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Kato announces Class 800 in N


Mike Harvey
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8 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Comparison of  Kato pricing with some other manufacturers is "interesting". Pity that we can't get them to do some more UK-prototype models.

 

Different market, different economics.

 

The UK - N is a smaller portion of the market

Japan - N totally dominates the market

 

Thus with higher sales, easier to cover tooling and other costs.

 

For the 80x, add in that the 80x by selling in both countries will have far greater sales than a UK only 80x.

 

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Are they going to sell that many class 800s to their home market? I'd imaging the bulk would end up in the UK.

There will be economies of scale regarding motors and gears but it does still make you question how they can do it for the price give the RRPs of their UK competition.

 

Do Kato have their own factories?

 

Steven B.

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Just now, Steven B said:

Are they going to sell that many class 800s to their home market? I'd imaging the bulk would end up in the UK.

There will be economies of scale regarding motors and gears but it does still make you question how they can do it for the price give the RRPs of their UK competition.

 

Steven B.

 

Hitachi product, so likely yes.

 

But also an example of why any non-Japanese-company model like say an HST would have far different economics for Kato than the 80x.

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I think that'll remain to be seen. The reason it took Kato 20 years to re-run the Eurostar was the underwhelming sales of the first batch, and that had cross-Europe appeal as well as the 'tourist' market. i get the 800s are a Japanese product, but even so, it's tough to imagine them being huge sellers over there. 

 

I mean, it's great, and really underlines the fact the Farish Voyager re-run is eyewateringly expensive for a 10+ year old model!

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Not that they've announced, but you can join the 5-car sets.

 

I wasn't specifically drawing comparison to the Eurostar, more that Kato have previously over estimated the demand, and been left with a lot of stock. Hopefully that's not the case here, they'll sell well and be encouraged to produce more, particualrly given their penchant for EMUs!

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Can anyone help me with a prototype question-Apologies for raising in the model thread, I did find the 800 thread in the prototype section but it's the thick end of 300 pages long 

 

The Azuma is the 800/2, the five car unit, as opposed to the 800/1 that Kato have not announced which is the 9 car unit?

So

Is a 800/1 just an 800/2 with extra coaches (n terms of what is visible on an N model)- not wishing to divert discussion onto "will there be an add on pack" but have a genuine interest in whether a /2 can be grown into a /1 should that happen

What routes do LNER operate the /2 on. My modelling interest is the Highlands but have only seen pics of 9 car units in Inverness

 

Rob

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6 hours ago, Steven B said:

"Interesting" is one word to describe the pricing:

Farish two car class 170 for £149

Dapol HST + 2x Mk2 for £169

Kato five car class 800 for £178 (all RoS prices)

Dapol five car class 222 for £191

Five Farish Mk2f for £195

Farish six car blue Pullman £299

Farish four car class 220 for £339

 

 

I can only assume Kato are going to make a million of them to keep the unit cost down!

If it runs anything like the Eurostar it'll me mechanically better than anything Farish or Dapol produce too.

 

"Interesting" times ahead!

 

Steven B.

 

My Kato stock runs the best of anything I've ever owned.  I bought a couple of Shinkansen sets, thinking that I'd have a small N Gauge layout alongside my OO Gauge Minories but that plan was soon out of the window and 12 months on, all of my British stock has been sold and I have no less than 30 Japanese-prototype EMU's and loco-hauled sets.  Absolutely no regrets!

 

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The Kato Class 800 IEP looks absolutely astounding. At that price it was so hard to resist. I've pre-ordered an LNER one from RoS. 

 

Now I really wish Kato did more British stuff. With NATO's excellent pricing, they should consider doing other EMUs which are usually a lot more expensive when Dapol and Graham Farish set about doing them (someone else has already given a good price break up). 

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21 hours ago, hsthero said:

The Kato ICE4 uses slide in decoders for dcc so the 800 could be the same. It needs three decoders, one in power car and one in each driving car. I have these decoders which were in a set made by Zimo Model SETMX605N. Very easy to fit. There also coach lighting function only decoders available.

 

2 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:


It is DCC ready... But no clue what type of DCC socket is onboard.

As hsthero noted their usual solution is a drop in board in the powered coach and they do mini function decoders for the driving trailers. 
The diagram on the poster suggests they’ve followed this arrangement as it shows the coach as motorised.
96E87425-DEB1-48A6-83D8-50D4C7BCA4A7.jpeg.9ecf7b3199e6c58e2b39b1ccc9ab7ac7.jpeg

The only thing adding a question to this is Peco have stated the 009 locos they are working on will have a Dcc socket which would be a first for Kato. 
 

The usual head / tail light decoder is the - Kato 29-352 DCC Decoder FL12 (for Head and Tail Light) (N scale) - which is around £12 on eBay etc from Japan but £26 at Gaugemaster so with tax and shipping usually cheaper from somewhere like Plazajapan for two. 
https://www.plazajapan.com/4949727514529/?setCurrencyId=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAh4j-BRCsARIsAGeV12BAFtpYIPV_xDxQeG7OVuM_ap1H6sfx6vyWLd65vRHqiU1U1QSNcVYaAhGaEALw_wcB

 

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59 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

 

As hsthero noted their usual solution is a drop in board in the powered coach and they do mini function decoders for the driving trailers. 
The diagram on the poster suggests they’ve followed this arrangement as it shows the coach as motorised.
96E87425-DEB1-48A6-83D8-50D4C7BCA4A7.jpeg.9ecf7b3199e6c58e2b39b1ccc9ab7ac7.jpeg

The only thing adding a question to this is Peco have stated the 009 locos they are working on will have a Dcc socket which would be a first for Kato. 
 

The usual head / tail light decoder is the - Kato 29-352 DCC Decoder FL12 (for Head and Tail Light) (N scale) - which is around £12 on eBay etc from Japan but £26 at Gaugemaster so with tax and shipping usually cheaper from somewhere like Plazajapan for two. 
https://www.plazajapan.com/4949727514529/?setCurrencyId=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAh4j-BRCsARIsAGeV12BAFtpYIPV_xDxQeG7OVuM_ap1H6sfx6vyWLd65vRHqiU1U1QSNcVYaAhGaEALw_wcB

 

 

All of my Japanese stock provides for slide-in decoders on cab cars and the centre coaches with motors.  I think the ICE models also use this and so would presume it will be the same for the 800's.  See here for an example of fitting:

 

 

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At £178 this is astounding value for a 5 coach train, especially compared to the home teams comparative products! The CAD looks excellent too, as you would expect from KATO. 

If they do a TPE version in the future it'll be very hard to resist! 

 

Tom.  

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Comparing Kato to the ‘home teams’ is a difficult one ;) with their current RhB range some get frustrated with MDS in Germany that they cost more than the Kato options but then get mad when the Noch special editions cost more than the factory ones too. MDS have offered far more liveries, albeit on a smaller range, in the last three years. The fact is Kato don’t produce a great variety or quantity at a time direct so getting the avalanche of options we are used to here doesn’t tend to happen. One new livery a year is the usual so two on launch is quite impressive. It can be a while between batches with little updates as noted above ;) For Kato this is a sideline to their vast Japanese ranges so don’t expect a huge expansion of the range quickly. The Eurostar has been reintroduced recently but there was a gap of about 8 years since the last batch and getting the extension sets was virtually impossible for most of that period. 
 

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18 hours ago, Suffolk Rob said:

Can anyone help me with a prototype question-Apologies for raising in the model thread, I did find the 800 thread in the prototype section but it's the thick end of 300 pages long 

 

The Azuma is the 800/2, the five car unit, as opposed to the 800/1 that Kato have not announced which is the 9 car unit?

So

Is a 800/1 just an 800/2 with extra coaches (n terms of what is visible on an N model)- not wishing to divert discussion onto "will there be an add on pack" but have a genuine interest in whether a /2 can be grown into a /1 should that happen

What routes do LNER operate the /2 on. My modelling interest is the Highlands but have only seen pics of 9 car units in Inverness

 

Rob

Only 9 car sets operate the Highland main line and Aberdeen routes if that helps.

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Hopefully these will fly off the shelves and encourage Kato to produce more modern British outline. 

 

I keep reading that British N gauge is a small market. I can't help thinking it has been made that way by inflationary prices and unpredictable supply. This product will cost less than five low spec unmotorised coaches from Farish. O gauge took off because Dapol produced excellent quality, well-chosen items at an affordable price. If Kato does the same for N it might be the start of a resurgence for British N. 

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1 minute ago, fezza said:

Hopefully these will fly off the shelves and encourage Kato to produce more modern British outline. 

 

I keep reading that British N gauge is a small market. I can't help thinking it has been made that way by inflationary prices and unpredictable supply. This product will cost less than five low spec unmotorised coaches from Farish. O gauge took off because Dapol produced excellent quality, well-chosen items at an affordable price. If Kato does the same for N it might be the start of a resurgence for British N. 

It all depends why Kato chose to produce an N gauge model of a Japanese designed train for the UK market.

 

Is it because it a Japanese designed train or because they believe there is a market in the UK it can tap like the US.  It's one train in two liveries, they had years to do an iconic HST and didn't.  With no indication of what comes next it may be that the best short term route to an 800 derivative would be after market vinyl overlays for the other liveries.

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4 minutes ago, fezza said:

Hopefully these will fly off the shelves and encourage Kato to produce more modern British outline. 

 

I keep reading that British N gauge is a small market.

 

I believe that the export market for Kato is only some 20% of their production, hence why their catalogue is only in Japanese! However, with Hiroshi Kato's visits to the UK, maybe this might change!

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2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

It all depends why Kato chose to produce an N gauge model of a Japanese designed train for the UK market.

 

Is it because it a Japanese designed train or because they believe there is a market in the UK it can tap like the US.  It's one train in two liveries, they had years to do an iconic HST and didn't.  With no indication of what comes next it may be that the best short term route to an 800 derivative would be after market vinyl overlays for the other liveries.

 

Respectfully Sir, you overlook their collaboration with Peco on, for example, Double Fairlie 0-4-4-0. "David Lloyd George".

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11 minutes ago, fezza said:

Hopefully these will fly off the shelves and encourage Kato to produce more modern British outline. 

 

I keep reading that British N gauge is a small market. I can't help thinking it has been made that way by inflationary prices and unpredictable supply. This product will cost less than five low spec unmotorised coaches from Farish. O gauge took off because Dapol produced excellent quality, well-chosen items at an affordable price. If Kato does the same for N it might be the start of a resurgence for British N. 

I wouldn’t get too excited, people thought that with the RhB range and even though it sells extremely well with most items selling out fairly fast and commanding high prices on eBay they don’t pile out more. That range has been going since 2012 or 13 and we have 2 locos, one unit and four types of coach so far, plus most of the livery variations and one extra coach from Noch and Pirata commissions. The Eurostar elicited similar thoughts but was all they did for a long time and that was only reissued 3 or 4 years ago now.

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9 minutes ago, BokStein said:

 

Respectfully Sir, you overlook their collaboration with Peco on, for example, Double Fairlie 0-4-4-0. "David Lloyd George".

The England 0-4-0 is due first in 21, 22 for the Fairlie, and that’s a cooperative venture with Peco who are providing the rolling stock so it’s not likely to be a big range direct from Kato. 

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