Hornby - New tooling - 59' Bulleid 'Short' coaches

[Dunsignalling]

34 minutes ago, Calidore said:

Thanks @Dunsignalling for the interesting posts, on both counts. I'll have to have a scout around and see if I can find any more photos.

 

Also very interesting that in this period there seem to be photos of everything from T9s, N15s/S15s to standard 4MTs and 5MTs or light pacifics on these workings. Perhaps there's some more information to be found in a book somewhere.

 

Adam

Page 8 of David Gould's volume on Bulleid stock goes into more detail (too much for me to summarise) on the uses these sets were put to. Up to 1961, they appear to have been used out-of-season on local services (presumably allowing older stock to be "rested"), whilst being pressed into main line express/relief work in summer. 

 

However, and interestingly, he mentions that efforts to restrict them to local services had become "policy" as early as 1949. CWNs would be needed, though, to establish exactly which sets worked where, and when.

 

Basingstoke only really became "suburban" as a result of the Bournemouth electrification in 1967, when its steam shed finally closed, so 3-coach off-peak stoppers were possibly the norm c1960.

 

John

 

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[RFS]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Basingstoke only really became "suburban" as a result of the Bournemouth electrification in 1967, when its steam shed finally closed, so 3-coach off-peak stoppers were possibly the norm c1960.

 

Basingstoke was part of the London Overspill plan along with places such as Ashford anbd Swindon, which meant they were rapidly developed in the late 1960s. In the post-war years Basingstoke was a small provincial town with a population of around 25,000 whereas today it's close to 125,000 and with electric services to London very much a commuter town. No doubt off-peak and Sunday services were easily served by 3-coach trains.

[talisman56]

I have the excellently-illustrated 'Southern Steam Operations 1966-1967' (Christmas present from No.2 son) and cast an eye down the side of some of the express trains illustrated show several examples of multi-door coaches included in the formations, even at that late date for non-Standard stock...

[Phatbob]

I had a very welcome e-mail from my local model shop (Grimy Times Model Railways of Warrington) today to say that my pre-order of the new release 3-set has arrived. 
So if any fellow RMwebbers are waiting for these to be released, the time is nigh.

[phil-b259]

On 17/01/2021 at 17:10, Dunsignalling said:

 

However, being effectively a compartment short in each BSK compared to their longer brethren, conscious efforts would have been made to exclude them from diagrams covering the commuter peaks. 

 

 

They were also a compartment shorter than the previous Maunsel (6 compartment) design too!

 

The Maunsel design (which the underframes were built for before WW2 got in the way) had 6 passenger compartments with the guards designated area being part of the luggage van area. When Bulleid tweaked the design post WW2 he altered it such that the passenger compartment closest the luggage area now become a dedicated space for the guard. Its not clear why this was necessary as introducing something that has less passenger capacity than what it replaced does not usually make for good business sense and given Maunsel had not seen fit to make any such change in the previous decade its definitely a curious decision.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by phil-b259

[Gilwell Park]

This raises a problem which occurred to me some time ago. Seat reservation. How did the people who allocated seats know if the brake was Maunsell, or Bullied with one compartment less?  Then how did the seat labels get to the carriage sidings for somebody to go down the train fitting them under those little fixings above each seat?

Edited February 24, 2021 by Gilwell Park
spelling

[Bulleidboy100]

Just had an email from Hornby to say the coaches are in stock - R4886B, R4888D and R4888E.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Bulleidboy100

[Phatbob]

On 23/02/2021 at 18:34, phil-b259 said:

 

They were also a compartment shorter than the previous Maunsel (6 compartment) design too!

 

The Maunsel design (which the underframes were built for before WW2 got in the way) had 6 passenger compartments with the guards designated area being part of the luggage van area. When Bulleid tweaked the design post WW2 he altered it such that the passenger compartment closest the luggage area now become a dedicated space for the guard. Its not clear why this was necessary as introducing something that has less passenger capacity than what it replaced does not usually make for good business sense and given Maunsel had not seen fit to make any such change in the previous decade its definitely a curious decision.

 

 

There were, I think, two types of Maunsell BSK (or BTK if you prefer).  Four compartmant and six compartment.  Maybe Oli decided to just split the difference and build all his with five compartmants?

 

[Dunsignalling]

20 hours ago, Gilwell Park said:

This raises a problem which occurred to me some time ago. Seat reservation. How did the people who allocated seats know if the brake was Maunsell, or Bullied with one compartment less?  Then how did the seat labels get to the carriage sidings for somebody to go down the train fitting them under those little fixings above each seat?

The obvious way would be to treat all brake vehicles, for seat reservation purposes, as only having four compartments as per some Maunsell and all BR Mk1 BSKs.

 

Any spares are then just available for those without reservations.

 

John

[Downer]

Just in case Hornby have forgotten, these also came in crimson and cream.

[Dunsignalling]

19 minutes ago, Downer said:

Just in case Hornby have forgotten, these also came in crimson and cream.

As did Maunsell low-window 3-sets, which they have also ignored thus far.

 

John

[bude_branch]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, (I did re-read the topic from the beginning and couldn't find anything, but then I couldn't find my socks this morning, so who knows).

 

Is it correct that Hornby produce the following?

 

R4888D Coach No S2849S / R4886 Coach No S5713S / R4888E Coach No S2850S,

which were formed into 3-Set No 967.

 

Many thanks.

[Nick C]

39 minutes ago, bude_branch said:

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, (I did re-read the topic from the beginning and couldn't find anything, but then I couldn't find my socks this morning, so who knows).

 

Is it correct that Hornby produce the following?

 

R4888D Coach No S2849S / R4886 Coach No S5713S / R4888E Coach No S2850S,

which were formed into 3-Set No 967.

 

Many thanks.

Looks like the composite is R4886B, but yes, those coach numbers are correct for set 967.

[bude_branch]

5 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Looks like the composite is R4886B, but yes, those coach numbers are correct for set 967.

Yes, you're quite right I should have listed it as R4886B.  Thanks for the speedy reply, I feel a trip to my local model shop might now be required.

[spamcan61]

On 25/02/2021 at 11:32, Downer said:

Just in case Hornby have forgotten, these also came in crimson and cream.

Trouble is there are still seemingly large quantities of green brakes available at less than 50% of list price  from a number of supppliers, so I think it'll be a while before we see crimson and cream coaches.

[Farang]

These carriages were sets of three - and that's how Hornby should have sold them. That would simplify production and orders from retailers.  In later years they did get split up as you can see in photos of trains. I would have bought a set but didn't like the windows as they looked thick when viewed at an angle. Has anyone already commented on that? And as much as I'd like to have the Bachmann Bulleids at £75 each I'll give them a miss.

[Dunsignalling]

On 10/08/2022 at 17:35, spamcan61 said:

Trouble is there are still seemingly large quantities of green brakes available at less than 50% of list price  from a number of supppliers, so I think it'll be a while before we see crimson and cream coaches.

As these only ran in 3-sets until sets began to be broken up from 1965, the brakes will be unsaleable to other than the Rule One mob, without the CK to go in the middle.

 

Presumably the lack of those is caused by the same people buying them in multiple to run unprototypically extended sets....

 

When coaches only ran in short sets, it would be much preferable if they came as a pack.

 

John

[Wickham Green too]

On 19/08/2022 at 20:15, Dunsignalling said:

... When coaches only ran in short sets, it would be much preferable if they came as a pack. 

IF - and only IF they could be done with some sort of extended finance option for those who couldn't afford the whole set in one lump ( and wouldn't want to risk them disappearing completely while they saved their pennies ).

[brushman47544]

12 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

IF - and only IF they could be done with some sort of extended finance option for those who couldn't afford the whole set in one lump ( and wouldn't want to risk them disappearing completely while they saved their pennies ).

I sympathise, but if all three coaches of a set are released at the same time, you still have to find the money for them all at the same time or risk individual coaches selling out. If you know when they are supposed to arrive, the best option is to save up and then hope nothing else you want arrives in the meantime!

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, brushman47544 said:

I sympathise, but if all three coaches of a set are released at the same time, you still have to find the money for them all at the same time or risk individual coaches selling out. If you know when they are supposed to arrive, the best option is to save up and then hope nothing else you want arrives in the meantime!

And, even factoring in the latest price increases, a 3-set will still cost significantly less than a medium or large loco from the same maker.

 

John

[RFS]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

IF - and only IF they could be done with some sort of extended finance option for those who couldn't afford the whole set in one lump ( and wouldn't want to risk them disappearing completely while they saved their pennies ).

 

Seems the problem with the Hornby Bulleids is that they were announced suddenly, and were available very quickly. No such issue with the Bachmann Bulleids - I pre-ordered a number of these in December 2020 and I'm still not sure I'll get them by the end of this year. 

[Wickham Green too]

The other point to remember about three-car sets is the complexity of packaging when you have so many variables : the 60' Birdcage sets produced by Bachmann ALWAYS ran as three-car sets* ( though one sets was augmented to eight cars for a while ) so producing packaging for a three-car set would have been a doddle .... the 59' Bulleids ALWAYS ran as three-car sets in malachite green or red and cream livery - but were split up when in B.R. green so you'd need two packaging variants. When it comes to Maunsell stock, the vast majority - but not all - of the Composites and Brake Thirds were allocated to sets ( not necessarily of three cars ) whereas the other types had a greater proportion of 'loose' examples ........ so the only option would be ( and was ) packing and sale as individual coaches.

 

* ignoring a few pull push or departmental conversions  

[H2O]

9 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

The other point to remember about three-car sets is the complexity of packaging when you have so many variables : the 60' Birdcage sets produced by Bachmann ALWAYS ran as three-car sets* ( though one sets was augmented to eight cars for a while ) so producing packaging for a three-car set would have been a doddle .... the 59' Bulleids ALWAYS ran as three-car sets in malachite green or red and cream livery - but were split up when in B.R. green so you'd need two packaging variants. When it comes to Maunsell stock, the vast majority - but not all - of the Composites and Brake Thirds were allocated to sets ( not necessarily of three cars ) whereas the other types had a greater proportion of 'loose' examples ........ so the only option would be ( and was ) packing and sale as individual coaches.

 

* ignoring a few pull push or departmental conversions  

Bachmann put groups of boxed items in a fairly environmentally friendly cardboard tube 'wrapper' to make sets, you can see individual bar codes on the end to check what items have been grouped.  Little complexity of packaging required.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, H2O said:

Bachmann put groups of boxed items in a fairly environmentally friendly cardboard tube 'wrapper' to make sets, you can see individual bar codes on the end to check what items have been grouped.  Little complexity of packaging required.

And when Hornby did do a 3-pack (the "Somerset & Dorset" Maunsells) they just made a bigger box to hold the three standard-size boxes. Pretty much what Bachmann did, plus flaps on the ends.

 

In any event, 59' Bulleids are probably a bad standpoint from which to argue in favour of supplying "set coaches" individually.

 

Most had already been withdrawn when sets began to be abolished in 1965. More than two-thirds had gone en masse at the end of 1963, reflecting the SR/WR boundary changes earlier that year and newer coaches becoming available for the Somerset & Dorset line. Some of the remaining sets were subsequently expanded beyond three coaches using 63' stock. An example being Set 976, which received four SKs in June 1964. Set 980 also grew considerably, a year later, after sets had supposedly been abolished!

 

A handful remained in traffic beyond the end of SR steam, and CK No.S2722 just saw 1968 in, though possibly only on paper. The last of the rest went in October 1967, along with most remnants of Bulleid loco-hauled stock of all types on the SR. 

 

I'm unsure what (or how much) use the late survivors saw, but Oxted line services would be my educated guess, and some may have featured in the "Kenny Belle" for a time.

 

John

Edited August 21, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[JSpencer]

On 20/08/2022 at 21:38, Wickham Green too said:

IF - and only IF they could be done with some sort of extended finance option for those who couldn't afford the whole set in one lump ( and wouldn't want to risk them disappearing completely while they saved their pennies ).

 

In the case of Hornby, there is plenty of alert time to save up for a set and - as said elsewhere - it is not more expensive than a mediam or large loco.  In the case of Bachmann Birdcages, they would only get a few weeks warning and the cost of the set being more than a large loco (or equal at best). 

The problem, if they release 1 coach of a set per year to allow for those short on pennies to save up, 3 years is a long time to collect the entire set...

If they box them up as one, (both Hornby and Bachmann have done this in the past), I have noticed that they can often be cheaper than buying 3 individual coaches.

Coachs opperating in sets sold as individual coaches, tend to leave shops with lots of brakes as those who don't really know that they run in sets will probably just buy 1 coach to add to an existing rake.

 

I think the real problem today is that the choice out there is far greater than any time before, combined with the highest prices in say 40 years, causing people to pick and choose... and hope nothing more important comes along!