AMJ Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 Looking at some of the older catalogue covers they seem to have items on them as art rather than future/current items. An example was the 1975 cover with an EB Wilson Jenny Lind on it. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted December 25, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 25, 2020 20 hours ago, brushman47544 said: I would agree that Simon Kohler /Hornby are interested in ‘Modern image’, just that for them it means something closer to the current scene. The BR blue era seems to pass them by. As it does for many modellers, as an example the toy/model shops near here in Weymouth, Dorchester and Bridport are not bad for basics and have a wide range of kits across multi-genres but in the r-t-r railway section rarely stock diesels/electrics being steam only. If the demand was there I guess they would have them in stock. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted December 25, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 25, 2020 On 24/12/2020 at 12:27, brushman47544 said: I would agree that Simon Kohler /Hornby are interested in ‘Modern image’, just that for them it means something closer to the current scene. The BR blue era seems to pass them by. Given that it immediately succeeded the age of steam, I'd question whether the BR blue era can any longer be truly described as "modern". John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold D9020 Nimbus Posted December 25, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 25, 2020 It can't, really, but Cyril Freezer's coining of the term — when it really was modern image — seems to have stayed with us. Seems to cause difficulties for those who really are modelling "modern image". Doesn't seem to have an equivalent in other countries, as far as I can tell. Bachmann's "era" system — modelled on that used in continental Europe (especially Germany) though with different numbers — doesn't seem to have caught on with the general modelling public. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 (edited) The Bachmann era system hasn't caught on because it is wholly inadequate for the British scene, where, for instance, on say the LNER, there were striking differences between the periods 1923-9, 1930-41, 1941-46, and 46/47. Regarding these four periods as one era is a hopeless over-simplification that would tend to invite the uninformed, if treating the era system as gospel, to depict things in a very unrealistic and quite impossible way. The other three big groups had distinct changes of flavour over the course of time too, maybe not too obviously on the GWR, but certainly on the LMS and to some extent on the Southern. Edited December 25, 2020 by gr.king Inserted missing word 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffy Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 On 18/12/2020 at 19:39, adb968008 said: What trick is missed is modern image has a future. Whilst a class 195 today has two liveries, comes in 2 car, 3 car or EMU.. that market I admit maybe smaller than a 2MT... but it will be here for 40 more years, a good tooling wont be challenged, and if UK, rail history has a future there will be new liveries at least every 5 years, and specials, which means a steady stream of business for 5 decades. Just look at the 156.. at least 20 liveries.. and its still only mid-life... i’d wager Hornbys had more out of the single car 153 than the J50. But, even though steam hasn't been mainstream since I was a mere baby, it's still what children think of when they think of a locomotive, watch Thomas, go to a heritage railway etc. Steam 'lives', it has presence and passion. People may travel on modern trains out of necessity, but does it imbue the same passion? I think kettles will continue to sell for a long while more, while the more modern stuff is the niche of aficionados. I might be wrong, it happens, but both H and B seem to consider that there's a future for steam models. 6 hours ago, gr.king said: The Bachmann era system hasn't caught on because it is wholly inadequate for the British scene, where, for instance, on say the LNER, there were striking differences between the periods 1923-9, 1930-41, 1941-46, and 46/47. Regarding these four periods as one era is a hopeless over-simplification that would tend to invite the uninformed, if treating the era system as gospel, to depict things in a very unrealistic and quite impossible way. The other three big groups had distinct changes of flavour over the course of time too, maybe not too obviously on the GWR, but certainly on the LMS and to some extent on the Southern. The problem with any categorisation system is how broad/narrow you set the thresholds. Broader gives fewer pigeon holes, but some leeway within them, narrower gives greater finesse but also complexity. Overall, I think B's attempt is pragmatic, those seeking greater finesse are probably more likely, and better suited, to fill in the blanks. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted December 26, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 26, 2020 (edited) Rather than an era system, why not just put the years on the box... ie period : 1959-1967. There is afterall only one “1976” (ignoring 1976 BC which would be a more stone age style of modelling). People will make their own choices on date ranges anyway. I find it interesting reading above, of eras of “periods 1923-9, 1930-41, 1941-46, and 46/47” yet 1968-2020 is considered ok to be 1 era. You could apply an argument that 1964-68, 68-71,72-79,80-82,83-84,85-87,88-94,94-97,97-00,01-03,04-09,10-13,14-17,18-20 are all different “modern” eras, given the wide changes in withdrawals, new liveries and new fleets introduced... afterall anyone modelling after Dec 2020 wouldnt include a Pacer, yet its the same era as Kestrel, the first HST, a HST named Hayabusa (Kestrel in Japanese) and the IEP that replaced all that history. Edited December 26, 2020 by adb968008 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 Confusingly, Hornby also have an era system, but the numbers/eras appear to be different! But I absolutely agree that it would be much simpler to just say e.g. 1925-1941 or whatever the period was, primarily for two reasons: 1) It's more easily understood, especially for those new to the hobby or buying a present for someone else. 2) Locos and liveries often overlapped eras. For example, not all Big Four locos were painted into BR colours on New Year's Day 1948. Some GWR locos (and not all in obscure locations!) kept their company lettering into the 1960s and I daresay the same happened on other regions as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted December 26, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 26, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, truffy said: The problem with any categorisation system is how broad/narrow you set the thresholds. Broader gives fewer pigeon holes, but some leeway within them, narrower gives greater finesse but also complexity. Overall, I think B's attempt is pragmatic, those seeking greater finesse are probably more likely, and better suited, to fill in the blanks. I've always thought that the best attempt at dating models was the one Airfix/GMR used, listing the date the prototype or livery first appeared with a "+" acknowledging that withdrawals or repainting generally happened over protracted timescales. e.g. BR "early/late crest" on locos where there were some locos still running with the former after some others with the latter had been withdrawn. Given that inserting a model that is too "new" is the easiest anachronism to commit, it solved many problems, whilst encouraging potential users to investigate further if they thought it necessary/were that bothered. Post-privatisation should, in theory, be easier territory for "eras" but, in practice, two factors make it perhaps even more of a minefield. [1] Units were/are generally reliveried over a few months rather than several years. [2] TOC franchises changed hands at different times, creating differing overlaps with others. For some periods, that makes modelling an area/period where two TOCs operated tricky and one where there were three or more to be seen, almost impossible without getting something wrong. My "thing" is BR Southern Region (ex-LSWR, not electrified) with the period set at 1957-62, and accept there are bound to be minor infractions! However, the big problem is Bulleid Light Pacifics, which were all rebuilt during that time. I therefore invented a Rule 0, which trumps Rule1, and states that I don't acquire any models of locos that got rebuilt in non-rebuilt condition. That neatly sidesteps the most "nonsensical" combinations that could arise. Thus, Hornby's "Exeter" or "Camelford" are "off-side", where "Bideford" is OK. I haven't yet got any air-smoothed MNs, but I'm planning to pick examples that stayed that way to at least the second half of 1958 and avoid having those locos in rebuilt condition. John Edited December 26, 2020 by Dunsignalling 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomScrut Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 10 hours ago, adb968008 said: yet 1968-2020 is considered ok to be 1 era. Or in some cases, and TBH I aren't sure who uses what system, but obviously present day is era 11 in some people's book, which is fine by me it covers about 6 years IIRC. I think that the system that stops at 9, where anything post privatisation is all the same era is daft. The only things I can think of post privatisation that are near as dammit the same now is some EWS stuff that will either have been debranded or had a DB label slapped on it. I don't even think there will be much on the network (relatively speaking) in the same state as it was in 2010. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomScrut Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said: without getting something wrong Yes, my example is that I base by stock on present day around York. In all likelihood I'll end up compromising on a couple of technicalities. Northern DMUs, I'll either end up branded and debranded together or not in quite the correct time. I'm also getting a RT 156 which 156s aren't common in York AFAIK, most of the work seems to be 150s, 155s, 158s, 170s and 195s. Also I will end up compromising now I have decided to order a Hornby 91, as 91118 is withdrawn but is correct livery wise for present day. I am thinking I need to set my date to 2020 anyway or have more compromise going forwards as if NR/Colas are thinking about more HST power cars on test trains then my 37s may be going out of relevance soon in real life! I'd rather have my 37s than be looking at present day! Edited December 26, 2020 by TomScrut Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 I didn't used to worry too much about the stock I bought. It was mainly 'if I like it' or 'it's similar to what I remember (but remembering and what was reality may or may not be vaguely similar)' or 'oooh looky looky nicey nicey'. What it has meant is that I could run any period between say 1930 to 2019 (in limited numbers). However, having lurked on here for a while AND finding that finances are more limited, I confess to have become more discerning in what I buy - trouble is - do I stick to 'kettles' or do I go more modern as I really like block train workings of today (some would consider 'boring!' as very samey). Hornby (or any manufacturer) really have to ensure that whatever they offer, must be pretty much perfect to make me part with my cash - acceptable level of detail, correct outline, 21-pin chips and lighting where applicable. My two pennorth, Cheers, Philip 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 Whereas - I'm the other way around. I'm not too bothered about high levels of detail or lighting (and definitely not about DCC) and cost is more likely to determine whether or not I buy something. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiftyfour fiftyfour Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 2 hours ago, TomScrut said: Yes, my example is that I base by stock on present day around York. In all likelihood I'll end up compromising on a couple of technicalities. Northern DMUs, I'll either end up branded and debranded together or not in quite the correct time. I'm also getting a RT 156 which 156s aren't common in York AFAIK, most of the work seems to be 150s, 155s, 158s, 170s and 195s. Also I will end up compromising now I have decided to order a Hornby 91, as 91118 is withdrawn but is correct livery wise for present day. I am thinking I need to set my date to 2020 anyway or have more compromise going forwards as if NR/Colas are thinking about more HST power cars on test trains then my 37s may be going out of relevance soon in real life! I'd rather have my 37s than be looking at present day! If you are going to constantly keep up with the scene right now then you've got more money to spend than most people on the hobby! Since this time last year alone ALL your Pacers, any Arriva branded Northern stuff and most Stagecoach-group livery East Midlands Railway vehicles have all become redundant and even if you took delivery of a full whack set of LNER Mk4's and a pair of 91's (LNER and "For the fallen") they would also be on a one-way trip to the fiddle yard before long... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomScrut Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 (edited) 38 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said: If you are going to constantly keep up with the scene right now then you've got more money to spend than most people on the hobby! Since this time last year alone ALL your Pacers, any Arriva branded Northern stuff and most Stagecoach-group livery East Midlands Railway vehicles have all become redundant and even if you took delivery of a full whack set of LNER Mk4's and a pair of 91's (LNER and "For the fallen") they would also be on a one-way trip to the fiddle yard before long... I have only been back in the hobby a year or so, so not much has changed. As I said though the branding on a Northern DMU is a compromise I am willing to make. At the moment as the stuff I have I have bought over the last year and so is all current or almost current I have the luxury of not being committed to anything. I can either try and maintain being current or freeze in 2020. I am leaning towards the latter as there is quite a bit of stuff I quite like going out of the equation, including the 91 and Pacers, without anything coming in that I know about that will be wanting me to keep at it. I do expect though a lot of people pick a period of a few years and as long as it's within that period it doesn't really matter? It is also worthy noting most things have a fairly decent residual value if they are recent models, so keeping the ball rolling by selling "obsolete" stock to be replaced by other current stock probably isn't more expensive than amassing loads of stuff from the same period in history, which is what I thought most people do. Edited December 26, 2020 by TomScrut Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiftyfour fiftyfour Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 4 minutes ago, TomScrut said: I have only been back in the hobby a year or so, so not much has changed. As I said though the branding on a Northern DMU is a compromise I am willing to make. At the moment as the stuff I have I have bought over the last year and so is all current or almost current I have the luxury of not being committed to anything. I can either try and maintain being current or freeze in 2020. I am leaning towards the latter as there is quite a bit of stuff I quite like going out of the equation, including the 91 and Pacers, without anything coming in that I know about that will be wanting me to keep at it. I do expect though a lot of people pick a period of a few years and as long as it's within that period it doesn't really matter? It is also worthy noting most things have a fairly decent residual value if they are recent models, so keeping the ball rolling by selling "obsolete" stock to be replaced by other current stock probably isn't more expensive than amassing loads of stuff from the same period in history, which is what I thought most people do. Your posting implied that if they didn't all actually operate through York on June 17th 2020 between 1418 and 1635 then anything else is a compromise! I model across a 20 year time frame leading to bizarre scenes such as peaks and banger blue spoons on blue/grey stock passing early privatised era livery kit, but that is nothing "scope creep" wise when compared to some earlier in this thread who were ordering Rocket, APT and the Floyd Class 56 as soon as they were announced! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomScrut Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 1 minute ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said: Your posting implied that if they didn't all actually operate through York on June 17th 2020 between 1418 and 1635 then anything else is a compromise! I model across a 20 year time frame leading to bizarre scenes such as peaks and banger blue spoons on blue/grey stock passing early privatised era livery kit, but that is nothing "scope creep" wise when compared to some earlier in this thread who were ordering Rocket, APT and the Floyd Class 56 as soon as they were announced! Yeah I wasn't suggesting it was down to a particular day, but everything I have bar 1 loco and a rake of wagons are in the same livery as they are in real life today other than some subtleties (some of which are smaller than what manufacturers screw up anyway). Oddly enough I use "rule 1" as a method of limiting what I buy by setting the rules based on if it is current (or almost current) or not. If not I'd end up with a mish mash of all sorts that would despite liking things in isolation would end up annoying me seeing it all together! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted December 26, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 26, 2020 15 hours ago, adb968008 said: (ignoring 1976 BC which would be a more stone age style of modelling). I think you'll find you mean Bronze Age... The era system is well intentioned but any system which imposes distinct cut off points or boundaries will lead to anomalies. It has some use in establishing very basic period concepts to beginners, but is inadequate for anything more than that. When Cyril Freezer coined the term 'Modern Image' he meant the new stock that was at that time replacing steam and which tended to be painted Rail Blue, but that was actually quite a short period, the decade 1966-76 really, after which livery changes rendered it obsolete. A better term would IMHO be 'Current Image' or 'Current Scene' to describe models depicting what it says on this particular box. I would condense the eras numerically as 1, 1830-1890 (Armagh disaster 1889 results in automatic brakes, and we have 'modern' block and interlocking established), 2, 1890-1923 'pre-grouping', 3, 1923-1948 big four, 4, 1948-68 BR steam and green diesel, 5,1968-90 British Rail mulit-livery, 6. 1990-present Privatised and Current. Period 1 can be more or less discounted for general RTR modelling purposes, despite there being Rockets and Adlers avaialable, as very few RTR modellers build layouts to that period (this may change in future as the small prototypes with wheelbases suitable for no.1 curves are highly conducive to modelling in modern living spaces; we may say a Hornby Jenny Lind yet!). I would expect 'my' period 2 to increase in popularity as well. as my generation dies off and nobody remembers BR steam, in truth a somewhat depressing period. Pre-grouping is typifed by 0-6-0s and 4-4-0s with inside cylinders and a good variety of liveries, many of which can be sold as period 3 and 4 as well, and this is already an established feature of RTR. Smaller loco release headshunts and turntables feed into limited space modelling as well. More new modellers are going to make this choice if they have already chosen to model steam, as they will have no memory association to BR, and the locos and liveries are highly attractive. The period arguably represents 'peak railway' in the UK. But the main thrust is always now going to be Current Scene for the newer generation of modellers. The idea that Rail Blue is modern image when it was half a century ago is just plain daft; it's period modelling. Privatisation was 30 years ago nearly, which is cutting edge modern to this old codger... I model a railway period I almost remember, 1948-58 (I was 6 years old in 1958), in an environment, the South Wales Valleys, which I remember pretty well; coal was still king, the forestry plantaions had yet to cover mountainsides bared by felling for pit props, and the background noise to everything, so pervasive that you only noticed it when it stopped, was the clanking of the spoil bucket cable cars going up the mountain to tip the stuff. Terraced cottages were unmodernised and heated year round by coal fires which doubled as ovens and hotplates for permanently boiling kettles, and some of my rellys had gas lighting in the early 60s. The older cottages didn't even have inside running water taps, you got it from a communal standpipe tap at the end of the street in a bucket. Great aunt Nell said she would die before having a toilet inside the cottage, filthy idea, and she did. For a 50s/60s middle class Cardiff child, visiting these people was like taking a day trip to the 1920s, and I rather liked it! From a railway perspective I chose my time frame because of the livery variations and the general semi-dereliction, which I enjoy modelling, but that long gone generation of rellys from Tonypandy and Wattstown with their flat irons warming on the grate and their permanently singing kettles and zinc baths played a major part as well. 7 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Popular Post adb968008 Posted December 28, 2020 RMweb Gold Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2020 (edited) On 26/12/2020 at 16:48, The Johnster said: I think you'll find you mean Bronze Age... Strictly speaking model railways ages are Dark age pre1920 Tin age 1920-40’s Zinc age 1940-60’s Unbreakable age 1970-80’s Cheap age 1980-94 Detail Age 1994-1999 Intricate Age 2000-current Oxidisation Age 2007-2012 Expensive Age 2015-current Old Age Spans all eras. everything else is just paint on a moulded shape. Edited December 28, 2020 by adb968008 1 1 6 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted December 28, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 28, 2020 9 hours ago, adb968008 said: Strictly speaking model railways ages are Dark age pre1920 Tin age 1920-40’s Zinc age 1940-60’s Unbreakable age 1970-80’s Cheap age 1980-94 Detail Age 1994-1999 Intricate Age 2000-current Oxidisation Age 2007-2012 Expensive Age 2015-current Old Age Spans all eras. everything else is just paint on a moulded shape. I think I posted something similar in the 2021 hopes thread. But did also simplify it to two groups. 1. Great Western. 2. Everything else. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron3820 Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 How can we be in the expensive age when (adjusting for inflation) models of English trains have never been cheaper for what you actually get? If you want something to blame then look at how little wages have increased in recent years to match the rising costs of living. Don’t forget, this is only a hobby. No one is being forced to pay anything. 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRDBLUE17 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 On 28/12/2020 at 22:05, newbryford said: I think I posted something similar in the 2021 hopes thread. But did also simplify it to two groups. 1. Great Western. 2. Everything else. Sounds like a good idea Mick, another positive aspect of your 2 tier system will be to prevent posts such as “nothing in it for me” and “that’s a bit expensive” as within everything else there will surely be something and a price point for everyone. Now back to Hornby - how about either white roof intercity mk1’s or the Pilkington Glass set. Cheers Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 3, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, MRDBLUE17 said: Sounds like a good idea Mick, another positive aspect of your 2 tier system will be to prevent posts such as “nothing in it for me” and “that’s a bit expensive” as within everything else there will surely be something and a price point for everyone. Now back to Hornby - how about either white roof intercity mk1’s or the Pilkington Glass set. Cheers Mark They dont have a brake for the white roof mk1’s. A rake of intercity (dark roof) mk1’s would be nice, the Bachmann ones are painful to find, as side of the BSK. Edited January 3, 2021 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted April 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 6, 2021 On 22/10/2020 at 13:06, Compound2632 said: That way lies many a pitfall. Specifically an inspection pitfall... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Fair Oak Junction Posted November 23, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 23, 2023 (edited) Had an email this morning from Hattons saying the R3862 Lord Nelson "Sir Martin Frobisher" in Malachite has been pushed back again (April/May 2024 now). I'm having serious doubts that it is ever going to see the light of day. I really hope I'm wrong as I'm going to need one or two for my planned layout. Edited November 23, 2023 by Fair Oak Junction Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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