Those of us modelling overseas - are we just as biased as 'UK ONLY' types?

[298]

13 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

I would like to think that that I am open minded and open to everything with regards modelling, but I fear that I am becoming just as insular as that guy in Bristol all those years ago - just the other way around!

 

 

 

Obviously not, as something has piqued your interest enough not just to want to model a particular prototype, but from my own memory of your layouts you've done so in a way to make them memorable in a way that I just don't get from most British prototypes. Or are you trying to say that you'll only be building Chinese layouts from now on, now you've found your zenith? (which means I can't ask Team Yakima again if he is building a Yakima layout....)

 

Having thought about this on the way home from a show today, I reminded myself of the theory that most people have probably brought a copy of Railway Modeller before Continental Modeller, and as such bring existing skills into a new project, and will be exposed to other overseas prototypes more readily than someone who only models their home nation- in fact the latter (after thinking about questions asked whilst operating today) may be chained down by certain legacies after decades of interest in the same big four prototype/region, and be in less of a position to adopt finer wheel standards, better control systems, and couplings that actually work over someone building a stand alone project that requires just 2-3 locos, a couple of coaches, and a handful of goods wagons. There is a similar battle in the US at the moment in convincing the natives that a useable home layout can be on a 1' wide shelf and not an 8'x4' or basement full of multiple sheets thereof.

 

I'm starting to think that I might be becoming insular, as despite having a list of future projects I'd like to tackle given enough time, money, and space (Class 87s in Bulgaria, Soller Railway, Milwaukee Road electrified mountain division, Japanese Interurban, something Norweigan but I'm not sure what), I know that it's unlikely I'll be able to see any of these at a show as they still aren't popular enough or branded too difficult over the usual fodder.

Edited April 6, 2019 by 298

[298]

2 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

There is a phrase that popped up on the US section - JAAL - just another American layout - referring to the typical inglenook switching layouts that seem to predominate the UK exhibitions  I guess this is the non-Brit equivalent of the GWR BLT..........

 

 

So this probably isn't the right time for someone to be launching a new US inglenook then..... 

 

#Walks away, whistling with hands in pockets....

[Jeff Smith]

Time to get a bit controversial, although living in the US and seeing them in the flesh I cannot see the interest that US railroads generate in the UK.  First of all it is all freight as long distance passenger trains are almost extinct here.  And secondly it is mostly boxcars, tankers or open scrap cars.  Thirdly it is all RTR except for a few boxcar kits.....   A brief excursion into US On30 was interesting but ultimately didn't really hold my interest.

[PaulRhB]

2 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Time to get a bit controversial, although living in the US and seeing them in the flesh I cannot see the interest that US railroads generate in the UK.  First of all it is all freight as long distance passenger trains are almost extinct here.  And secondly it is mostly boxcars, tankers or open scrap cars.  Thirdly it is all RTR except for a few boxcar kits.....   A brief excursion into US On30 was interesting but ultimately didn't really hold my interest.

But often it’s the fact it is different to what you’re used to that makes it interesting  HO US may be well supplied with RTR but there’s still loads of detailing, repainting and weathering to personalise them. The other thing is many of us like the operation side so we buy our stock off the shelf, just like the real railroads, and then operate a miniature railway with it. 

For me it’s the impressive size of the US stuff, colourful liveries and sound it makes that grabbed my interest. I don’t worry about what it is particularly I just see a scene I’d like to recreate and then make it operate like the real thing. 

But then again I like to wind up the old tinplate and watch it rattle round. It doesn’t pay to over analyse what’s fun just enjoy it  

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, 298 said:

 

So this probably isn't the right time for someone to be launching a new US inglenook then..... 

 

#Walks away, whistling with hands in pockets....

 

I may be in a similar situation.

 

It's just that I can't whistle too well...............

[Talltim]

I don’t know what the modelling scene in China is like. It may be that they look at your layout and say, ‘just another big mainline layout’ ;-)

A lot depends on your perspective and whether you enjoy the familiar or unfamiliar.

I was talking to someone about layouts we like and realised we are polar opposites. He liked layouts that he felt he could build, I like layouts I feel I couldn’t build.

[The Johnster]

I am fairly committed to British practice steam era modelling for my own enjoyment, but not blind to the skill of other disciplines or the visual attraction of them.  The OP operates a Chinese steam/diesel exhibition layout which I consider in the top ten most visually interesting layouts on the circuit, featuring the only example of DCC steam sound that I find even remotely convincing.  I don't have to be among the cognesiti of Sino-Ferroequinology to enjoy it!

[Zomboid]

2 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Time to get a bit controversial, although living in the US and seeing them in the flesh I cannot see the interest that US railroads generate in the UK.  First of all it is all freight as long distance passenger trains are almost extinct here.  And secondly it is mostly boxcars, tankers or open scrap cars.  Thirdly it is all RTR except for a few boxcar kits.....   A brief excursion into US On30 was interesting but ultimately didn't really hold my interest.

The current US scene still features short trains and switching a few cars at an industry. Shortlines provide immense opportunity for having fun shuffling cars using 70 year old diesels (or 100 year old electrics). For me, there's much more operational potential in the current American rail scene than any other that has a reasonable amount of RTR support.

 

And then there's the rich history to dive into. Modelling main lines requires a fair amount of space, but branches and shortlines allow for mixed trains, a single combine car being pulled by a 2-8-2... There's a load of scope for doing different things to what the UK scene usually shows, and all using as standard couplers that actually work and allow trains to be propelled...

 

But that's just what I like about it. It's not for everyone, and that's great. An exhibition full of American shortlines would be pretty samey  just like a procession of GWR/BR(W) BLTs would be.

[south_tyne]

43 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

An exhibition full of American shortlines would be pretty samey  just like a procession of GWR/BR(W) BLTs would be.

 

That's the important point. A regular exhibition needs to have a variety of layouts with a good spread of prototype, scale, gauge, era, nationality, size (larger layouts to micros), type (end to end/roundy roundy) etc, the list of possibilities goes on. This helps to show to wide spread and diversity of the hobby both for experienced and new modellers and opens out eyes to things which are not on our usual 'radar'. You never know seeing something novel or different might spark an interest of desire to go down a different route! In addition to this, there is then opportunity for specialist shows that are more specific and focused - say a scale specific exhibition, timescale shows or those based around one specific prototype country. 

 

I have always been an advocate of quality over quantity and would rather have a handful of items instead of masses of stuff. Hppefully one day when I am in a better position, both financially and in terms of space, I would like to have two or three small projects on the go, to represent my varied tastes! Until then, I'll stick to my primary interest - 0 gauge, industrial. I really admire those who can plough a line furrow, focusing on one large, long-term project, often over many years, without being distracted by other prototypes! It's just not me though..... I'm a scatter-brain who is too easily distracted.

 

Upshot is, this is a broad church of a hobby, with opportunity and room for many different approaches and methods. It is what makes railway modelling such a wonderful pastime! Variety is the spice of life.

[Craigw]

I just like to see good modelling, I honestly do not care what the prototype is. Anything that is just bog standard RTR running around I will walk past. But, if I see something that has good scenery and stock then I stop to look. I model mid 1920s GWR to P4 standards despite being a 7th generation Aussie. I like the closer to scale track standards and it is a very hard path to go down in 3.5mm scale. Fortunately, my tastes are reasonably diverse so I enjoy  modelling the GWR as much as the NSWGR. 

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[jjb1970]

20 hours ago, caradoc said:

For me one of the reasons for attending, and enjoying, model railway exhibitions is precisely to see layouts outside, as well as within, my normal areas of interest, whether in terms of gauge, location or period. Two of the layouts I most liked at recent Model Rail Scotland shows were American and Dutch, and I have seen the amazing Burntisland a couple of times too; Not things I would ever consider modelling but well worth spending time on.

 

This. When I visit exhibitions(admittedly not very often) I want to see something different. If I want to see just what I like then I can stay at home. Seeing different things can stimulate new interests (a few times I have seen subjects I knew nothing about being modelled and made the effort to find out more about them) and inspire. 

[The Johnster]

I like to see how people have approached and solved problems (or sometimes failed to) at exhibitions , and some of these are common to all model railway practice wherever based and whatever scale or standard of realism.  There is also an increasing social aspect to them as I run into old chums and catch up, and, although it is something that has to be largely done online deze daze, one can still buy bits and pieces at exhibitions that one cannot get elsewhere.  I certainly don't go just to see more South Wales 1950s layouts just like mine, much as I enjoy them; different things can be learned from even in my dotage...

[Reorte]

I've got my range of interests which unfortunately doesn't include non-British layouts so I'm more likely to just pass others by. This is a major shortcoming because I sometimes end up at the non-British ones at exhibitions anyway (often they're quieter at a busy exhibition) and end up spending some time watching what turns out to be an interesting model, with not a clue what'll show up, and an interesting chat with the operator. I think I'll always prefer looking at models of UK prototypes, but that certainly doesn't mean that others should be ignored. And as others have said a good model is a good model - even with the country I'm interested in I've not a lot of time for the current scene but I've happily spent quite a bit of time looking at some very good models of it.

[Stoker]

Here in Canada almost everything is Canadian themed. Walk into any model shop and it's wall to wall CN and CP, a little VIA rail, some Ontario Northland, some BC Rail, some SOO. If it hasn't been on Canadian rails they aren't interested. So I guess it's true anywhere. Having said that, exhibiting is a much more British thing... a "train show" here is more of a glorified swapmeet.

As someone who has seen both British and American first hand, I'm inclined to agree with Jeff Smith that North American railways can be pretty uninteresting. The caveat to that is it really depends on where you live.  My local area is a fairly dull place, but there are some interesting pockets and I'm sure railfans who live in those places get great enjoyment out of it. Sometimes I take a drive down to the CN rail yard here in London, ON just to see what they're up to, and occasionally will catch them doing some flat switching. London is a pretty busy thoroughfare between Detroit, Hogtown and Buffalo, so it gets a fair bit of traffic. I've also done the drive up to Ontario Southland Railway's shops in Salford (which is actually in the middle of bloody nowhere). Took a photo which I've attached below... not sure it was really worth the hour and a half, and however much gas the F250 drank on the way there and back, but at least I can say I've done it?

I've still yet to catch their F units in action, which are sort of the holy grail of railfanning. I know they work the Ingersoll job, just not when... the wife absolutely loves F units so I'd like to go out to see them one day. Maybe I'll find time this summer. I have a friend who is a former CPR conductor, and he is buddies with the owners of OSR, so might be able to hook up with something, perhaps a tour of the shop and if I'm very lucky maybe even a ride along.

If you're curious and you want to see what US railroading is really all about, I cannot recommend strongly enough the Delay In Block Productions YouTube channel. Very good stuff.

[Chris M]

Love my US based garden railway and love my British N gauge. Also love Swiss railways but don’t model them. The operation around L’Hospitalet de L’Infant in Spain used to be quite fascinating. The railways of The Indian mountains are special etc etc. There are lots of interesting railways all over the world and it broadens your mind to find out about them.  It’s also fascinating to find details about how British railways developed and were worked.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Chris M

[newbryford]

14 hours ago, Stoker said:

If you're curious and you want to see what US railroading is really all about, I cannot recommend strongly enough the Delay In Block Productions YouTube channel. Very good stuff.

 

 

Another vote for the DiB videos

https://www.youtube.com/user/DelayInBlock

 

Cheers,

Mick

[brianusa]

Although reared on UK trains and railways, when I moved to the US there was virtually nothing so American trains it had to be.  After many go's with N, HO, even LGB trains and in the meantime getting older, settled on O tinplate which was ubiquitous still both new and used.

       Latterly, I found Hornby tinplate again, but I had all this US stuff!  As the Hornby stock grew, there had to be some arrangement, the simplest being running the two together.  May not be to everyone's taste but its not everyone's layout!

[The Johnster]

One of the reasons, not the only one, mind, that I model UK railways is that I know little enough about them, but it is a lot more than I know about ‘forrin’ ones.  I understand how to lay out, signal, and operate British capital B railways small r. 

 

I’d be out of my depth with most British based overseas railways (Indian, Australian, etc), struggling with the European scene, and getting even the most basic things wrong with North American practice.  To be honest I’d probably floundering a bit with some current Brit operating methods...

 

My choice of location and period is more personal and to do with a desire to recreate a world now long gone and inadequately preserved that I remember the last days of; again, familiarity plays a significant role, as I know the area very well. 

 

I once planned an 00 gauge garden layout not unlike brianusa’s, which was to be a way of using my older Rovex/Triang stuff.  This was predicated on the scenario of an island in the Southern Atlantic not unlike the Falklands but with coal reserves, which used second hand stock from all over the world, but mountainous terrain had forced train set curves and wheel profiles, not to mention short coaches.  

 

The island’s 4’ gauge railway was, during the 30s, much influenced by LMS practice, and some of the carriage stock (Triang short coaches) reflects this, as does the 63xx class light pacific (black princess).   Running would have been diabolical, but outdoor fun was name of the game. 

 

Never got got past a vague sketch that couldn’t even be called a planning stage, but several friends had similar stock and would have joined in the game!

 

[Allegheny1600]

 

 

 

23 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I’d be out of my depth with most British based overseas railways (Indian, Australian, etc), struggling with the European scene, and getting even the most basic things wrong with North American practice.  To be honest I’d probably floundering a bit with some current Brit operating methods...

Fair point, mate but part of the fun is learning how things are done in funny furrin places!*

In all honesty, back in the late eighties, I got into the familiarity breeds contempt with the BR blue railway even though it had started to liven up with large logo, railfreight etc - I simply got bored of it.

The models that represented the real thing in those days were truly dreadful yet across the channel or the pond were some fantastic running models that still hold their own today so I started looking seriously at railways abroad and have never stopped since.

Although I understand that UK outline models are now as good or possibly better than US or EU models from those days, current models are absolutely phenomenal and still far ahead of the UK.

However, I do take a look at British outline models at shows and online and there is some really excellent modelling there, conversely few US or EU layouts in this country, reach or surpass the good UK outline layouts that I have seen. That's in 3.5/4mm scale - in N scale, I have seen British layouts where the running and appearance knock the socks off European stuff at least!

 

So, I can say that I at least look at most layouts in a show if not chat with the operator/s and would never ever shun a layout just because it wasn't to my taste of prototype (unless it is one that takes itself too seriously!).

Cheers,

John.

 

*Often, it doesn't really matter that much if you get things wrong as almost no-one else would know anyway!

[The Johnster]

Me neither; see my earlier comment about TEAMYAKIMA’s exhibition layout.  This is as good as it gets from my viewpoint, utterly convincing and very ‘watchable’.  Nothing about it is any way like familiar practice. 

[HSB]

I tend to like things which are a little bit different from the norm whatever the prototype but I like anything if it's done well. I've modelled US N Gauge, New Zealand Sn3 1/2, British H0  and H09 in the past and am currently involved with building both British and German 0 Gauge layouts so my prototype interests are pretty wide. What tends to turn me off layouts is not their prototype but if the standards they are built to are a bit crude (especially the track!) and they show lack of imagination which I'm afraid applies to many 00 and N layouts I see at exhibitions!

Edited April 29, 2019 by HSB

[Jol Wilkinson]

From some years of attending exhibitions as an exhibitor, demonstrator, trader and occasionally a paying visitor, I have concluded that the majority of those attending are drawn to the layouts and models they can relate to.

 

I have seen well modelled, operated and presented 2mm, EM and P4 layouts featuring kit and scratchbuilt stock with few viewers, while nearby a  less well modelled 00 layout but with a vast array of the catalogue contents of the major manufacturers has attracted a large audience. While there are those who appreciate good modelling in any scale, etc. it is outwith the understanding of a  lot of people who would prefer to look at what they can understand.

 

Although I do appreciate a well researched, built and presented model, I am drawn to big four and especially pre-group 4mm layouts as they are likely to feature kit or scratch built models, which is what I enjoy making. Large 00 layouts with lots of flashing lights or noise emitting diesels don't draw my interest. Nor do USA logging layouts, although I have seen some exceptionally well modelled ones, scrapyard dioramas, loco sheds and a variety of other genre.

 

We all have our different interests and priorities, so it is inevitable that we will be attracted to some layouts and not others. We should however recognise that the builder(s) of any exhibition layout deserve to be treated with some respect, even if we don't appreciate or like what they have created and so say nothing. Sadly, there are those who like to show off their self importance by disparaging the work of others. 

[Jeff Smith]

26 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

From some years of attending exhibitions as an exhibitor, demonstrator, trader and occasionally a paying visitor, I have concluded that the majority of those attending are drawn to the layouts and models they can relate to.

 

I have seen well modelled, operated and presented 2mm, EM and P4 layouts featuring kit and scratchbuilt stock with few viewers, while nearby a  less well modelled 00 layout but with a vast array of the catalogue contents of the major manufacturers has attracted a large audience. While there are those who appreciate good modelling in any scale, etc. it is outwith the understanding of a  lot of people who would prefer to look at what they can understand.

 

Although I do appreciate a well researched, built and presented model, I am drawn to big four and especially pre-group 4mm layouts as they are likely to feature kit or scratch built models, which is what I enjoy making. Large 00 layouts with lots of flashing lights or noise emitting diesels don't draw my interest. Nor do USA logging layouts, although I have seen some exceptionally well modelled ones, scrapyard dioramas, loco sheds and a variety of other genre.

 

We all have our different interests and priorities, so it is inevitable that we will be attracted to some layouts and not others. We should however recognise that the builder(s) of any exhibition layout deserve to be treated with some respect, even if we don't appreciate or like what they have created and so say nothing. Sadly, there are those who like to show off their self importance by disparaging the work of others. 

 

I agree 100% with your comments and I suppose am guilty of one of two points.  There is naturally a tendency to like what you think you can match, or at least be inspired enough to try.  For many, for a variety of very valid reasons, this is RTR/RTP.  For others this is scratch building.

[The Johnster]

There are some practices that will dissuade me from wasting my time watching a layout at a show, and foremost among these are overbright flashing lights.  I already know the standard of modelling I will see (OOB RTR stock, continuous running, oversharp curvature visible at the ends, period mismatching and incorrect operation such as vac braked locos pulling air braked stock, signals that don't make sense, brick wall stops from 90mph and scalded cat starts, locos pulling trains with the loco tail lights lit, twin tail lights on pre 1980s dmus.  There's always a fire or road accident so we can have more flashing lights, roadworks so we can have even more, and usually a funeral and a fairground), and, while I refuse to condemn it and accept that people who model like this get a lot of fun out of it as do those who watch it at shows, it is not to my personal taste and I am not interested in it.  Sound is less of problem for me, though I can see how irritating it is for the operators of the layout next door.  

 

I also tend to sigh and raise my eyebrows at 'TMD/MPD' layouts, though I have seen them done superbly well and operated properly.  All too often, though, they seem to be trainspotters' wet dreams, 'look how many locos I've got, in all the collectable liveries'.  

 

There is nothing wrong in my view with exhibiting a layout entirely with RTR OOB stock and RTP buildings, so long as the operation is prototypical and takes place at some semblance of realistic speeds, with smooth starting and stopping.  And as long as you take it easy with the lights!  I will spend time watching such a layout and enjoy it.  I prefer it if the RTR is at least weathered, though, and if a timetable is worked.  In fact, I would rather see this than some fine scale scratchbuilt masterpieces, often but not exclusively 7mm, which seem to specialise in snail's pace running (presumably to allow the driver to examine each handcrafted rail chair), immaculate ex-works stock with shiny buffers, and the use of industrial locos on main line track.  You know who you are...

 

With 'foreign' layouts, I am less aware of the correct methods of operation, but will respond favourably to something that looks right and runs well

 

My absolute layouts are those that have what I would describe as a personality.  We are in very subjective territory here, but a believable location, back story, sense of geography/geology, an 'atmosphere' cuts the mustard for me every time, and trancends the prototype modelled and the discipline it is modelled in.  Tolerably accurate modelling of actual locations has this built in, of course.  It is not dependent on size of layout, but on a consistent modelling standard and believable operation.  Nobody would have described Frank Dyer's Borchester as fine scale modelling (though it was pretty good for it's day) or up to modern standards; it had near-trainset curves and ugly couplings.  But I've seen it and it is still a masterpeice, not a model at all in some ways, but a real railway that happens to be small and stuck in the 1950s.  Operation is absolutely superb, and I am happy to watch it all day long.  It is, IMHO, significant, that the operators of this railway are trained and experienced in it's operation, and have the expertise to put on a good show.  If I can operate a layout after just being shown where the knobs and switches are, this is not a measure of how intuitive and effective your operating is, but how unrealistic.

 

I think this is significant.  It would be no doubt possible to recreate Borchester with modern RTR and DCC operation, though the curvature required would probably mean you'd have to ease the space a little.  But it would be just as complex to operate properly and you'd need the same number of skilled and experienced operators to pull off those multiple simultaneous moves and maintain the timetable.  

 

For me, and I accept I'm only me and not even anyone else never mind everyone else, it is not about the prototype, scale, discipline, or even the standard of modelling of the layout, it is about the overall believability of the situation and it's operation.  Timetables, working to real rules and regulations, and correct train formations help this.  I would rather see a Hornby tinplate railway properly operated than a perfect rendition of Clapham Junction badly operated; my imagination can fill in the gaps with the tinplate but is prevented from doing so on Clapham Junction the second time I see the same Brighton Belle set pass through within 2 minutes while nothing is happening in the carriage sidings because there aren't enough operators to run them.

 

So, to refer to the OP's original point, I am biased, but not towards or away from the UK, although that is what I know about and hence what I model, but towards a certain philosophical approach to modelling railways.  Significantly, I think of it as modelling railways, not building model railways; my own layout, which will never be exhibited because that's not what it's for, is run as prototypically as I can manage to serve the needs of a small South Wales mining village isolated at the head of it's narrow valley in the 1950s, providing a service for it's passengers, it's shops and small factories and farms, and of course it's colliery to an advertised timetable.  It is a real railway that serves an imaginary community in a real location where one never existed.

 

I do not wish to suggest that this is the 'correct' way to go about things; Rule 1 is paramount here, but is an indication of what I like to look at if I go to an exhibition.  Whatever floats your boat is what floats your boat.  Seminal layouts for me, apart from Borchester, are Chris Pemberton's 'North Shields', and some of Iain Rice's micro layouts, both of which have influenced my own feeble effort.  My 'standard' is RTR/RTP improved with weathering, but I'm not averse to the odd kit to get what I want if I can't source it ready made.  I enjoy modelling, but enjoy operating more!

Edited May 14, 2019 by The Johnster

[Steamport Southport]

4 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

My particular bugbear is minimum space and shunting puzzles. Yes. I know you can fit loads into a 4' x 1' piece of wood. But I don't particularly want to see them apart from a quick glance. They might be fun to operate, but a bit boring to watch. To clarify, I mean crammed into a small space, I'm not talking about small layouts in general.

 

I can watch something like Grantham all day. I managed two hours when it was at Barrow Hill, but having it next to the beer helped!

 

 

Jason

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Steamport Southport