someone else's problem

 

John

Edited May 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling