Outbased Diesel shunters in the 1970s - how long without fueling?

[Mike Storey]

17 minutes ago, eastwestdivide said:

There's a big RCTS feature on Kent and Sussex shunters in the 70s, 80s, 90s at:

http://rcts.org.uk/features/diesel-dilemmas/kent-and-east-sussex-shunting-locomotives-1970s-80s-and-90s

 

 

Very interesting, firstly for a few sightings of 08's in Kent, but mainly in the 70's. But also for the lack of a request for sightings on the Sheerness branch, where they were probably the busiest 09's in Kent, at least on running lines, in the 80's (i.e. discounting the work done inside Dover Town, Tonbridge, etc yards).

 

[caradoc]

11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

Its most likely the incident occurred post privatisation as a way of avoiding paying Railtrack large sums of money.

 

By the mid 1990s there was concerted pressure to get rid of such pain in the backside slow speed moves with track access charges weighted accordingly to discourage the practice. Some companies even went so far as to de-register their shunters to save on money (which of course bared them from being transferred by ail between depots) as a cost saving measure.

 

As such I can quite easily believe that a company found it cheaper to send a shunter by road to another depot for refuelling, particularly if said loco was not used very much and thus would last quite a while on  tank of fuel.

 

 

 

The problem of course with any such slow speed move, whether a Class 08 or (more likely nowadays) a vehicle on a wheelskate, is finding a path for it without causing havoc; Impossible during the day on many, if not all, routes without wrecking the passenger timetable, and difficult at night due to the effect on planned possessions and maintenance.

 

[eastwestdivide]

57 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Very interesting, firstly for a few sightings of 08's in Kent, but mainly in the 70's. But also for the lack of a request for sightings on the Sheerness branch, where they were probably the busiest 09's in Kent, at least on running lines, in the 80's (i.e. discounting the work done inside Dover Town, Tonbridge, etc yards).

 

Yes, Hither Green and Ashford had a fair few 08s allocated, at least early on in that period.

My Platform 5 book of 1980 has:

HG with 08374 08375 08378 08653 08760 and 09004/06/07/10

AF with 08380 08381 08383 08385 08414 08811 08830 08833 08847 and 09008/11/13/18/19/21/22/23

[dvdlcs]

I remember reading somewhere years ago - so I've no idea of the source - that the benefit of the diesel shunter was noticed almost immediately with the quoted example of a steam shunter having to stop for water (coal wasn't mentioned) twice a day whereas a diesel shunter could work at a remote yard for a week before requiring fuel.

 

But as others have said the duration between fuelling would, like anything else, depend on the use that was made of it in between fuelling.

 

With respect to trips on the mainline, I know that 08s were slow (20mph then later 15mph) but the 09s and the 03s were geared higher, around 27mph. But back then the railway had (a) more track capacity and (b) slower moving trains - slotting a shunter move among class 8 and 9 freights would be somewhat simpler then rather than now.

 

Not sure how the 0-4-0 diesel shunters (01s, 02s, etc.) fared in terms of top speed and 'comfort' when travelling on the mainline, although perhaps they didn't as they were more likely to be used locally to their home base rather than remotely. Though someone will now tell me (us) otherwise... thinking while typing, the Scottish 06s could have been based some distance from their home depots...

[Michael Edge]

Bank Hall in Liverpool supplied an 02 to shunt a yard at the south end of the docks, when the dock railway was severed at the Pier Head it took a whole 8 hour shift to change over this loco, working around Liverpool.

[royaloak]

41 minutes ago, dvdlcs said:

I know that 08s were slow (20mph then later 15mph)

I thought (and I might well be wrong) that only the Southern 08s were 20mph, on all other regions they were 15mph from delivery.

[csvt2004]

Looking back at my notes, D3568 was the Skipton pilot and it went to Holbeck for fuel. It made the trip on 01/03/74 and then again on 10/04/74 . So about six weeks. I can't imagine that it worked more than a couple of hours a day at Skipton.

[SED Freightman]

On 04/06/2019 at 14:54, The Stationmaster said:

By the 1970s that method of refuelling had become illegal as there was no means of dealing with any spillage.   It might still have happened, and i know of one place where it is still done (illegally) today although that involves main line locos and not a 350 or other shunter.

It is not the method of refuelling (from road tanker, bowser, oil drum, etc.) that is illegal, but the adequacy or otherwise of the arrangements in place to capture any spillage and hence prevent ground comtamination.  As you mention, there is at least one mainline operator whose arrangements in respect of spill containment when refuelling locos leaves a lot to be desired and has resulted in ground contamination at a number of locations, but so far no prosecutions as far as I am aware.

[Wickham Green]

22 hours ago, royaloak said:

I thought (and I might well be wrong) that only the Southern 08s were 20mph, on all other regions they were 15mph from delivery.

Seems to be a bit of a grey area as the Southern's go-faster 350s became 09s when TOPS classes were invented - but I'm not sure whether they started life with different gearing or received it later.

[SED Freightman]

The following South Eastern Division 08/09 movements appear in the WTT, Section WK commencing 08/05/1978, they are all shewn as CM&EE a/c and so would have been for fuelling / maintenance, there were other several workings for traffic purposes  :-

 

0K00 0040 MX Y Chart Leacon to Shepherds Well arr.0215

0Y09 0040 MX Y Chart Leacon to Dover Marine arr.0155

0Y09 0245 MX Y Shepherds Well to Dover Marine arr.0310

0Y07 0325 SO Y Dover Marine to Chart Leacon arr.0427

0Y07 0330 MSX Y Dover Marine to Chart Leacon arr.0437

 

0K00 0001 MX Y Chart Leacon to Ramsgate arr.0150 via Canterbury West

0Y07 0240 MX Y Ramsgate to Chart Leacon arr.0430 via Canterbury West

 

0Y06 0001 TThFO Y Chart Leacon to Tonbridge W Yd arr.0135

0Y07 0230 TThFO Y Tonbridge W Yd to Chart Leacon arr.0412

 

The following should also presumably have been shewn as CM&EE a/c along with a move from Hither Green to Hoo Junction which does not appear in the WTT, but may perhaps have been in a supplement that I do not have :-

0Y05 0640 SUN Gillingham to Hither Green arr.0839 via Sole Street

0Y11 1105 SUN Hoo Junction to Gillingham arr.1131

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

Seems to be a bit of a grey area as the Southern's go-faster 350s became 09s when TOPS classes were invented - but I'm not sure whether they started life with different gearing or received it later.

IIRC the locos that became the 09s were built with faster gearing and given air braking from the outset to the Southern's specification.  In pre-TOPS days they were not considered as a separate class, but a variation of the standard 350hp shunting engine.

Edited June 6, 2019 by The Johnster

[Mike Storey]

4 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

The following South Eastern Division 08/09 movements appear in the WTT, Section WK commencing 08/05/1978, they are all shewn as CM&EE a/c and so would have been for fuelling / maintenance, there were other several workings for traffic purposes  :-

 

0K00 0040 MX Y Chart Leacon to Shepherds Well arr.0215

0Y09 0040 MX Y Chart Leacon to Dover Marine arr.0155

0Y09 0245 MX Y Shepherds Well to Dover Marine arr.0310

0Y07 0325 SO Y Dover Marine to Chart Leacon arr.0427

0Y07 0330 MSX Y Dover Marine to Chart Leacon arr.0437

 

0K00 0001 MX Y Chart Leacon to Ramsgate arr.0150 via Canterbury West

0Y07 0240 MX Y Ramsgate to Chart Leacon arr.0430 via Canterbury West

 

0Y06 0001 TThFO Y Chart Leacon to Tonbridge W Yd arr.0135

0Y07 0230 TThFO Y Tonbridge W Yd to Chart Leacon arr.0412

 

The following should also presumably have been shewn as CM&EE a/c along with a move from Hither Green to Hoo Junction which does not appear in the WTT, but may perhaps have been in a supplement that I do not have :-

0Y05 0640 SUN Gillingham to Hither Green arr.0839 via Sole Street

0Y11 1105 SUN Hoo Junction to Gillingham arr.1131

 

One bizarre fact concerning Dover Town was that a fuelling point was finally installed there not many years before it closed, to obviate the frequent trips to Chart Leacon for fuel. IIRC that was after the 09's had been withdrawn and 33's were largely used to shunt the yard and load/unload the train ferries!!

 

[Swindon 123]

On 05/06/2019 at 13:22, royaloak said:

I thought (and I might well be wrong) that only the Southern 08s were 20mph, on all other regions they were 15mph from delivery.

08's originally had a top speed of 20MPH, but after a few instances of siezed traction motors and bent coupling rods, this was reduced to 15MPH in the early 80's. 09's tops speed was 27MPH from new and remained so thoughout their lives. They didn't all start off on the SR, with the LMR having some in the 60's up until the 70's. The 08 stabled at Hereford when I was there, came from Cardiff Canton, Worcester supplied it before that. When fuelling of locos was stopped at the depot at Hereford, they used to fuel from a road tanker, but had to go to Canton for major exams or repairs. This was a long days work, not made much easier when the 09's replaced to 08's to try and speed things up. Still took and 8 hour shift to get one from Canton to Hereford, mostly via all the goods loops en-route.

 

Paul J.

[royaloak]

2 hours ago, Swindon 123 said:

08's originally had a top speed of 20MPH, but after a few instances of siezed traction motors and bent coupling rods, this was reduced to 15MPH in the early 80's. 09's tops speed was 27MPH from new and remained so thoughout their lives. They didn't all start off on the SR, with the LMR having some in the 60's up until the 70's. The 08 stabled at Hereford when I was there, came from Cardiff Canton, Worcester supplied it before that. When fuelling of locos was stopped at the depot at Hereford, they used to fuel from a road tanker, but had to go to Canton for major exams or repairs. This was a long days work, not made much easier when the 09's replaced to 08's to try and speed things up. Still took and 8 hour shift to get one from Canton to Hereford, mostly via all the goods loops en-route.

 

Paul J.

The LMR 09s were easily identified after transfer to the Southern Region because they didnt have high level brake pipes.

[Gwiwer]

How long any locomotive can go without refuelling is a factor of workload, engine thirst and overall condition.

 

The pair of locos on Holyhead breakwater (D2954/5, later 01001/2) were very little used and on an entirely isolated piece of line with no option to be run anywhere else for refuelling.  I understand that arrangements were made locally to pump a little diesel into the tanks a couple of times a year from the station fuelling point.

 

It may be overlooked now but in the days when a large number of small (and slow) shunting locos existed there were in general fewer trains about on the network.  It would not be easy today to find a 20mph path over more than a mile or two but 50 years ago it wasn't usually too hard.  Often overnight but sometimes with timetabled daytime moves. For example the loco diagrammed to shunt the former Worthing Central yard returned to Brighton on a Friday afternoon between passenger trains and came back on duty early Monday morning.  During its working week it was in use shunting the yard every morning but might not have travelled more than a mile or two in total.

 

Stratford had one of the larger allocations of shunters and one of the most dispersed in terms of work locations.  Several were required around the depot and works, more up the road at Temple Mills, more again in Poplar Docks and plenty down the line around the Thames-side industrial locations not least the various Ford facilities.  These would all have had to trundle back home at some time though fuel was available in several other locations including Ripple Lane and (I believe) within Poplar Docks.  

 

[Nearholmer]

Devon's Road?

[Swindon 123]

4 hours ago, royaloak said:

The LMR 09s were easily identified after transfer to the Southern Region because they didnt have high level brake pipes.

Not true I'm afraid. D4105 (09017) to D4114 (09026) all started their lives at LMR depots, with D4112 & D4113 (09024 & 09025) staying on the LMR until 1973, when they migrated to the SR in Jan 1976, via an 18 month spell at Bristol. Hence 09024 & 09025 didn't get high level pipes which all the others got at the beginning of the 1970's.

 

Paul J.

[PatB]

3 hours ago, Swindon 123 said:

...when they migrated to the SR in Jan 1976, via an 18 month spell at Bristol....

 

Waiting for an available path?;)

[br2975]

On one occasion during the late 1970s, the Canton 08 outbased at Llantrisant was collected and returned home behind none other than 40199, with a brake van bringing up the rear.

[Wickham Green]

3 hours ago, br2975 said:

On one occasion during the late 1970s, the Canton 08 outbased at Llantrisant was collected and returned home behind none other than 40199, with a brake van bringing up the rear.

Which raises another question : What's the maximum towing speed for an 08 - or 09, for that matter - with or without rods ?

Edited June 7, 2019 by Wickham Green
speeling

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green said:

Which raises another question : What's the maximum towing speed for an 08 - or 09, for that matter - with or without rods ?

The same as their maximum permitted speed. Whether the rods are fitted or not makes no difference, as the limiting factor is the speed of the traction motors, and they are gear coupled to the outer axles. From memory of my days working with GEC Traction, who got a steady stream of oversped 08 motors back at Preston, the proper method for the shed despatching them to jack the traction motors out of gear, which converted them to 6-coupled wagons.

 

Jim

[Nearholmer]

They have double-reduction gearing, to ensure that the motors are spinning fast, and self-ventilating nicely, when they are working heavily at low speed. Hence, quite modest road speeds have the motors whirling round at a terrific rate.

 

The first iteration of the design, the ones bought in the 1930s by the LMS, SR and GWR, had single-reduction gearing and tended to suffer traction-motor overheating.

[Steamport Southport]

On 05/06/2019 at 12:51, Michael Edge said:

Bank Hall in Liverpool supplied an 02 to shunt a yard at the south end of the docks, when the dock railway was severed at the Pier Head it took a whole 8 hour shift to change over this loco, working around Liverpool.

 

You could walk it in a couple of hours. 

 

I take it that was the reason they ended up at Allerton.

 

 

 

Jason

[Michael Edge]

The original route would have been done at walking pace, that was the limit on the public road sections of the MDHB - with a man walking ahead carrying a red flag. If you look at the map it's a long way round by other routes, I don't know the details of the route, there's more than one possibility, information came from a former driver.

[Steamport Southport]

If we are talking about the 1960s then I would assume they used the Cheshire Lines "loop line". The bit which is now a cycle path. It was still just about going when I was a child in the 1970s. I vaguely remember going by DMU from Gateacre to Liverpool Central High Level.

 

 

Map from Wiki.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire_Lines_Committee

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited June 7, 2019 by Steamport Southport