Kato announces Class 800 in N

[njee20]

Their latest TGVs have 6-pin sockets, so I'd not rule out "proper" DCC compatibility, but their proprietary boards are better than nothing I guess. 

[woodenhead]

17 minutes ago, BokStein said:

 

Respectfully Sir, you overlook their collaboration with Peco on, for example, Double Fairlie 0-4-4-0. "David Lloyd George".

Peco also did a 2251 Collett - it kickstarted DCC in UK N gauge, their previous loco was the Jubilee some 30 years earlier.

 

It would be good if Kato made a bigger investment in the UK market, but a collaboration with Peco doesn't mean entry into mass market but providing support to a niche model - Bachmann are also investing in 009 and Heljan had a dabble.

[MGR Hooper!]

18 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Their latest TGVs have 6-pin sockets, so I'd not rule out "proper" DCC compatibility, but their proprietary boards are better than nothing I guess. 

Agreed, it is Kato at the end of the day, I doubt they're a company that would take short cuts when it came to such things. 

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hello all,

 

I am really looking forward to these, and like some others here I really hope Kato can be convinced to offer the stylish TPE versions too; I am not really sure how different the 800s are to the 802s - to me they look pretty identical.

 

In terms of pricing, it is probably helpful to add some context:  Japan has a population of 126m and N is by far the dominant scale.  I have heard estimates that there are as many as 7 million regular N gauge modellers.  If we consider the British N gauge market to be between 25,000 and 50,000 then even at the generous end, and allowing for 5 million in Japan, there are 100 Japanese customers for every Brit.

 

In addition, from what I have been told by Mr Kato and others, Japanese modellers are very brand-loyal (both prototype and model) and, not surprisingly perhaps given Japan's rail history, very interested in fast, modern 'Shinkansen' type trains; often mixing railway companies and eras.  I was surprised to learn - from Kato - that they sold far more Eurostars in Japan than they ever sold in Europe.  It is also documented that sales of their Glacier Express models are split 50:50 between Europe and Japan. 

 

I have also been told that the minimum first production run for any single Kato line is 10,000 units.  To put this in context:  Revolution/Rapido have so far produced barely 1200 Pendolino models, and even Farish tend to produce first-run models in quantities of significantly less than half Kato's numbers.

 

There are huge savings to be made if you're shifting models in bulk:  If it costs £100k to tool a new model, and £50 to assemble, paint and pack each one, then if you are selling 1000 then the unit cost, just to break even, is £150.   Add shipping, manufacturer margin, retailer margin and VAT and that means an MSRP of about £400. 

 

If you are producing 10,000 of the exactly the same model the unit cost would be just £60, and adding the same shipping, margins and VAT gives and MSRP of £160.

 

I am thrilled that Kato are producing these models, and looking forward to hopefully acquiring at least one.  I am sure, given Kato's pedigree, that it will be fabulous.  Even after nearly 25 years my cherished, original Kato Eurostar - the model that first sparked my interest in railway modelling - is one of my best running, detailed and finished models.

 

But to compare the Class 800 pricing structure with models produced exclusively for the British market is disingenuous IMO.  I do not believe that any UK manufacturers are over-charging us; they are just dealing with the practical realities of making a profit in a small but very demanding market.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

 

 

 

[TomE]

1 minute ago, Ben A said:

But to compare the Class 800 pricing structure with models produced exclusively for the British market is disingenuous IMO.  I do not believe that any UK manufacturers are over-charging us; they are just dealing with the practical realities of making a profit in a small but very demanding market.

 

Certainly wasn't my intention to be disingenuous, it was more a note of wonder at how they could do it at that price point, however if a KATO production run is a minimum of 10,000 units then there is the answer! 

 

Tom.  

[PaulRhB]

Very informative post thanks Ben, being able to put some meaningful figures to the info I’ve also heard in conversations from several in the trade  over time. 
It’s very easy in the internet cauldron to just focus on the end price not the reasons for it. 

[Mike Harvey]

Just on the DCC compatibility it is worth noting that the most recent TGVs have had six pin NEM651 DCC sockets. See page 4 of the attachment. Kato do not mention the DCC capability, just referring to it in the instructions as a way to isolate the lights on the power cars when two sets work in multiple.

https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/kato-model/schedule/pdf/202009241821385f6c652214b4c/thalys_pba.pdf

Edited November 28, 2020 by Mike Harvey
updated link

[BokStein]

4 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

Agreed, it is Kato at the end of the day, I doubt they're a company that would take short cuts when it came to such things. 

 

2 hours ago, Mike Harvey said:

Just on the DCC compatibility it is worth noting that the most recent TGVs have had six pin NEM651 DCC sockets. See page 4 of the attachment. Kato do not mention the DCC capability, just referring to it in the instructions as a way to isolate the lights on the power cars when two sets work in multiple.

https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/kato-model/schedule/pdf/202009241821385f6c652214b4c/thalys_pba.pdf

 

The motor is in one of the middle coaches so the Kato / Zimo set of three decoders WILL be required; one specifically for the motor with two to control the head and tail lights. You could, of course, bodge an installation of an alternative decoder if you wish!

 

https://www.osbornsmodels.com/k10950-d1-kato--n-gauge-ice4-3-piece-decoder-set-47623-p.asp

 

IIRC, the TGV units were originally produced without DCC sockets and ESU produced a replacement circuit board with a 6 pin socket. When Lemke started to control the TGV models, they supplied them with the ESU board and a blanking plate. The motor was in one of the driving coaches.

 

The 800 models are being produced in Japan to the same arrangements as their bullet trains as were the ICE4 units which arrived in the last year.

Edited November 28, 2020 by BokStein

[Mike Harvey]

1 hour ago, BokStein said:

 

IIRC, the TGV units were originally produced without DCC sockets and ESU produced a replacement circuit board with a 6 pin socket. When Lemke started to control the TGV models, they supplied them with the ESU board and a blanking plate. The motor was in one of the driving coaches.

 

The 800 models are being produced in Japan to the same arrangements as their bullet trains as were the ICE4 units which arrived in the last year.

The last 3 or 4 TGVs have not been Lemke products AFAIK. Mine have all been Kato branded. I'll be interested to see what Kato choose for the digital interface. From what you say, it looks like we are going along the bespoke route, rather than more open-source DCC.

[njee20]

Seems a bit of a shame; but time will tell!

[BokStein]

38 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

The last 3 or 4 TGVs have not been Lemke products AFAIK. Mine have all been Kato branded. I'll be interested to see what Kato choose for the digital interface. From what you say, it looks like we are going along the bespoke route, rather than more open-source DCC.

 

As you can see from the train formation diagrams with the set information, the motor is NOT in an end coach, so the bespoke 3 decoder set is required.

 

Regarding previous TGVs, if they had a 10-xxxx part number, they were more likely Japanese format; if the were 10916, for example, they were Lemke modified with the ESU circuit boards.

[PaulRhB]

7 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Seems a bit of a shame; but time will tell!

I’d wait and see as we don’t know which yet, socket or board, the only official info is the DCC friendly. 

[njee20]

11 minutes ago, BokStein said:

 

As you can see from the train formation diagrams with the set information, the motor is NOT in an end coach, so the bespoke 3 decoder set is required.

 

Regarding previous TGVs, if they had a 10-xxxx part number, they were more likely Japanese format; if the were 10916, for example, they were Lemke modified with the ESU circuit boards.

That’s a leap - plenty of models have a motor not in an end coach and still make use of standard decoder sockets - Dapol Voyagers, Farish 350s. You could well be right, but I don’t think you can draw that conclusion purely based on motor location. 

[BokStein]

3 minutes ago, njee20 said:

That’s a leap - plenty of models have a motor not in an end coach and still make use of standard decoder sockets - Dapol Voyagers, Farish 350s. You could well be right, but I don’t think you can draw that conclusion purely based on motor location. 

 

Order one and find out!

[njee20]

As I’ve said, It’ll become clear in the fullness of time, ordering 1 or 10 won’t make a difference. But right now we don’t know, so saying vehemently it’ll be x is pointless; you don’t know. Are you ordering the three part decoders in advance?

[ash39]

Looking forward to picking up a couple of these, an important model for anyone modelling the next 30 years for sure.

 

My only worry is if they are doing a production run of 10,000 units per livery, they will take a while to find homes which might put Kato off further production runs. It would be difficult to run a realistic GWML or ECML layout without the 9-car variants. Hopefully the TPE & Hull Trains versions will follow too.

[RichardT]

Given in and pre-ordered an LNER set.  Just to check - I can run this alongside my new Farish Thompson coaches can’t I, as they’re both LNER?

 

 

 

Joking.  Ultimate rule 1 purchase for my 1940s ECML layout - but also to encourage Kato to stick with British outline N.  They do have a very good N 2-8–2 steam chassis in their range *cough* Gresley P2 *cough*
 

Richard

[BokStein]

13 hours ago, njee20 said:

Are you ordering the three part decoders in advance?

 

I already have!

[njee20]

Fair enough! Given it's their first ever 1:148 model and various other firsts, I'd not be so quick to rush, but I admire your assuredness!

[mdvle]

On 28/11/2020 at 06:26, fezza said:

Hopefully these will fly off the shelves and encourage Kato to produce more modern British outline. 

 

I keep reading that British N gauge is a small market. I can't help thinking it has been made that way by inflationary prices and unpredictable supply. This product will cost less than five low spec unmotorised coaches from Farish. O gauge took off because Dapol produced excellent quality, well-chosen items at an affordable price. If Kato does the same for N it might be the start of a resurgence for British N. 

 

I think that is a bit misleading.

 

RTR O took off because Heljan, year after year, built the market by continuing to release additional models expanding the range of product.

 

Not to knock Dapol, and I understand that many will much prefer their prices, but their O range so far is very limited unless you are a GWR modeller, and even that while nice isn't extensive.

 

As for N, yes the Bachmann/Farrish supply problems have been a factor - but far more likely a bigger factor is simply the way OO has expanded in the last 5 years with new manufacturers and so much product coming out that it simply entices people in a way that N cannot even if Farish didn't run into it's current troubles.  (the growth of O will also be a factor).

 

 

[mdvle]

On 28/11/2020 at 16:58, ash39 said:

My only worry is if they are doing a production run of 10,000 units per livery, they will take a while to find homes

 

Just a guess, but I expect Kato is expecting to sell 95% of what they produce to Japanese buyers - anything sold in the UK market is merely going to be a "nice to have" extra.

 

On 28/11/2020 at 16:58, ash39 said:

which might put Kato off further production runs. It would be difficult to run a realistic GWML or ECML layout without the 9-car variants. Hopefully the TPE & Hull Trains versions will follow too.

 

Another guess, you won't see additional runs anytime soon - the Japanese collectors who want a model of what Hitachi has made for the UK market will be happy with what is offered in the first run - and with the UK market being so small Kato won't do a new run just for the UK market.

[mdvle]

I would like to thank Ben for posting and putting some actual numbers to what I said earlier in this thread - that the Japanese market is unlike any other N scale market in the world, and thus trying to compare prices just doesn't work.

 

But I think it should also serve as some advice to temper some of the hopes that several in this topic have been posting - Kato isn't about to suddenly start offering a bunch of UK prototype models because there is no market for most of it in Japan.

 

And without those Japanese buyers, Kato can't sell enough product to meet their product run minimums.

 

So enjoy your Class 80x units if you buy them, as they should be wonderful models, but be realistic when the other stuff that doesn't benefit from 9,000+ sales in Japan get announced with a British-only market price.

[fezza]

One thing to bear in mind is that educated Japanese people tend to have a great interest in European life and culture. It wouldn't be a surprise if Kato thought they could shift at least some British outline in Japan. In general British modellers seem very insular with only a very small minority building 'continental' layouts. That's not necessarily the case elsewhere. 

 

On the point about Dapol and 0, all I will say is that there are far more people prepared to pay £200 for a locomotive than £450. I don't think there is much doubt that the pricing shift had a big impact on modellers taking up 0. 

[Steadfast]

On 28/11/2020 at 14:29, Mike Harvey said:

Just on the DCC compatibility it is worth noting that the most recent TGVs have had six pin NEM651 DCC sockets. See page 4 of the attachment. Kato do not mention the DCC capability, just referring to it in the instructions as a way to isolate the lights on the power cars when two sets work in multiple.

https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/kato-model/schedule/pdf/202009241821385f6c652214b4c/thalys_pba.pdf

Just quoting this as it links to the PDF for the TGV set.

I've just ran the Kato class 800 page through Google translate, apparently the 800 will have a switch to turn off the lights on a non exposed cab end.

" Head and tail lights are lit (with a light-off switch), and white LEDs are used. When the head is lit, the indicator lights are lit at both the top and bottom "

I take the indicator bit to mean that headlights and marker lights are illuminated together.

https://www.katomodels.com/product/n/class800

 

Jo

Edited November 30, 2020 by Steadfast

[RichardT]

4 hours ago, fezza said:

One thing to bear in mind is that educated Japanese people tend to have a great interest in European life and culture. It wouldn't be a surprise if Kato thought they could shift at least some British outline in Japan.

Anecdotal evidence only, but when my NRM colleagues were in negotiations with JR West over how we could make their generous offer to donate a Shinkansen into a reality, it was clear that a lot of Japanese people are very interested in UK railways.  The first loco in Japan being, of course, British and the first railway British financed and engineered.  So I would also be cautiously optimistic.

 

Best, Richard

Edited November 30, 2020 by RichardT
Style.