Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Enterprisingwestern]

Instead of wasting all the multiple billions into forcing EV's down everyones throat,  the money could have been spent on making IC engines more acceptable in the short term whilst, undoubtably, a better solution comes along, the pocket sized atomic fuel cell perhaps? Even in the short term there are arguably better options than EV's with all the environmental and practicality issues associated with them, it just needs governments and industries to talk to each other, like that's ever going to happen.

Also, peoples perception of the kind of car they require needs to change, the vast majority of journeys could be carried out in a Smartfortwo or Renault Twizy or equivalent.

The major problem with transportation is the lack of local and worldwide joined up thinking.

 

Mike.

[Jol Wilkinson]

It's rather ironic that the new models being produced by Jaguar, Mercedes and the other premium brand manufacturers are large, "off road" style vehicles or other high end types, rather than urban  "commuter" cars for use in high traffic density areas or the type of car owned and used by many with smaller wallets. Is that because EV's are becoming the next trendy "must have" set of wheels for the "look at me" section of society? A repeat of the demand for the Toyota hybrid Prius among the great and good when it was introduced?

 

The Nissan Leaf bucks that trend, relying on Nissan's appeal to that part of the older section of society who have bought into the reliability image of Japanese and other Asian brands. 

 

The issue of urban street charging points will be a significant problem. Parking space is at a premium in many locations where there is pre-motor car housing and street planning, so expecting local or central government to get to grips with it - other than another source of revenue - is very optimistic. Mikes last sentence in his post above sums it up very well.

[spikey]

As one who gave up the motor car six years ago, I do wonder whether by the time the electric car is a practicality for most folk, the roads will be too crowded for them to get anywhere in it.

[Tony Davis]

We bought an Outlander Phev last December, for a number of reasons; SWMBO likes the look of them, we had 2 vehicles and, since retirement, very rarely go to different places at the same time so only really need one, the tax on my diesel Freelander 2 was going up, there is a lot of uncertainty over the cost of ownership of diesel vehicles and the tax on the phev is zero.

 

So far I am pleased that we got it, it is a pleasure to drive, very quiet, we got a grant to have the chargepoint installed. We are fortunate in that we have off-road parking so the lead-across-the-pavement-factor isn't an issue for us. We are on economy seven and we recharge over night. We get about 30 miles EV, which, for us, is enough for most of our daily usage.

 

SWMBO's uncle, who lives in California, gets a discount from his electrical supply company because he has an hybrid car.

[Fat Controller]

A slight aside to Tesla drivers; if intending to travel outside the UK, please check that the software isn't set up to immobilise the car when you leave these shores. I know of two instances recently where a Tesla has arrived in France on the Shuttle, and has refused to start. Not only that, but somehow the vehicle cannot be pushed out of the way either. I can't remember how the first was removed from the train; the second was brought back to the UK, where Tesla modified the settings remotely, allowing the car to be restarted.

[30801]

Just as a matter of interest, what would be the is the cost of maintaining the batteries over the eight years or so that I usually keep a car?

 

Very probably nothing. Eight years is the typical battery warranty length these days.

Now think what you'd spend on oil changes, cam belts, clutches, brakes and whatever else you need to spend money on in an ICE car over that time.

Brakes on an EV should last you over 100k miles.

[letterspider]

If you are going to get a Hybrid car - move very fast. Only cars registered before March 2017 are still available for £0 road tax, then onwards all cars are going to be around £130.

 

Just bought a Hybrid for this reason. Having worked out it will save me £1500 a year on better fuel efficiency and road tax - it was an easy choice to make. Also modern cars have a range of built in gizmos like park assist and sat nav etc

 

I do a lot of work in London which requires short hop journeys - currently getting minimum 55mpg and have got 80mpg on motorways from my Toyota Hybrid CH-R; one of the reasons I opted for it is that it is chain drive.

 

I do still miss my old car (which had really comfy leather seats) but the government and the environment hated it.

Edited May 22, 2018 by letterspider

[Reorte]

Electric cars are starting to look pretty appealing and I may consider one for my next car, not that I intend to change cars for many more years (by which time electric cars will probably look even more appealing). I do think it's a mistake to try to push for 100% electric though and the noises in that direction aren't achieving more than resentment and inconvenience. Enough will end up electric anyway without that for the remaining petrols and diesels to not be a problem. If most buses and taxis and a significant proportion of vans go electric that'll probably be most of the way to dealing with a lot of local air condition issues on its own.

[30801]

If most buses and taxis and a significant proportion of vans go electric that'll probably be most of the way to dealing with a lot of local air condition issues on its own.

 

Taxis are a no-brainer. C&C taxis in St Austel bought a Leaf to try out a few years ago. Now they have no IC vehicles in their fleet.

China is buying electric busses at a huge rate to sort out their city air quality problems.

[Fenman]

I had thought the car I bought a couple of years back might be the last pure IC engined car I ever buy. 

 

In truth, I am hugely tempted by this (which is on sale from Q4 this year)

 

(Apologies - it turns out I don't know how to embed Youtube videos. Click the link).

 

There is definiately a bit of Mr Toad inside me. Though I am wondering how easy it is to get in or out with my back ...

 

Paul

Edited May 22, 2018 by Fenman

[Dunsignalling]

Very probably nothing. Eight years is the typical battery warranty length these days.

Now think what you'd spend on oil changes, cam belts, clutches, brakes and whatever else you need to spend money on in an ICE car over that time.

Brakes on an EV should last you over 100k miles.

Presumably, the manufacturers want/expect the whole car to be recycled at the point where battery replacement might be required, then.

 

The issue for me is that I've never bought new and don't intend to start doing so. My cars vary from two-and-a-half to four years old when I get them and when I get a good one, I keep it a long time. I'm only on my third car since 1994, so I seem to be a good judge of used ones...…...  

 

I don't do big mileage so cam belts get done at eight years (the book says nine but I err on the side of caution). 

 

EV will remain notional for me until a charging point appears in front of my house anyway. 

 

John

Edited May 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Ron Ron Ron]

It's rather ironic that the new models being produced by Jaguar, Mercedes and the other premium brand manufacturers are large, "off road" style vehicles or other high end types, rather than urban  "commuter" cars for use in high traffic density areas or the type of car owned and used by many with smaller wallets.

Is that because EV's are becoming the next trendy "must have" set of wheels for the "look at me" section of society?

A repeat of the demand for the Toyota hybrid Prius among the great and good when it was introduced?

 

Tesla have shown to gain a foothold in the market and to influence trends, it's no use trying to enter at the foot of the market where competition is high and the initial returns on very high investment levels  needs to be much higher.

 

If a small family hatchback EV is going to need to be priced at premium levels, then it makes more sense to package the technology into premium priced models instead.

Having said that, Renault (Zoe) and Nissan (Leaf 1 and now 2) have taken a different route to market.

 

There is also the aspirational aspect of the premium brands product offerings.

If all the first generation of mass produced EV's were small vehicles in the lower priced segments, not to mention some of the early examples looking like daft Noddy cars, then it would be a very steep uphill struggle to convince people to get out of their E-Classes and Range Rovers and into premium priced EV's.

 

So yes, Tesla has become an aspirational purchase for the well healed and initially there has been a heavy dose of trendiness surrounding the new brand, but they've also created a credible and competent range of cars, that stand up on their own merits.

Their game plan is to use that reputation to now deliver cars with wider mass market appeal.

The Model 3 is the first of these, but most of us will be aware of the monumental difficulties the company are experiencing trying to establish themselves as mass market manufacturers.

 

 

The Nissan Leaf bucks that trend, relying on Nissan's appeal to that part of the older section of society who have bought into the reliability image of Japanese and other Asian brands.

 

In the UK at least, the original Leaf (mk1) appears to be driven by mostly older members of society.

The semi-Noddy car looks didn't help there.

However, the new Leaf (mk2) is a much better offering, not only in looks, but technically and in its capabilities.

 

Nissan do have a job to do with "image " though.

The new Micra is a complete change of image and packaging from the awful Noddy car looks of previous generations, but unlike in certain mainland European countries, I imagine it'll be a hard work trying to sell it to a younger generation in the UK.

 

I have a feeling the new Leaf (mk2) is going to be a tremendous success.

 

 

The issue of urban street charging points will be a significant problem.

Parking space is at a premium in many locations where there is pre-motor car housing and street planning, so expecting local or central government to get to grips with it - other than another source of revenue - is very optimistic.

Others have echoed this point.

It's a real issue for very large numbers of car owners, but let's not forget that on the other hand, there are literally millions of households that do have off street parking, private drives and garages, where they can charge their EV's and Plug-in Hybrids.

 

Other points to consider.

 

I can't remember the figures without looking it up, but they say something like 80% of all car journeys are less than 25 or 30 miles.

Many people who would have difficulty having access to charging points at or near home, may be able to charge their cars at a place of work, or at a public charging point.

 

There are also Range Extender versions of some EV's.

 

Also, what of the development of autonomous vehicles and the evolving concept of shared vehicles, Uber type models of transportation etc.?

Electric and Hydrogen fuel-cell powered cars may lend themselves very well to these possible future trends.

 

 

.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[30801]

I have a feeling the new Leaf (mk2) is going to be a tremendous success.

 

The 40kWh version has a pretty big limitation...

Nissan still haven't fitted the Leaf with battery cooling. With the denser battery in the new Leaf it gets hot and throttles rapid charging after the second or third charge. If you're doing really long journeys it's actually quicker in an old 24kWh car which will charge faster.

 

The 60kWh Leaf next year will have cooling.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I know a chap who has always driven larger engined, sporty cars.

He previously had an XK8 and now has an F-Type as a weekend car.

 

They were looking at the idea of buying a BMW i3 for his wife.

It was just out of curiosity and they had already been looking at several conventional ICE powered cars.

Having test driven the i3, just out of curiosity and then getting a loan car for a weekend, they took the plunge and ordered one.

But, instead of it being his wife's car, he uses it himself as his main weekly transport.

 

He takes the i3 to work (his own business premises) and charges it on a Monday after the weekend and again on Thursday or Friday, before the next weekend.

Just twice a week, as it's only used for getting to and from work and as a general run around.

He does little or no charging at home, even though they've got plenty of space there.

He doesn't directly pay for the electricity either, as it comes out of the company (Free fuel) and they chose the Range Extender version of the car, with its tiny petrol powered generator, for emergency use.

 

Putting the car through the company helps too. 

Leasing the vehicle means he has no concerns whatsoever about the life of the battery or residual costs.

The lease payments take care of that.

 

Take a look at the growing size of the personal leasing market and the well established business leasing market.

Add in tax incentives and the likelihood of increasing financial penalties for driving pure ICE powered cars and I can easily see where its all going.

 

 

.

[Reorte]

I think it's telling that more and more electric (and hybrid) cars aren't trying to look like something flashy and different, announcing their presence. They're starting to look like any other car, a sure sign of getting firmly in to the mainstream.

[Ron Ron Ron]

More premium sector EV's on the way.

 

Jaguars next XJ.

 

Jaguar J-Pace  ...will be available in hybrid and/or EV versions too, borrowings tech from the all-EV new i-Pace.

 

BMW i4

 

BMW i5

 

Audi E-tron

 

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I think it's telling that more and more electric (and hybrid) cars aren't trying to look like something flashy and different, announcing their presence. They're starting to look like any other car, a sure sign of getting firmly in to the mainstream.

 

 

Indeed.

Those early mass produced Hybrids from Toyota and Honda looked a bit wacky. 

Honda's efforts particularly.

It was rather disappointing that BMW chose avant-garde styling for their i3, but their forthcoming projects are more in tune with their general future brand styling ideas.

 

I do wonder why Toyota continue with the Prius, when the same Petrol Hybrid power train package is available in nearly all of their conventional car models, from the Yaris, all the up to to their premium Lexus models.

Maybe because the Prius branding and styling has an appeal of its own, to certain people at least?

 

 

.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[jjb1970]

I think there are probably three probable reasons people will consider an EV or PHEV (excepting the obvious reason that they may just want an EV or fancy a particular model.

 

1. Environmental sensibility, the desire to reduce environmental impact. Notwithstanding the genuine questions around the environmental impact of extracting materials and battery production and recycling I do think that there is a compelling case for EVs and PHEVs. For the eco-concious I think cars like the e-up!, Leaf and Zoe are great.

2. Avoid fuel costs, whether an EV makes sense on that point is questionable. You can buy a petrol up! For just over £9k, the e-up! Is just over £25k. A Nissan Pulsar can be bought for just over £13k, a Leaf starts at just over £25k (I just took these prices off the Nissan and VW websites so it doesn’t consider discounts, second hand etc), which means unless you do astronomical mileage then the EV is unlikely to stack up economically yet. And if you do that many miles an EV isn’t the best option, a PHEV makes a lot more sense. So at the moment I think the financial case is questionable, the best application for EVs at the moment is urban cars but that application tends to be associated with low mileage use. Being exempt from C Charges will soon add up if you live in a city with such charges.

3. The exceptional performance possible with an EV, the power/torque characteristics of an EV unlock excellent performance. Tesla have exploited this and their cars are admired not just for being emissions free but for the exceptional performance. This is the market being exploited by other high end models in the pipeline, and I do think there is a compelling case if the range is compatible with your driving pattern.

 

I do think there is an issue with battery materials availability, and it is an area for which I’d like to see more studies. Battery designers are developing new chemistries and some of these promise to reduce the use of the less desirable and/or harder to find materials whilst also improving energy density and re-charge time. When I’ve looked at this issue I haven’t really been impressed with the quality of available reports and it is a significant question given the anticipated growth in demand. And that growth isn’t just EVs and electronic devices, battery storage is taking off (I know the plan is to recycle old car batteries for this market) and shipping is looking at batteries. Now for shipping and battery storage for power grids I think liquid flow batteries may be the way ahead but either way battery demand could grow very quickly. I have seen a proposal for a newcastlemax bulker which currently would need a 15,000T battery but the proposal is based on reducing this to 7,000T at which point the project is considered viable. Or in other words a single bulk carrier will need a battery over 20,000 times bigger than a typical EV battery, you don’t need many electric ships and battery demand of EVs may start to look modest. And at the moment those batteries would still be competing for certain materials used for batteries in other applications.

 

Hydrogen EVs are the wild card as in some ways they address some of the outstanding issues around EVs but their viability depends both on an ample supply of green hydrogen (well, if it is to make any eco sense) and also a hydrogen supply infrastructure. Technically fuel cells are as pretty much as old as batteries and are certainly not a new or innovative technology.

[MarkC]

The information already posted is all well and good.

 

However...

 

How is the electricity to charge all these vehicles going to be produced? We're pretty much 'on the blood' as far as present generating capacity vs demand goes during winter, particularly when there's a big high pressure system over the UK and wind generation is minimal. Coal fired power stations are almost gone, hydro is limited and nukes upset the tree-huggers... (And don't get me started on how 'green' the biomass-fuelled power stations are, seeing as much biomass is shipped across the Atlantic by oil-powered ships, even though that is, as I have mentioned many times, a very fuel-efficient means of transport). Solar? Again, it has limitations.

 

Wave power has to be properly considered and developed, and quickly, if we are not going to be suffering regular power outages. It's probably the most reliable of the 'green' options too, seeing as, as the saying goes, "Time and tide wait for no man". Tides are predictable, and the power in them is massive.

[Enterprisingwestern]

The information already posted is all well and good.

 

However...

 

How is the electricity to charge all these vehicles going to be produced? We're pretty much 'on the blood' as far as present generating capacity vs demand goes during winter, particularly when there's a big high pressure system over the UK and wind generation is minimal. Coal fired power stations are almost gone, hydro is limited and nukes upset the tree-huggers... (And don't get me started on how 'green' the biomass-fuelled power stations are, seeing as much biomass is shipped across the Atlantic by oil-powered ships, even though that is, as I have mentioned many times, a very fuel-efficient means of transport). Solar? Again, it has limitations.

 

Wave power has to be properly considered and developed, and quickly, if we are not going to be suffering regular power outages. It's probably the most reliable of the 'green' options too, seeing as, as the saying goes, "Time and tide wait for no man". Tides are predictable, and the power in them is massive.

 

An excellent point, the generators panic when everybody puts the kettle on half way through Corrie.

 

Mike.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Away from the more expensive cars.

 

Ford

 

Citreon DS

 

Volkswagen

 

Mercedes-Benz

 

 

...and here now.

 

Hyundai Kona EV

 

.

[30801]

How is the electricity to charge all these vehicles going to be produced? We're pretty much 'on the blood' as far as present generating capacity vs demand goes during winter, 

 

There's a huge amount of off-peak capacity. I forget the figures but there's enough for a large expansion of EVs already.

Still waiting for Green Energy to come and fit a smart meter so I can charge overnight at 5p/kWh. Annual fuel bill of ~£300 would be nice.

 

The other thing is vehicle to grid. I already have a huge battery. When I arrive home at peak time I could plug the car in and run the house off it. OVO are doing a trial which I have signed up for. We'll see if I get picked....

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The information already posted is all well and good.

 

...How is the electricity to charge all these vehicles going to be produced?

 More plant! Whether electric or fuel cell or a mix of both. Huge economic shift from refinery/storage/physical distribution of liquid hydrocarbon = some far seeing types are going to get very rich indeed.

 

 

I still cannot see how it will ever be possible for people living not only in drive-less terraces, but particularly in flats and tower blocks, to charge their electric vehicles...

 This is part of the why of the 'urban planners wet dream' that instead of owning, people will hire the things at need.

 

The commandeering of the public highway for personal parking space is a typical tragedy of the commons, and this may be the means of rolling that back. (Cannot come too soon for me. I'd be after the Tokyo option, prove you have off-road parking space available to accomodate it before acquiring the vehicle.)

[Dunsignalling]

Indeed.

Those early mass produced Hybrids from Toyota and Honda looked a bit wacky. 

Honda's efforts particularly.

It was rather disappointing that BMW chose avant-garde styling for their i3, but their forthcoming projects are more in tune with their general future brand styling ideas.

 

I do wonder why Toyota continue with the Prius, when the same Petrol Hybrid power train package is available in nearly all of their conventional car models, from the Yaris, all the up to to their premium Lexus models.

Maybe because the Prius branding and styling has an appeal of its own, to certain people at least?

 

 

.

Referred to by some in the motor trade as the Pious. It's not just railway workers that get driven to cynicism.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Ron Ron Ron]

....How is the electricity to charge all these vehicles going to be produced?

We're pretty much 'on the blood' as far as present generating capacity vs demand goes during winter, particularly when there's a big high pressure system over the UK and wind generation is minimal.

Coal fired power stations are almost gone, hydro is limited and nukes upset the tree-huggers... (And don't get me started on how 'green' the biomass-fuelled power stations are, seeing as much biomass is shipped across the Atlantic by oil-powered ships, even though that is, as I have mentioned many times, a very fuel-efficient means of transport).

Solar? Again, it has limitations.

 

Wave power has to be properly considered and developed, and quickly, if we are not going to be suffering regular power outages. It's probably the most reliable of the 'green' options too, seeing as, as the saying goes, "Time and tide wait for no man". Tides are predictable, and the power in them is massive.

 

The $64 million question?

 

Don't mix up wave with tidal generation though.

I'm quite baffled as to why there has been so much wasted research effort on trying to develop wave generation though.

At the same time so little effort put into tidal generation programmes.

 

The tides are a 100% guaranteed, 24/7, 365 potential source of electricity generation.

Unless some intergalactic space Gypsies, run off with the moon one night.

 

 

.