DJM, the end.

[Phil Parker]

2 minutes ago, Pete 75C said:

 

Why not? That would be fine. Anyone that has put money towards DJM could have the facts, as far as they are known, and what to do about it in a simple paragraph or two.

 

 

 

Can't argue with that, the information could be carried in ALL the modelling magazines.

 

However, the poster wanted "a decent article based on it in BRM, rather than a bare paragraph" and I was trying to explain why that wasn't likely to happen.

[Pete 75C]

4 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Can't argue with that, the information could be carried in ALL the modelling magazines.

 

However, the poster wanted "a decent article based on it in BRM, rather than a bare paragraph" and I was trying to explain why that wasn't likely to happen.

 

 

Apologies. My fault for not reading the post you were replying to properly. I only skimmed it. This thread's a bit like a car crash. You know you shouldn't look, but you just can't help it then feel guilty afterwards...

I personally don't think that an in depth article about DJM, the collapse, and the circumstances leading up to it would make for an interesting read. Especially if actual modelling articles are pruned to make way for it.

[The Stationmaster]

51 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Saying what? Aside from the business is closing down and you can register with the receivers, there's nothing much to say. Cut out all the froth and speculation from this thread and it's barely even a paragraph.  "RMwebbers get excited and write lots of posts" does not a meaty story make.

 

If anyone fancies researching and writing the history of DJM, there's a lot of interviews to be carried out and at least one trip to China. I doubt you'd ever collate anything that would keep everyone happy as there seem to be several versions to many parts of the story depending on who you listen to. Maybe it could be done, but not within the budget of a model railway magazine.

Apart from such an exposé hardly being the style of the UK model railway media it could be extremely difficult to get at some of the facts without access to all the paperwork regarding any claims and counter claims (although that mainly covers only one particular area - apart, potentially, from anything recent?).   But you won't really get into any nitty gritty without numbers and, in particular, details of financial transactions and the vast majority of that is private and always will be, so it won't be accessible.

 

Different people have different ideas about what has or hasn't happened although reading various model related threads in this part of the forum can be quite illuminating should anybody care to spend their time doing so.  But even they do not and cannot give definitive answers or information and without that an article would be pointless.  As has been said several times already in this thread the liquidation process might or might reveal something - we simply don't know whether it will or won't.

 

It is absolutely natural that people who have paid in money, and apparently won't now either receive any goods for it or regrettably might not get their money back, would like to know what happened to their money and why whatever happened did happen?  Alas I suspect  there will never be any clear or complete answers to such questions.  As has been pointed out in this part of the forum in the past it is known that four concerns in the model railway world ceased to deal with DJM in the past and presumably they had their reasons for severing their involvement.  But I doubt if any of them would ever be likely to state in public why they ceased to deal with DJM as much as for their own business confidentiality as for any other reason.  So it's unlikely there'll be anything from those sources either - yet again no facts and figures to include in any article so no article.

 

All we do know is that DJM has gone into voluntary liquidation.  But while we don't know why we also know, by the implication of it being voluntary,  that no other party directly forced them into liquidation .   And that could well be all we'll ever know.  So nothing to write an article about.  

Edited June 15, 2019 by The Stationmaster
Correct typo

[woodenhead]

If ever there was an article we all know which photo you should use for Dave 

[Caledonian]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Saying what? Aside from the business is closing down and you can register with the receivers, there's nothing much to say. Cut out all the froth and speculation from this thread and it's barely even a paragraph.  "RMwebbers get excited and write lots of posts" does not a meaty story make.

 

If anyone fancies researching and writing the history of DJM, there's a lot of interviews to be carried out and at least one trip to China. I doubt you'd ever collate anything that would keep everyone happy as there seem to be several versions to many parts of the story depending on who you listen to. Maybe it could be done, but not within the budget of a model railway magazine.

 

The point is well taken anent your second paragraph, but it could be useful to have a round up not just of the legal position and what the liquidators have to say, but also a quick round up as to the position with existing models, their availability, spares and so on.

[truffy]

9 minutes ago, Caledonian said:

 

The point is well taken anent your second paragraph, but it could be useful to have a round up not just of the legal position and what the liquidators have to say, but also a quick round up as to the position with existing models, their availability, spares and so on.

Most, if not all, that is in the public domain is around on RMWeb, so you could write a paragraph or two and submit it to the editor. I don't know what the going rate is for unsolicited articles, but it may well be worth more than the balance of DJM.

[jjb1970]

I am not sure we will ever know what happened. The priority needs to be trying to recover assets to repay creditors and in a case where there isn't much to liquidate and the director is not exactly Bill Gates there is a limit to what the  liquidators will be able to do. Clearly a substantial amount of money has gone somewhere, quite where it went would be interesting to know and I'm guessing the liquidators will do what they can to uncover that part of the story.

[RLWP]

13 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I'm guessing the liquidators will do what they can to uncover that part of the story.

 

I doubt it, their job is to convert assets into money and pay the creditors, not perform forensic accountancy

 

Richard

[Colin_McLeod]

What about DJM crowdfunders who are not on RMweb?  How will they know to submit a claim?

[brack]

If it isn't in a magazine's commercial interests to carry an in depth investigation, then perhaps folk might like to invest in a crowdfunded investigation/article to delve into the matter? If say 200 people were to invest £10 I'm sure we could sort the first stage (writer goes on trip to China and decides on typeface) with further payments as the second and third stages progress...

[njee20]

I'll write that. Just BACS me £10 a head. You'll have your article in 2-482 weeks, hopefully. I'll post CADs before it goes to production. Maybe.

[truffy]

17 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

What about DJM crowdfunders who are not on RMweb?  How will they know to submit a claim?

Possibly the liquidator could post a notice in the same places that DJ did?

I have no idea if this as a crowdfunding issue is standard in liquidation circles.

2 minutes ago, njee20 said:

I'll write that. Just BACS me £10 a head. You'll have your article in 2-482 weeks, hopefully. I'll post CADs before it goes to production. Maybe.

Oh, thank you very much, I almost spat beer at that!

[dibber25]

These sort of matters are potentially a legal minefield. Investigative journalists work for national newspapers etc, not model railway magazines. (CJL)

[Legend]

6 hours ago, Caledonian said:

Barring any new revelations and exciting complications this thread appears to be winding down, but given the amount of popcorn consumed, can we perhaps look forward to a decent article based on it in BRM, rather than a bare paragraph? 

 

 

 

There will be a mention in the news pages but I can’t see this being majored on in any of the mags. All of them  tend to take a  superficial view with lots of layout articles , reviews and positive news . They are not really set up as consumer magazines and rarely see anything critical in them, see anything about Heljans initial narrow gauge releases and self destructing valve gear for instance?  It does cost money to do investigative journalism . But even if they can’t visit China it would be good to get the point of view of the factory that’s holding CADs or tooling, I believe we know who that is. A phone call may suffice, although legalities need to be observed, and this may mean incurring expense consulting their legal depts .I think this is one of the biggest things that’s happened in model railways in the last 5 years, and probably the biggest loss incurred in the community. It’s a shame we don’t have a mag that’s for the consumer and would pursue  this , but don’t hold your breath!

[Nova Scotian]

If you really want to see something in a publication it'd be more meaningful to do an "opinion" piece.

Discussing impact on the hobby, bit of an obit, bit of forward looking. Less chance for defamation and elevates it to talking about the hobby, not raking over the ashes.

[brack]

40 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

These sort of matters are potentially a legal minefield. Investigative journalists work for national newspapers etc, not model railway magazines. (CJL)

Agree, big newspapers with good lawyers, where the extra sales generated are worth that hefty "insurance".

Although I don't wish to minimise the annoyance and hurt caused to DJM's investors/customers, in the grand scheme of things this is a small, insignificant company and is probably a very minor job for the firm concerned (from their point of view, obviously not the point of view of a gentleman who's just lost a few hundred quid) to dispose of what they can and wind it up. For our hobby it is novel as the business in question had significant communication on forums in earlier times, and the mechanics of crowdfunding are still relatively new to us, but on a national scale it will barely make a ripple. There are more than a few crowdfunding schemes going this way - Retro Computers Ltd for instance, over half a million quid taken to produce a handheld spectrum and they delivered about a dozen machines in total, running open source emulator software. And they went through a known crowdfunding site with t&cs and everything, had licenses from Sky and involvement with Sir Clive himself.

It isn't that all these firms are crooked or their founders are necessarily incompetent, it's just that almost by definition a firm crowdfunding a project likely hasn't the spare capital or assets to cope with any unforeseen issues that might arise (otherwise they'd be using their resources to develop the project) or it's a project where commercial viability is in question so they're trying to get the money/sales up front.

A full APT set from a one man company already struggling to get models into production ticks both those boxes.

Just because things have gone wrong doesn't mean there has to have been wrongdoing.

[AY Mod]

21 minutes ago, Legend said:

All of them  tend to take a  superficial view with lots of layout articles , reviews and positive news 

 

It must be true, you keep saying it.

 

Did you read the piece I did in BRM a year ago which looked at the positives and negatives of crowdfunding? There was a purpose to doing that.

[Phil Parker]

5 hours ago, Legend said:

 

There will be a mention in the news pages but I can’t see this being majored on in any of the mags. All of them  tend to take a  superficial view with lots of layout articles , reviews and positive news . They are not really set up as consumer magazines and rarely see anything critical in them, see anything about Heljans initial narrow gauge releases and self destructing valve gear for instance?  It does cost money to do investigative journalism . But even if they can’t visit China it would be good to get the point of view of the factory that’s holding CADs or tooling, I believe we know who that is. A phone call may suffice, although legalities need to be observed, and this may mean incurring expense consulting their legal depts .I think this is one of the biggest things that’s happened in model railways in the last 5 years, and probably the biggest loss incurred in the community. It’s a shame we don’t have a mag that’s for the consumer and would pursue  this , but don’t hold your breath!

 

While you are riding this particular hobby horse yet again, remember another in the stable is that you prefer YouTube "reviews" where someone squeals over a box opening to a properly researched and considered magazine review. 

 

Pinning down someone in China on the phone for a chat will be difficult and time consuming. The whole lot will then need a costly legal looking at, model railway mags are much smaller than the national press so that means outside legal people, for what? So someone can read the article in Smith's and then come on here, slag us off for not having printed some spurious rumour as part of the piece?

 

From the behind the scenes gossip, this whole situation is a can of worms far too complicated to unravel quickly. It might provide 2 pages of entertaining popcorn reading, although probably not that entertaining once the lawyers have had a look, for many thousands of pounds of work.

[Neil]

7 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

..... Did you read the piece I did in BRM a year ago ....

 

Well I did, even the bits between the lines too.

[TheQ]

29 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

Well I did, even the bits between the lines too.

Sleepers?  Awe ramps?  Water troughs? 

[Ian Hargrave]

7 hours ago, Legend said:

 

There will be a mention in the news pages but I can’t see this being majored on in any of the mags. All of them  tend to take a  superficial view with lots of layout articles , reviews and positive news . They are not really set up as consumer magazines and rarely see anything critical in them, see anything about Heljans initial narrow gauge releases and self destructing valve gear for instance?  It does cost money to do investigative journalism . But even if they can’t visit China it would be good to get the point of view of the factory that’s holding CADs or tooling, I believe we know who that is. A phone call may suffice, although legalities need to be observed, and this may mean incurring expense consulting their legal depts .I think this is one of the biggest things that’s happened in model railways in the last 5 years, and probably the biggest loss incurred in the community. It’s a shame we don’t have a mag that’s for the consumer and would pursue  this , but don’t hold your breath!

 

Pause for thought and consideration on the matter of “the biggest loss incurred in the community” and “the biggest things.......etc.......in the last five years” .Really ? What then of the colleagues at Market Deeping ?

 

Of course forum members have sustained loss and suffered anxiety.We all understand this and offer support and concern...Phil and Andy on a practical level....but do you really imagine using the opportunity of another canter of your hobby horse will seriously help matters ?  You post here ,as do we all,courtesy of BRM.which is “as eny skoolboy no” ( apologies to Molesworth and Ronald Searle )  a magazine.

 

On a personal level,I do not want “in depth investigative journalism “,true confessions or any other form of spurious navel gazing We’ve been behind the scenes at Hornby and followed Channel 5’s series.Enough for now thank you. You’ve been given valid considered opinion . Does it take the excesses of tabloid journalism to tempt you to read BRM,Model Rail,Railway Modeller etc ? But you won’t I imagine in any case.

 

     What happened last month in Stamford is far more worthy of attention than the travails of Mr.Jones.

 

[RedgateModels]

8 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

 

8 hours ago, AY Mod said:

Did you read the piece I did in BRM a year ago which looked at the positives and negatives of crowdfunding? There was a purpose to doing that.

 

June 2018 for those that haven't seen it. 

[Caledonian]

1 hour ago, TheQ said:

Sleepers?  Awe ramps?  Water troughs? 

 

Nah, its those big bits of plastic for uncoupling tension locks

[Bernard Lamb]

10 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

What about DJM crowdfunders who are not on RMweb?  How will they know to submit a claim?

From my experience the receivers will draw up a list of the creditors.

They will write to each and every one of them inviting claims.

They will do this a) to ensure that they have approached all potential creditors. b) because they get paid to do this and writing several hundred letters adds a big chunk of money to their bill.

They should then circulate a list to all those people involved of exactly who is owed what and how much they will pay out.

At this stage it makes interesting reading as you will see just who is actually involved and for how much.

 

I find it amazing that this thread has generated so much froth.

Companies keel over every day and usually the amount of money involved is rather larger than in this case.

I was offered around 3p in the £ in one case and it took around seven years to wind up the company.

If people get as much as that in this case then I reckon they will be very lucky given what seems to be known about the affairs of this company.

Sad and I am not without sympathy for those involved.

However for better or worse we have a capitalist economy.

Bernard

 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, RedgateModels said:

 

 

June 2018 for those that haven't seen it. 

And coincidentally this thread started at about the same time - and it might also be worth a read by those who haven't seen or followed it.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/133839-crowdfunding-or-minimising-risk/#comments