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phil gollin

Hornby 2020 range "reveal date" = 6th Jan

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I'll close this topic off before the embargo time.

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Posted (edited)

As previously mentioned, if you could get PECO onboard for the track then that would spread the investment.  As for a launch range, I would go with something like the above and sell it in sets/train packs initially.  This would hopefully mean greater Initial volumes.  Also, include a Motorail wagon so Corgi/OD could produce TT model cars.

 

Why not include 12 months membership of the 3mm Society with each set sold so you instantly feel part of a community.  Buildings could initially be something like the block with stickers that Graham Farish (pre-Bachmann) used to sell.  Whilst not great, they would be effective in this scale, be fun to make, be included in train sets and relatively low cost.

 

For me it would be important that there is a roadmap showing plans for the next 3-5 years and then Hornby must deliver against it.  If momentum can be established then I am sure other manufacturers and retailers would get onboard and expand the scale.


Edit: and to be clear, I would almost certainly switch from N gauge to TT.

 

It certainly is an exciting idea but as has been previously stated, high risk.

 

Kind regards

 

Paddy

 

Edited by Paddy
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I think the main danger for Hornby is the risk that they alienate their existing customers, eg, by not providing new models that they want, because they are diverting resources (not just financial) into the "new" idea - whatever that is. 

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I suppose one of the selling points would be that for the first time it would be possible to buy British outline R-T-R with a true scale to gauge relationship, if they went for 14.2mm. I'd absolutely be all over it but sadly can't see it ever happening.
 

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On 30/12/2019 at 13:35, wombatofludham said:

Once again, I ask why would Hornby - a business - throw away tens of thousands of pounds tooling up a new range of starter locos when the existing fat Pug and Holden-ish locos more than satisfy the market they are aimed at?  They are aimed at the starter market, not high end collectors, they are simple, robust and probably cheap to make.  They sell.  They are appealing. They can put up with a lot of abuse.  The chassis can cope with Radius 1 curves laid on carpet, which isn't guaranteed for a smaller wheelbase with finnicky modern motors.  Above all, they bring in loads of money which can be re-used to fund the more critically designed models for adults where fidelity is more important.  For a children's starter set, sold in supermarkets to parents or grandparents wanting a brand name they can trust, the Bagnall shunter, Holden and fat Pug in pretty colours ticks all the boxes.  And earns Hornby a decent mark up on a bundle of stuff that has cost a few pounds to manufacture but which can retail at a lot more.  

Just because the trainset locos are compromised, or look "crap" to adult modellers, doesn't mean Hornby should be using scarce investment funds to replace them unless the moulds and chassis are life expired.  Which of you would be willing to give up on the dreams of your own pet wishlist items to free up investment to create replacements for the Holden and Pug to satisfy the real market that frankly isn't demanding they be replaced?  Don't all shout at once...

 

Having talked to Doris (she does the fruit & veg) over at Tesco Westwood, she's let me know about the latest 'must have'. It's an entirely new scale, about half-way between 00, and o gauge. The new scale is to be called OT scale. There is one proviso, however, you can only have one genre within the hobby. So, if you like L&NER stuff, you can only buy L&NER stuff. That's what happens if you go OT. 

 

The first new model is, apparently, a new release of that well-renowned locomotive, Flying Scotsman, painted dayglo orange. To encourage the younger people to take up the hobby, it'll be clockwork powered. 

 

Sounds like a wind-up to me...... 

 

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2 hours ago, MM1991 said:

A Jinty, Black 5, 20, 37, 12t vans, 16t mins, 13t open, BR brake van, air braked vaa/vba/oba and mk1's,  set track curves, straights and points, with flexi-track following on I think would be the minimum range launch - ideally to the 3mm society scale of 101.6 with 14.2 mm gauge.  That way people could make use of 3mm society products to expand quicker rather than relying on Hornby adding more products

Trouble with 14.2 is that it's the 3mm equivalent of P4 and requires larger curves than OO,

 

No locos there to interest me and it 's academic in my case anyway, I'm far too heavily committed to OO and my age would be in three figures before any range of TT locos got into two.

 

John

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Posted (edited)

And this is part of the problem with TT where 12mm or 14.2mm are the current popular options but the happy medium (EM equivalent) of 13.5mm is very rare and such a choice might preclude existing 3mm modellers from fully supporting the range. RTR TT is fraught with difficult choices. I think they'd more likely adopt 12mm even though it's even more of an anachronism than OO.

Edited by Anglian

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Posted (edited)

With regards to the teaser trailer, it will be related to that virtual reality thing he was looking at in the James May documentary.

Edited by MonsalDan
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2 minutes ago, Anglian said:

And this is part of the problem with TT where 12mm or 14.2mm are the current popular options but the happy medium (EM equivalent) of 13.5mm is very rare and such a choice might preclude existing 3mm modellers from fully supporting the range. RTR TT is fraught with difficult choices. I think they'd more likely adopt 12mm even though it's even more of an anachronism than OO.

IMHO, any announcement by Hornby of a return to 3mm scale (irrespective of gauge) would amount to a suicide note.  TT3 is, in scale terms, an even greater nonsense than OO and 3mm fine scale (14.2mm) would offer no space advantage over their existing OO products. 

 

Whatever combination they chose would alienate as many existing TT users as it pleased and, in any case, I think many of them would prefer it to remain a "modellers' scale".

 

I don't consider that Hornby would be wise, in their current position, to diversify into other scales/gauges than OO, but if they were to do so, they'd best choose something with an established single set of standards. That rules out TT more comprehensively than almost any other.

 

John

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5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

2. All that pales into insignificance alongside the really big issue, which is "What is TT?" The old Tri-ang stuff was TT3, 3mm scale (1:100) on 12mm gauge, so was even less accurate than OO! Neither Hornby or anyone else would get away with that today. Continental TT uses the same gauge but 2.5mm to the foot scale (1:120). So, do you keep 1:100 scale and change the gauge to 13.5mm or thereabouts which loses most of any space advantage over OO or go the continental route, which offers relatively little increase (+25% linear over N) to the size of individual models?

 

If anyone, individual or as a group, decided to try and do RTR TT then the best option would be to go with the existing larger market continental version.

 

This makes TT more attractive by making more mechanisms available for kitbashing (3D printed items!) as well as providing additional sales potential for any prototypes that have managed to cross the channel - say Classes 66, 86, 58, Eurostars, etc and for some of the other stuff you may even get the occasional EU modeller purchase for a train "in transit" from the EU based factory to either the EU based testing facilities or to the UK.

 

And while it may seem a small difference from N, it doesn't take much necessarily to make things like DCC, sound that much easier while still offering a layout size advantage over OO.

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On 27/12/2019 at 14:58, The Johnster said:

The company we know as Hornby is genetically Rovex/Triang, and Hornby Dublo ceased to exist along with the rest of Frank Hornby's Meccano empire many years ago in the late 60s.  Hornby 0 gauge had already disappeared by that time, and some of the Hornby Dublo products continued in production under the Wrenn banner.  

 

Triang had bought the rights to the Hornby name and rebranded itself as Triang Hornby, then after a while dropped the Triang, as the Hornby name had more market presence than Triang, despite no ex-Hornby Dublo products being available in the 'Hornby' range.  Wrenn went out of business in 2015, and some ex Hornby Dublo wagon toolings are still being produced by Dapol.  

 

Hornby, the trading name, was a very sensible acquisition for Triang Railways, enabling them to dispose of the competition (Wrenn were, arguably, servicing a different market and in any case became part of the Triang empire eventually) and identify with what was then and still is the default household name for model railways in the UK.  

It's genetically Rovex, but the current range owes much less to that heritage than it did 25 years ago, and features tooling developed in China, acquired from Dapol (ex-Airfix) and Lima as well as Margate tooling sent to China. On a factual point, the Triang name was dropped because after the Triang (Lines Brothers) group went into administration in 1971, the administrators sold the Triang tradename to another buyer with part of the nursery toy range and so Dunbee-Combex-Marx did not have the right to it when they acquired Rovex although they did get the Hornby trademark. Wrenn had been acquired by the Lines Brothers group in 1967 but used the administration to buy themselves out again, they essentially carried on the Hornby-Dublo range until 1992 when the original firm closed down. The name and tooling passed through Dapol (who still own and use a number of the original H-D plastic wagon body tools) - the Wrenn company that was wound up in 2015 was a successor company set up to manage the spares, history and some limited wagon releases rather than a full scale manufacturing outlet.

 

At this distance I think the current Hornby company have earned the right to the spirit of the original company as well as the name. The market they serve these days is very similar to the classic 1930s Hornby firm which at one end made models that competed with the scale offerings but was always more family oriented than the 'serious' suppliers and always endeavoured to market a complete system. 

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Interestingly this year although the frothfest started surprisingly early I have noticed a decided lack of real froth. A lot of off topic and history but not much froth.

Have we lost interest?

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Posted (edited)

Theres an odd but easy possibility all the speculation has missed..

forget VR, AR or TT... they could just move to making HO... no need to change track, most high st customers wouldnt notice and UK modellers would be dragged kicking and screaming into the same gauge as the rest of the world... best of all the 0-4-0 could continue as is..

though in HO it would be a “Honey I shrunk the trains” moment.

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, rovex said:

Interestingly this year although the frothfest started surprisingly early I have noticed a decided lack of real froth. A lot of off topic and history but not much froth.

Have we lost interest?


go on then...

Ivor the engine


Ruston Morden United Dairies, with a new tooled milk tank would be nice.

Signal box sounds / Station announcer sounds.

 

Edited by adb968008
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24 minutes ago, rovex said:

Interestingly this year although the frothfest started surprisingly early I have noticed a decided lack of real froth. A lot of off topic and history but not much froth.

Have we lost interest?

 

The newer competitors of the last several years are much better at the social media game and generating interest, leaving the established players falling behind.

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1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

IMHO, any announcement by Hornby of a return to 3mm scale (irrespective of gauge) would amount to a suicide note.  TT3 is, in scale terms, an even greater nonsense than OO and 3mm fine scale (14.2mm) would offer no space advantage over their existing OO products. 

 

Whatever combination they chose would alienate as many existing TT users as it pleased and, in any case, I think many of them would prefer it to remain a "modellers' scale".

 

I don't consider that Hornby would be wise, in their current position, to diversify into other scales/gauges than OO, but if they were to do so, they'd best choose something with an established single set of standards. That rules out TT more comprehensively than almost any other.

 

John

Having modelled in 3mm scale, I can't fathom your logic that 3mm offers no space saving over 4mm scale. Everything is 25% smaller. 3mm or TT is in many ways the perfect scale. Academic though. I can't see Hornby diversifying, at least while they are working to strengthen their existing business.

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3 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

Having modelled in 3mm scale, I can't fathom your logic that 3mm offers no space saving over 4mm scale. Everything is 25% smaller. 3mm or TT is in many ways the perfect scale. Academic though. I can't see Hornby diversifying, at least while they are working to strengthen their existing business.

 

I think the argument is based on the fact that if true scale track gauge of 14.2mm is chosen, then the curves cannot be sharp (as they are in OO), so you lose the compact nature of an oval layout. 

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Interesting that this has appeared in the ads on the page:

 

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1164250/Model_Builder/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz8qi-ozm5gIV1hIbCh3nogrUEAEYASAAEgIyBfD_BwE

 

I’m somewhat struggling to see the point of pretending to paint, model, glue etc...

 

What would be out of the box, would be an accessible software tool that allowed you to build models that could be 3D printed and painted by the manufacturer. Perhaps take a base model, pick the details you want, get it printed/produced for delivery to you.  More like the way you order a new car with higher levels of consumer customisation.  However, I can’t see that working with the extended supply chain. 

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52 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Theres an odd but easy possibility all the speculation has missed..

forget VR, AR or TT... they could just move to making HO... no need to change track, most high st customers wouldnt notice and UK modellers would be dragged kicking and screaming into the same gauge as the rest of the world... best of all the 0-4-0 could continue as is..

though in HO it would be a “Honey I shrunk the trains” moment.

 

 

That’s a good idea. I could stop buying stuff which I can’t resist and use the time I spend sticking bits on, or back on, or trying to get things repaired and just enjoy the stuff I already have. In amongst it all is an HO Warship diesel, bought out of curiosity and very cheaply. The picture should show why any manufacturer who produces British H0 will go down the tubes leaving the rest to clean up.

00 H0.jpg

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9 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

One way or another, most (if not all) of that is already available from established providers of rail simulation software.

 

John 

 

And there are ways of interfacing both 'train sim' and 'signalling sim' into a working layout - I've done the first (albeit only at an experimental stage so far) and hope to have the second working later this year!

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The big news this year will not only celebrate 100 years if Hornby model trains, but will usher in a new era of sustainable model railways.

Hornby fully intend to play its part in the Green Revolution.


No longer can model train makers justify producing models in eco-unfriendly, polluting, oil base plastics and unrecyclable, poisonous metals, using high energy dependent manufacturing processes.

 

Hornby will be leading the way by producing its new 2020 range in sustainable materials, including Scandinavian wood, woven flax and Vegan friendly products.

A new wooden track range will be available to match, produced from renewable northern hemishere forests and not from the decimation of tropical rain forests.

Hornby have also developed a new green energy source to power and control this new revolutionary range of model trains.

Named to reflect the Russian heritage of its designer, Hornby have branded this control system as PushTek .

Pushtek controlled trains require no electricity and produce zero CO2 emissions in use.

 

Two new train sets will also be released to coincide with and commemorate this bold new move into a Hornby sustainable, new future; 

the Greta Green freight train set and the Thunderberg Express.

 

 

 

You heard it first, here on RMweb.

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2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I

 

I don't consider that Hornby would be wise, in their current position, to diversify into other scales/gauges than OO, but if they were to do so, they'd best choose something with an established single set of standards. That rules out TT more comprehensively than almost any other.

 

John

Most of Hornby's European lines are HO scale.  Arnold is of course N.  Remember that Hornby internationally is much bigger than the English market.

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18 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

the Thunderberg Express.

 

Keeping thing festive; that describes me making the traditional boxing day morning dash.

 

P

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Denbridge said:

Having modelled in 3mm scale, I can't fathom your logic that 3mm offers no space saving over 4mm scale. Everything is 25% smaller. 3mm or TT is in many ways the perfect scale. Academic though. I can't see Hornby diversifying, at least while they are working to strengthen their existing business.

TT3 does what you say and, when TT is mentioned, most of us in the UK think of it.  However, (re)launching model trains into today's market with a scale/gauge discrepancy even worse than much-maligned OO is just not credible.

 

The clearances involved in finescale TT at 14.2mm gauge are much smaller, somewhat akin to those in P4, which means that, unless you exclude running outside cylinder steam-outline locos, it should require minimum radii of (interpolating from P4 requirements) something in the region of 3' 6".

 

OK trains are going to be shorter and those running only diesels/electrics or small steam locos don't have the same issues, but otherwise, as with P4, overall layout size/area increases unless one is willing to limit oneself to a straight terminus-to-fiddle yard arrangement. Any roundy-round or L/U-shaped terminus -FY set up will need the bigger curves.

 

It sounds counterintuitive, but Hornby's thing is big, green, named steam locos so such limitations wouldn't be acceptable and a layout to run them on in 3mm/14.2 would need more room than a comparable one in 4mm/16.5. 

 

I agree that Hornby are currently in no position to risk so drastic a diversification from their established business so, as you say, it's academic. That said, given the upturn in the fortunes of OO9, maybe better commercial opportunities for 12mm gauge might lie in 3' N/g to 4mm scale....and, they could sell it as a adjunct to OO rather than competing with themselves.

 

John

   

Edited by Dunsignalling
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6 hours ago, autocoach said:

Most of Hornby's European lines are HO scale.  Arnold is of course N.  Remember that Hornby internationally is much bigger than the English market.

Arguably true, but Hornby's international acquisitions mainly arose from those businesses becoming unsustainable individually. Are they, therefore, part of the solution, or part of the problem for Hornby?

 

In any case, this thread is really concerned with speculating/fantasizing over what Hornby might announce on Monday for the UK market.

 

John

 

 

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