Jump to content

Hattons Dave

'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

Recommended Posts

The full brakes will be excellent; some in S. R. green will be useful in my planned 1930s Southern layout.

 

But no Stroudly LBSC livery to go with the early Terriers?

  • Friendly/supportive 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
4 minutes ago, jamespetts said:

The full brakes will be excellent; some in S. R. green will be useful in my planned 1930s Southern layout.

 

But no Stroudly LBSC livery to go with the early Terriers?

Just announced they are adding those to the second batch.

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now I'm starting to think the lack of LBSCR livery announcement was just for fun to get everyone speculating, have we all just been trolled? :p 

  • Funny 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Joseph the L&YR lover said:

Just announced they are adding those to the second batch.

 

No, that is the Marsh umber, not the Stroudly teak livery. They are quite different: the Marsh livery is a 20th century livery.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, jamespetts said:

No, that is the Marsh umber, not the Stroudly teak livery. They are quite different: the Marsh livery is a 20th century livery.

Didn't see the livery they were going to be in. my mistake.

  • Friendly/supportive 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, jamespetts said:

No, that is the Marsh umber, not the Stroudly teak livery. They are quite different: the Marsh livery is a 20th century livery.

 

The listing says "umber", the all-over brown livery from 1911, not the more attractive umber with white upper panels used from 1903-1911, which could go with locomotives in either the Stroudley livery perpetuated by Billinton and the umber livery introduced by Marsh in 1905.

  • Agree 2
  • Informative/Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

There again, if someone decides to do a Metropolitan Railway condensing tank engine, the Cambrian did buy some of those after they were sold off!

That would be a good choice for Hatton's next steam loco, a good companion for these coaches. They got about a bit, almost as much as Terriers.

  • Like 2
  • Agree 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

 

The Cambrian Railway built some bogie tri-composites of their own specifically to work through coaches to Euston, Liverpool and Manchester, some of the few coaches that the GWR kept on grouping.  They ran to both Aberystwyth and up the coast. They were non corridor but lavatory equipped.  Obviously being bogie they are not particularly relevant to this thread but there is a retouched early photo of one in CC Green's "Cambrian Railways Album" which shows one in Euston, and a photo of one in Barmouth.  Interestingly the bogie tri-composites were built in 1898, a year before the last six-wheel coaches were built by the Cambrian which might explain how the six wheelers managed to hang on into the early 1930s on the Cambrian lines.

Personally I'd love some Cambrian six wheelers but the chances of us getting an RTR Sharp Stewart Furness/Cambrian 4-4-0 to haul them with are slim to Buckley's I suspect.  There again, if someone decides to do a Metropolitan Railway condensing tank engine, the Cambrian did buy some of those after they were sold off!

 

The Cambrian fairly soon added corridor tri-composites to work through coaches; the GWR thought well enough of them that some lasted into the 1950s in regular service. They did often run 6-wheel full brakes with their bogie coaches. But the classic Cambrian main line trains in the late Victorian era were of 6-wheel coaches, and these continued well after the bogie coaches appeared. Some would appear on services to South Wales via the Mid Wales line.

 

A mixed traffic Cambrian 0-6-0 to pull them isn't a far-out idea; the Jones Goods made it to 1954, and Aston and Queen classes to 1947.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 06/11/2019 at 02:01, Hattons Dave said:

Hi guys,

 

Project Genesis is now one month into production and we’re pleased to see so many people inspired by our new coaches.

 

Your feedback has aided the design of the coaches, from our initial designs that were shown on the launch day. We have iterated through 5 evolving designs to reach a stage where we are happy that we have addressed all of the feedback received and are confident the product will be the most realistic coach we can make.

 

These 2D drawings will now be turned into 3D CAD files that will show all of the details which we are putting into these coaches. This will take a couple of months but we will keep you informed as the project continues to develop.

 

Full Brake Coaches

One of the most requested features was the addition of Full Brake coaches to the range and we are very happy to reveal that these types of coaches are now available to pre-order, HERE.

 

Full Brakes were popular during the time these coaches ran, as many passengers carried copious amounts of luggage when they travelled. Also, some goods could be transported on passenger trains if they were needed in a hurry, for example - newspapers or milk, so most trains would have had a full brake. As the vehicles were replaced in passenger service, the full brakes got a new lease of life with the engineers of the railway companies as tool or storage vans. This helped a lot of them to survive far longer than the passenger coaches, with one even lasting in service until the 1980s!


LB&SCR Liveried Coaches

Finally, one livery not included in the initial plan has been requested more than any, LB&SCR. This has also now been added and can be pre-ordered HERE, to run with the new Hornby Terrier or any of the other great LB&SCR locos available. These will be available as part of Batch 2.

https://bit.ly/2NHK4kL

 

For more information about the full range of Genesis coaches and to pre-order, click HERE

 

Cheers,

Dave

Hello Dave

 

Are you considering 4-wheel full brakes also? 

 

Cheers

 

Andy.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 05/11/2019 at 16:46, Compound2632 said:

@Hattons Dave, have you widened the quarter-lights? Not possible to tell from the passenger brake vans!

 

Hello Compound2632,

 

We certainly have, they've been adjusted as you previously suggested.

 

11 hours ago, Ventnor said:

Hello Dave

 

Are you considering 4-wheel full brakes also? 

 

Cheers

 

Andy.

 

Hi Andy,

 

We're not looking at 4-wheel full brakes for the time being, just the 6-wheelers for now.

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

  • Like 2
  • Informative/Useful 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Nile said:

That would be a good choice for Hatton's next steam loco, a good companion for these coaches. They got about a bit, almost as much as Terriers.

 

As an Underground nut, I'll second that. If they could cater for detail variations, that's about five main line railway companies, five commuter railways and I don't know how many light railways and industrial lines catered for. And think of the coach liveries they could produce to go with those...

Edited by HonestTom
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎05‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 18:07, gr.king said:

Why are the prices for the "all one colour, unlined" liveries the same as the "two-colours plus contrasting upper beading and fine lining all round" versions which must be more expensive to produce?

 

On ‎06‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 05:10, PaulRhB said:

Hattons didn’t add extra for the P classes in ornate liveries over black so I guess their production process either adds minimal labour time for the subsequent colour prints or they have decided to spread the costs over the whole production to balance the prices. 

 

As one who is only likely, at best, to want a plain finish, I'm not at all impressed by proposals to charge the same prices for those as for the elaborately decorated versions.

 

I don't believe that the additional stages of livery application for "two colour panelled plus lining" can possibly have negligible cost, and I don't wish to subsidise those processes for others.

  • Like 1
  • Funny 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

 

Hello Compound2632,

 

We certainly have, they've been adjusted as you previously suggested.

 

 

Hi Andy,

 

We're not looking at 4-wheel full brakes for the time being, just the 6-wheelers for now.

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

 

Am I right in thinking the 6-wheelers are designed so that the centre wheels can be pulled-out, thereby creating an instant 4-wheeler?

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, RichardLong said:

 

Am I right in thinking the 6-wheelers are designed so that the centre wheels can be pulled-out, thereby creating an instant 4-wheeler?

The LNWR did that with some of their early 26ft six wheel straight sided milk vans. It was never done with any of the later 32' or 30' 1" six wheelers.  The LNWR four wheel coaches were 28', perhaps the higher weight of the longer coaches might not have been regarded as suitable for four wheel underframes.

 

Pre-group companies seemed to limit long wheelbase two axle vehicles to specialist wagons such as machinery trucks. Perhaps they didn't think that 20ft or 22ft wheelbase suited "passenger" vehicles.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, gr.king said:

 

 

As one who is only likely, at best, to want a plain finish, I'm not at all impressed by proposals to charge the same prices for those as for the elaborately decorated versions.

 

I don't believe that the additional stages of livery application for "two colour panelled plus lining" can possibly have negligible cost, and I don't wish to subsidise those processes for others.

 

At only £30 pounds it's hardly a massive subsidy/loading being thrust upon you,

but there is nobody making you buy these, you can just walk away!

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 18

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, HonestTom said:

 

As an Underground nut, I'll second that. If they could cater for detail variations, that's about five main line railway companies, five commuter railways and I don't know how many light railways and industrial lines catered for. And think of the liveries they could produce to go with those...

Not to neglect the fact that there were the original Spanish ones and some later German ones!

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Informative/Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gr.king said:

 

 

As one who is only likely, at best, to want a plain finish, I'm not at all impressed by proposals to charge the same prices for those as for the elaborately decorated versions.

 

I don't believe that the additional stages of livery application for "two colour panelled plus lining" can possibly have negligible cost, and I don't wish to subsidise those processes for others.

Have you checked what else you can get for £30 in RTR these days? These would be a bargain unpainted!

  • Like 5
  • Agree 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gr.king said:

 

 

I don't believe that the additional stages of livery application for "two colour panelled plus lining" can possibly have negligible cost, and I don't wish to subsidise those processes for others.

Simple don’t buy them then.

just take all the other liveries out of the equation and ask yourself would I buy it at that price if it was the only livery on offer? 

 

In reality I t’s all tied up in production economies. Hattons aren’t necessarily making that call it could be their factory quoting on the batch, they aren’t going to release that info. If Hattons, or their producer, need the common price to make the whole batch work then it’s not about subsidy by you on others it’s about a business plan to make the whole economic. 

Thats a reality of kit production too, you have to look at the best way to maximise sales overall. Offering without wheels etc sometimes means a bigger cost on the wheels for those that do take them pushing those over a psychological boundary and cutting the units sold making the rest of the batch uneconomic. 

Without knowing the intricacies of their plan it’s impossible to say what the additional cost is, whether you believe it or not. I know from being involved in kit production and friends who produce mass products that actual cost and profit margin vary enormously at times to make a product range work.  

  • Like 4
  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The LNWR did that with some of their early 26ft six wheel straight sided milk vans. It was never done with any of the later 32' or 30' 1" six wheelers.  The LNWR four wheel coaches were 28', perhaps the higher weight of the longer coaches might not have been regarded as suitable for four wheel underframes.

 

Pre-group companies seemed to limit long wheelbase two axle vehicles to specialist wagons such as machinery trucks. Perhaps they didn't think that 20ft or 22ft wheelbase suited "passenger" vehicles.

They often replaced the Maunsel wheels with stronger steel wheels when removing the centre axle. Something to bear in mind when removing the centre axle on the model six wheelers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just been having another shufti through my Railways of Beckenham book (well I would, coz it's local, innit?) and there is this wonderful picture on page 139 of a 4-wheel 3-compartment brake third. It looks just like the Hatton's 4-wheel brake coach as far as the passenger accommodation is concerned, but there is no ducket for the guard, and -- wait for it -- a birdcage on the roof. It is close-coupled to a coach, the first compartment of which has a big 2 on the door.

 

[The book is Andrew Hajducki, The Railways of Beckenham, The Ardgour Press in association with Noodle Books, 2011, ISBN 9781906419592.]

Edited by Budgie
Tpyo
  • Like 1
  • Informative/Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, gr.king said:

 

 

 

 

I don't believe that the additional stages of livery application for "two colour panelled plus lining" can possibly have negligible cost, and I don't wish to subsidise those processes for others.

 

But you are only getting your model because it is being done for them.

 

Craig w

  • Like 2
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Budgie said:

I've just been having another shufti through my Railways of Beckenham book (well I would, coz it's local, innit?) and there is this wonderful picture on page 139 of a 4-wheel 3-compartment brake third. It looks just like the Hatton's 4-wheel brake coach as far as the passenger accommodation is concerned, but there is no ducket for the guard, and -- wait for it -- a birdcage on the roof. It is close-coupled to a coach, the first compartment of which has a big 2 on the door.

When is the photo dated, please?

Edited by truffy
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, gr.king said:

As one who is only likely, at best, to want a plain finish, I'm not at all impressed by proposals to charge the same prices for those as for the elaborately decorated versions.

 

I don't believe that the additional stages of livery application for "two colour panelled plus lining" can possibly have negligible cost, and I don't wish to subsidise those processes for others.

 

What a ridiculous thing to say.

 

It's likely to be a couple of pence difference, if that. Same amount of research, same amount of designing, same amount of development, same amount of machining time and physical raw material, same amount of packaging (design, manufacturing, materials), same amount of publicity costs, same amount of man hours overall, same quality control, same shipping from China (or wherever)... same amount of actual paint, just divided over an extra couple of passes over different parts. In a batch production environment, this will most certainly be negligible as a proportion.

 

Tell you what; suggest to Hattons that if they work out the actual price difference, you'll pay whatever percentage the "plain" one costs (I'd estimate £29.99 in the case of a £30 one), plus the time/wage of the person who has to dig up what that difference in cost will be. It'll be a few hours for them to find it all out, plus a few phone calls here and there, so you'll be looking at around £40 worth of work, plus the £29.99. So as long you buy more than 4,000 of them you'll be on a winner there!

Edited by Dragonfly
"overally" isn't a word (but it is a good one)
  • Like 4
  • Agree 2
  • Informative/Useful 1
  • Funny 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Dragonfly said:

It's likely to be a couple of pence difference, if that

 

From my experience of quotes given that is far from the mark. The more complex liveries will require far more work than that of the basic 'brown' coach and if ordered seperately would be a significantly higher cost.

 

I get the feeling that Hattons have chosen a price point to work to, it has nothing to do with the amount of work on the liveries, but more to do with the amount that UK modellers wish to pay. All costs have likely been amortised over the entire range to keep within this price point.

 

 

  • Like 2
  • Agree 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s probably more to do with marketing , a simple price point for all. The actual cost of these will be substantially less than the selling price , obviously for Hattons to make a profit .So I suspect there’s enough bandwidth in the margin to accommodate complex liveries  and it’s probably already built in

  • Like 1
  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.