Replacement for Mashima

[hayfield]

14 hours ago, Ruston said:

The motors are the same as anyone can buy direct from China for under a pound. So that's £7 for a couple of screws and a diagram? I'll stick to soldering them on, thanks. It's worked perfectly on the 5 that I've fitted so far...

 

I have been told the opposite, agreed the cost is very low, but if you know how the system works you can buy the same motor but in various formats.

 

As explained these very cheap motors are surplus stock and therefore sold at an appropriate price

[Nile]

Screws for the Mitsumi motors are also available on ebay, look for M2 laptop screws.

 

[Ruston]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

I have been told the opposite, agreed the cost is very low, but if you know how the system works you can buy the same motor but in various formats.

 

As explained these very cheap motors are surplus stock and therefore sold at an appropriate price

I'm sorry but I don't understand at all what you are getting at. What system? What formats? The Mitsumi motors are all the same size and format, so if you buy one from cctransuk it's the very same motor that you can buy from China for 99p and less. The only difference being that you're paying £7 for a couple of screws and a drawing that shows you where to drill holes in your gearbox. Do you mean N20 motors with gearboxes? They do come in different formats, speeds and voltages. There are also UK middlemen selling N20s and adding on several pounds profit (plus postage, which is free straight from China) for no added value whatsoever.

[cctransuk]

15 hours ago, Ruston said:

The motors are the same as anyone can buy direct from China for under a pound. So that's £7 for a couple of screws and a diagram? I'll stick to soldering them on, thanks. It's worked perfectly on the 5 that I've fitted so far...

 

That is perfectly true, and I have made no secret of the fact.

 

Nonetheless, a very considerable number of customers have indicated their reluctance to purchase from unknown suppliers overseas and have ordered, on average, five motors each.

 

I provide a UK, accountable source for Mitsumi motors, together with fixing screws and installation details.

 

Many modellers clearly find this service more valuable than yourself, but that is their choice; I still have plenty of motors in stock.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[cctransuk]

17 hours ago, Ruston said:

The motors are the same as anyone can buy direct from China for under a pound. So that's £7 for a couple of screws and a diagram? I'll stick to soldering them on, thanks. It's worked perfectly on the 5 that I've fitted so far...

 

Ruston (sorry to address you so, not knowing your real name),

 

Having re-read your e-mail and detected, as I'm sure most other readers will have, a note of contemptuous dismissal, and an implication that my actions are somehow underhanded, deceptive or otherwise dishonest, I feel compelled to respond to you in more detail.

 

Some four or more years ago, at the time that I was commencing the build of an MPD kit for an LMS 3F 0-6-0, I became aware that the demise of Mashima motors was not far off. I therefore searched the internet for alternatives and chanced upon an overseas trader offering the Mitsumi Japanese motor. The specification being similar to the Mashima motor, I decided to purchase a couple to try; one to go into the MPD 3F. I had not used the internet for overseas purchases before, and was not confident that I would receive the goods ordered.

 

Nonetheless, the motors duly appeared and seemed ideal for the 3F project. I was writing a thread, here on RMweb, concerning the MPD 3F build, and I mentioned the alternative Mitsumi motor that I was trialling in place of the usual Mashima. Performance was excellent, and I reported this in my build thread.

 

I was immediately contacted by list members asking if I could supply the Mitsumi motor for them to try. The motors were, at that time, being offered by only a couple of sources, which also indicated that availability of supply was limited and unlikely to be long-term. Since I foresaw a considerable personal need for these motors, and in view of the demand from other modellers, I ordered a job lot of 100 motors.

 

The motors came fitted with brass worms, which required removal before the motors could be used with High Level, etc. gearboxes. The fixing holes on the Mitsumi motors were arranged differently to those on Mashima motors, and fixing screws were not supplied. So, I removed the worms from 100 motors; (not a five minute task I can assure you); devised, drew up and printed an installation diagram for third party users, and sourced a bulk supply of fixing screws, which were not available in single digit quantities.

 

I added the Mitsumi motors to my transfer website, pricing them at the same unit price as a standard transfer sheet, which includes UK P&P. Orders came in at a rate way in excess of that which I had anticipated - though perhaps not surprisingly, given that the price is around half of that of the equivalent Mashima motor. I quickly found myself having to seek alternative suppliers for the motors, (the original sources quickly drying-up); and on-line availability has subsequently become more widespread. Demand has moderated over time - no doubt due to more modellers deciding to self-source - but I continue to receive a steady flow of orders.

 

The attraction for customers seems to be that I am an easily identifiable, UK source of the Mitsumi motor, with a good service reputation, offering by-return delivery of single or multiple numbers of motors complete with fixing screws and installation information, and who can be easily contacted in the unlikely case of problems.

 

As to the price that I charge - currently £8.00 - from this must be deducted my costs as follows :-

 

i]  cost of motor;

 

ii] cost of fixing screws, printing fixing diagram, poly bag, padded envelope and postage - the latter alone being currently £1.06 due to the thickness of the motor dictating large letter rate; I provide first class by-return postage as a standard part of my service;

 

iii] cost of driving to the Royal Mail letter office to post the package, (due to their ludicrously early letterbox last collection times).

 

Once these costs are deducted, the balance is nowhere near a reasonable hourly rate for the time taken.

 

In conclusion, Ruston, would you offer such a service for less than I charge?

 

..... and if so, why don't you?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by cctransuk

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Ruston said:

I'm sorry but I don't understand at all what you are getting at. What system? What formats? The Mitsumi motors are all the same size and format, so if you buy one from cctransuk it's the very same motor that you can buy from China for 99p and less. The only difference being that you're paying £7 for a couple of screws and a drawing that shows you where to drill holes in your gearbox. Do you mean N20 motors with gearboxes? They do come in different formats, speeds and voltages. There are also UK middlemen selling N20s and adding on several pounds profit (plus postage, which is free straight from China) for no added value whatsoever.

 

I am not talking about a person going direct to a supplier then retailing them themselves, a totally different subject

 

You can buy motors which look the same but the specification differs. A quick analogy that I know of is the MW/MRRC 005, there are two versions which both look the same but one is for locos (slower revving) the other for slot cars (higher revving). I believe its the way they have been wound. The motor I sourced from China works, but a better quality version more suited to the application I wish to use it in will work better

 

I have been told by someone far knowledgeable, when you go to the manufacturer of motors you choose the specification that suits your needs, this goes for both standard and coreless motors. 

[Ruston]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Ruston (sorry to address you so, not knowing your real name),

 

Having re-read your e-mail and detected, as I'm sure most other readers will have, a note of contemptuous dismissal, and an implication that my actions are somehow underhanded, deceptive or otherwise dishonest, I feel compelled to respond to you in more detail.

Nowhere have I suggested that you're doing anything underhand, deceptive or dishonest.

 

Quote

The attraction for customers seems to be that I am an easily identifiable, UK source of the Mitsumi motor, with a good service reputation, offering by-return delivery of single or multiple numbers of motors complete with fixing screws and installation information, and who can be easily contacted in the unlikely case of problems.

 

As to the price that I charge - currently £8.00 - from this must be deducted my costs as follows :-

 

i]  cost of motor;

 

ii] cost of fixing screws, printing fixing diagram, poly bag, padded envelope and postage - the latter alone being currently £1.06 due to the thickness of the motor dictating large letter rate; I provide first class by-return postage as a standard part of my service;

 

iii] cost of driving to the Royal Mail letter office to post the package, (due to their ludicrously early letterbox last collection times).

 

Once these costs are deducted, the balance is nowhere near a reasonable hourly rate for the time taken.

 

In conclusion, Ruston, would you offer such a service for less than I charge?

 

..... and if so, why don't you?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

I am simply pointing out another way of doing things, where people can save themselves £7 on every motor and am saying that, in my opinion, your price gives poor value for money. The choice of how to spend their money is then entirely up to them.

 

Removing the worm is done easily by crushing it in a vice, which  allows it to fall off, leaving the motor and shaft completely undamaged.

 

Fixing the motor to the gearbox can be accomplished by soldering it on. It works just as well as screwing it on and can be just as easily removed, if needed. I have never damaged a motor by doing this yet and if I did, at under a pound per motor, I've lost no more than a pound and can easily replace it. When using High Level gearboxes there is no need to take the motor on and off when testing a loco during assembly as they are almost all now fitted with grub screws in the final drive gear, rather than the old loctited gears.

 

As for being an easily identifiable source who can be easily contacted in the unlikely case of problems then I'm sure you are but I can buy 8 motors, direct from China, for the price of one that is identical to those motors from you. If one of them  doesn't work then I've lost a pound and it really isn't worth worrying about. If I do need 8 motors then I can save £56 from buying direct from China over your own prices and I don't know about anyone else but that's not the kind of money I like to throw away, easily identifiable source or not.

 

Would I offer a service at less than you charge? You call it a service, I call it a hefty profit margin for very little added value but that's just my opinion and there's nothing wrong with, or underhand, about it. As I said, it's up to people how they spend their money...

 

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Ruston

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

I have been told by someone far knowledgeable, when you go to the manufacturer of motors you choose the specification that suits your needs, this goes for both standard and coreless motors. 

 

Completely true - IF you are able to order 1000+ motors (or more in many cases).

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[cctransuk]

36 minutes ago, Ruston said:

Nowhere have I suggested that you're doing anything underhand, deceptive or dishonest.

 

How else would most people read "The motors are the same as anyone can buy direct from China for under a pound. So that's £7 for a couple of screws and a diagram"?

 

I have offered a complete breakdown of my costs, and still you say "in my opinion, your price gives poor value for money".

 

If your analysis of my offer of these motors was a fair one, I would now be sitting on the best part of the original 100 Mitsumi motors.

 

As it is, the buyers of well in excess of 1000 motors disagree with you.

 

I rest my case.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited August 10, 2019 by cctransuk

[Ruston]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

How else would most people read "The motors are the same as anyone can buy direct from China for under a pound. So that's £7 for a couple of screws and a diagram"?

 

I have offered a complete breakdown of my costs, and still you say "in my opinion, your price gives poor value for money".

 

If your analysis of my offer of these motors was a fair one, I would now be sitting on the best part of the original 100 Mitsumi motors.

 

As it is, the buyers of well in excess of 1000 motors disagree with you.

 

I rest my case.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

You can take it however you want to take it but I have not now or previously said that you are being underhand or dishonest. The fact remains that I, or anyone else, can obtain the very same motor that you supply for an eighth of the price that you charge. Your added value in real terms is a pair of screws and a drawing. All that about being a an "identifiable source" is worthless. We're talking about motors that are worth under one pound, not expensive and complex electronics that require customer support. And so, in my opinion, your 'service' is neither good value, nor even necessary regarding these motors as there is an alternative zero-cost means of attaching them to gearboxes.

 

Your own break down of the costs show what profit you make, not the value to the customer. Any value placed on you being an "identifiable source" is up to the individual and, as I have said before, it is up to them how they spend their money. If you wish to continue to put your words in my mouth, so-to-speak then carry on but as far as I am concerned, I have made my point and there is no more to be said.

[cctransuk]

16 minutes ago, Ruston said:

You can take it however you want to take it but I have not now or previously said that you are being underhand or dishonest. The fact remains that I, or anyone else, can obtain the very same motor that you supply for an eighth of the price that you charge. Your added value in real terms is a pair of screws and a drawing. All that about being a an "identifiable source" is worthless. We're talking about motors that are worth under one pound, not expensive and complex electronics that require customer support. And so, in my opinion, your 'service' is neither good value, nor even necessary regarding these motors as there is an alternative zero-cost means of attaching them to gearboxes.

 

Your own break down of the costs show what profit you make, not the value to the customer. Any value placed on you being an "identifiable source" is up to the individual and, as I have said before, it is up to them how they spend their money. If you wish to continue to put your words in my mouth, so-to-speak then carry on but as far as I am concerned, I have made my point and there is no more to be said.

 

.... and that way you, my customers and I are all happy.

 

Your original post was an unnecessary snipe and, ultimately, to no purpose as far as those who choose to buy from a source which they trust.

 

Each to their own, as you so correctly point out.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

[PenrithBeacon]

Referring back to the OP I now have bought several of the motors in question but I haven't tested them yet.

 

I'm astonished, quite frankly, about the controversy over the price of these and similar items bearing in mind the substantial sums most of us pay for kits and RTR. Personally I'd rather pay extra from a reputable UK supplier than somebody faceless selling remaindered goods.

 

Regards

[cctransuk]

13 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Referring back to the OP I now have bought several of the motors in question but I haven't tested them yet.

 

I'm astonished, quite frankly, about the controversy over the price of these and similar items bearing in mind the substantial sums most of us pay for kits and RTR. Personally I'd rather pay extra from a reputable UK supplier than somebody faceless selling remaindered goods.

 

Regards

 

Thank you - you are in good company.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Wheres_Wally]

No one is being forced to buy these motors, so I really don't understand what @Ruston is getting so angry about. If we want to faff around on the net, we can bag a "bargain". If not, we can buy with screws and drawing for a few quid. That's how free markets work - the customer gets to decide. 

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, Ruston said:

You can take it however you want to take it but I have not now or previously said that you are being underhand or dishonest. The fact remains that I, or anyone else, can obtain the very same motor that you supply for an eighth of the price that you charge. Your added value in real terms is a pair of screws and a drawing. All that about being a an "identifiable source" is worthless. We're talking about motors that are worth under one pound, not expensive and complex electronics that require customer support. And so, in my opinion, your 'service' is neither good value, nor even necessary regarding these motors as there is an alternative zero-cost means of attaching them to gearboxes.

 

Your own break down of the costs show what profit you make, not the value to the customer. Any value placed on you being an "identifiable source" is up to the individual and, as I have said before, it is up to them how they spend their money. If you wish to continue to put your words in my mouth, so-to-speak then carry on but as far as I am concerned, I have made my point and there is no more to be said.

 

 

I think you would be amazed at the basic unit cost of items that importers pay for goods. But the basic cost is probably the most minor of the costs of trading in the UK. The motors I bought as I have said cost me less less that the cost that I would have to pay for either posting or the jiffy bag. If I were to enter into supplying them, then there are a whole extra costs including replacement of faulty items and don't forget 1/5th of the cost goes to the tax man.

 

I was quite happy for the Chinese government to subsidise my modelling, whilst being a different motor to the one John supplies, would I buy another 4 !! I don't think so. The gearboxes I use are 4+ times the cost of the motors For a better quality item I happily pay £20+ for quality.

 

I have been told that there is a possibility for about £25 a decent quality coreless motor may be available in the future and for half that a direct replacement for the Mashima's could be available. Of course the person buying these items would have bought them for quite a bit less than the retail price, but along with a whole host of other costs the R&D costs in finding a suitable item must be paid for. Then there is the cost of gearboxes etc.

[PenrithBeacon]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

 

...

 

I have been told that there is a possibility for about £25 a decent quality coreless motor may be available in the future and for half that a direct replacement for the Mashima's could be available.

...

But Mashimas are currently available for £28 on eBay!

 

Regards

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

But Mashimas are currently available for £28 on eBay!

 

Regards

 

A bad piece of writing on my post, "possibility of a decent quality coreless (better performance than a conventional motor) motor at £25, a direct replacement of a Mashima for half that (£12)

[hayfield]

14 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Thank you - you are in good company.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

John 

 

I bought a pack of 6 screws from a chap in the UK for Mashima motors, cost me £4.39 inc postage, well the stamp & envelope took up 25% of the costs, and I had a replacement screw allowing me to use a £20 motor very quickly and have a few spares. Now I subsequently bought 100 directly from China for £2.05 inc postage, does that mean the first one was bad value, no because I used the information gleaned from that purchase to enable me to buy the others. I had tried two motor suppliers previously to buy some but both were very low on stocks, I can give both a few each as a thank you for previous assistance. I see it as a £4.39 investment

 

Keep up the good work 

[cctransuk]

27 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

John 

 

I bought a pack of 6 screws from a chap in the UK for Mashima motors, cost me £4.39 inc postage, well the stamp & envelope took up 25% of the costs, and I had a replacement screw allowing me to use a £20 motor very quickly and have a few spares. Now I subsequently bought 100 directly from China for £2.05 inc postage, does that mean the first one was bad value, no because I used the information gleaned from that purchase to enable me to buy the others. I had tried two motor suppliers previously to buy some but both were very low on stocks, I can give both a few each as a thank you for previous assistance. I see it as a £4.39 investment

 

Keep up the good work 

 

It does strike me as odd that certain people seem to think that the difference between my bulk purchase price of motors and the selling price is pure profit - especially when the postage alone costs more than the motor!

 

On that basis, the likes of Tesco, Asda etc. should be operating as selfless, munificent foundations, and charging a fraction of their current prices - yeah right !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[hayfield]

 

I guess its an easy assumption to make, especially if you have no experience of running a business and having to make a profit.

 

For me selling a few surplus items on eBay is easy as I tend to re-use packing and take no notice of the time I spend listing, packing then posting. However once in retailing add sourcing the items, packaging giving a guarantee, dealing with enquiries etc. And I guess there are many other items. No one has mentioned the investment in time sourcing, then testing the items.

 

Keep up the good work 

[Ruston]

20 hours ago, Wheres_Wally said:

No one is being forced to buy these motors, so I really don't understand what @Ruston is getting so angry about. If we want to faff around on the net, we can bag a "bargain". If not, we can buy with screws and drawing for a few quid. That's how free markets work - the customer gets to decide. 

I said I'd done with this but you send me a notification with the @Ruston, so here I am again. I am not getting angry at all. I made a statement of fact and Mr. Isherwood suggested that I was implying he was dishonest, deceitful and underhand, which I have never said at all, so I have a right to respond to that, have I not? Where have I used any angry language?

 

When you say "faff around on the internet" I can only assume that you have never bought any motors from ebay. You click the 'buy it now' and as your card details are held by ebay that's all there is to it. A couple of weeks later the postie pops the package through the door (which the sender has paid the postage on) and that's it. I can't think of a way of buying something that's less of a faff.

 

Let's all just agree to disagree. Some people are fine with soldering a motor on, others are not. Some people are fine with paying over the odds for things, others are not.

 

[trustytrev]

Hello,

        I wonder if  a LocationWest Riding could have any bearing on the course of this discussion. With regard to cost it is well known Yorkshiremen don't like parting with it.

But then they don't like being out done on being tight by someone from Lancashire either.

trustytrev.:)

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Ruston said:

I said I'd done with this but you send me a notification with the @Ruston, so here I am again. I am not getting angry at all. I made a statement of fact and Mr. Isherwood suggested that I was implying he was dishonest, deceitful and underhand, which I have never said at all, so I have a right to respond to that, have I not? Where have I used any angry language?

 

When you say "faff around on the internet" I can only assume that you have never bought any motors from ebay. You click the 'buy it now' and as your card details are held by ebay that's all there is to it. A couple of weeks later the postie pops the package through the door (which the sender has paid the postage on) and that's it. I can't think of a way of buying something that's less of a faff.

 

Let's all just agree to disagree. Some people are fine with soldering a motor on, others are not. Some people are fine with paying over the odds for things, others are not.

 

 

To find out just how easy it is to buy a motor for my loco on ebay, I put a quick search in the model trains section for a 12 volt electric motor, this is the result

 

5,077 results for 12 volt electric motors

 

After someone has done all the leg work it may be quite easy, but to start off with someone needs to firstly know what they are looking for, then buy it and finally test it

 

Whilst I have never bought one of the motors in question, thanks to the efforts of other RMweb members as I said I bought 4 items for testing, the cost to me was £3.48 inc postage (87p each) The gearbox I attached them to cost £9.95. I found that the motor is high revving and needs a higher gear ratio. No doubt I will end up replacing it with a motor that more suits my needs.  A year ago I bought a tiny coreless motor, when I got round to use it I found it was faulty, I contacted the seller (a UK business) and it was changed without a quibble. I doubt if these Chinese sellers would do the same

[micklner]

10 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

To find out just how easy it is to buy a motor for my loco on ebay, I put a quick search in the model trains section for a 12 volt electric motor, this is the result

 

5,077 results for 12 volt electric motors

 

After someone has done all the leg work it may be quite easy, but to start off with someone needs to firstly know what they are looking for, then buy it and finally test it

 

Whilst I have never bought one of the motors in question, thanks to the efforts of other RMweb members as I said I bought 4 items for testing, the cost to me was £3.48 inc postage (87p each) The gearbox I attached them to cost £9.95. I found that the motor is high revving and needs a higher gear ratio. No doubt I will end up replacing it with a motor that more suits my needs.  A year ago I bought a tiny coreless motor, when I got round to use it I found it was faulty, I contacted the seller (a UK business) and it was changed without a quibble. I doubt if these Chinese sellers would do the same

I bought some small cordless motors from China which were faulty, I was refunded the same day. There are lots of links and names of motors on this thread and elsewhere just follow the links instead of a general search= simples.

For some reason some people shy away from eBay ,which is utter nonsense. It heavily leans towards the buyer , any problems and eBay will refund your money if a seller "misbehaves" ,not as easy buying from some UK sites I have used in the past, when it comes to refunds. 

 

 

[Ruston]

11 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

To find out just how easy it is to buy a motor for my loco on ebay, I put a quick search in the model trains section for a 12 volt electric motor, this is the result

 

5,077 results for 12 volt electric motors

 

After someone has done all the leg work it may be quite easy, but to start off with someone needs to firstly know what they are looking for, then buy it and finally test it

 

Whilst I have never bought one of the motors in question, thanks to the efforts of other RMweb members as I said I bought 4 items for testing, the cost to me was £3.48 inc postage (87p each) The gearbox I attached them to cost £9.95. I found that the motor is high revving and needs a higher gear ratio. No doubt I will end up replacing it with a motor that more suits my needs.  A year ago I bought a tiny coreless motor, when I got round to use it I found it was faulty, I contacted the seller (a UK business) and it was changed without a quibble. I doubt if these Chinese sellers would do the same

That's a very vague search and it's to be expected you would get so many results. Type in Mitsumi Motor and you get only 84 results, the first of which is the very same motor that we're discussing and is from a UK supplier. Further down the page and you'll find you can buy 5 for £3.09! If by 'leg work' you mean searching ebay then it really isn't difficult. I found for myself a source of the N20-sized motors without gearboxes that I mentioned much earlier on in this thread. I bought one for £1.49 and tested it in a loco. It was fine and did the job, so I bought some more. I've just bought another type of motor to try out and I don't yet know if it's suitable but if it isn't I've lost a couple of quid. If it doesn't work they will refund my money. This idea that these Chinese sellers are untrustworthy seems a little xenophobic to me...

 

It's not rocket science, or some expensive R&D programme, it's the risk of a couple of quid and a few minutes on the internet. Try it and you may be surprised what you can find.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Ruston