Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[Mr_Tilt]

1 hour ago, The Ghost of IKB said:

Must have been difficult to see signals when driving in that mode...

 

That's what the C-APT system was for.............. 

[boxbrownie]

6 hours ago, The Ghost of IKB said:

Must have been difficult to see signals when driving in that mode...

Concorde droop snoop landing mode……..coming into the station 

[guarded]

36 years later-still the Boss!!

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, guarded said:

36 years later-still the Boss!!

Presumably today’s effort failed then?

[Bucoops]

37 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Presumably today’s effort failed then?

 

By 21 seconds...

[PaulRhB]

Record attempt

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57511346

 

[The Ghost of IKB]

Ironic that a train cast aside and branded a failure should hold the record for so long....and continue to do so.

Who would have bet on that in 1985?

[boxbrownie]

15 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

By 21 seconds...

I bet they were spitting nails…….but at least they had a go, even if it was for “travel by rail” publicity. 

[letterspider]

It just goes to show, you can only succeed in these sort of attempts if you go at it 'full tilt'

[No Decorum]

Mr. Tilt is entitled to feel smug. The Pendolino is a good train although its designed maximum speed is 140 m.p.h.; 15 slower than the APT’s designed maximum. However, it only runs at a maximum of 125. Why? Because after the WCML was renewed there wasn’t enough money to upgrade the signalling. It makes one wonder at all the money being spent on HS2.

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, No Decorum said:

Mr. Tilt is entitled to feel smug. The Pendolino is a good train although its designed maximum speed is 140 m.p.h.; 15 slower than the APT’s designed maximum. However, it only runs at a maximum of 125. Why? Because after the WCML was renewed there wasn’t enough money to upgrade the signalling. It makes one wonder at all the money being spent on HS2.

I wonder if the acceleration of the Pendolino is greater or less than the APT……I would have thought greater with today’s electric drive motor technology?

[GordonC]

30 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

I wonder if the acceleration of the Pendolino is greater or less than the APT……I would have thought greater with today’s electric drive motor technology?

 

I think the APT for the record run was short-formed though, but not sure of how many coaches and presumably 2 power cars. The Pendolino was a standard 9 coach set

[No Decorum]

7 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

I wonder if the acceleration of the Pendolino is greater or less than the APT……I would have thought greater with today’s electric drive motor technology?

I fancy the adhesion of the Pendolino is better because of the motored wheels along the train.

[Pete the Elaner]

18 hours ago, No Decorum said:

Mr. Tilt is entitled to feel smug. The Pendolino is a good train although its designed maximum speed is 140 m.p.h.; 15 slower than the APT’s designed maximum. However, it only runs at a maximum of 125. Why? Because after the WCML was renewed there wasn’t enough money to upgrade the signalling. It makes one wonder at all the money being spent on HS2.

 

How worthwhile would it have been to upgrade the signalling to allow 125mph running? The WCMLs problem is that there are too many trains running at different speeds.

Some parts of the WCML don't have slow lines & even where there are 4 tracks, 125mph services don't have exclusive access to it.

I frequently used to catch a semi-fast back from Euston to Milton Keynes. Not many fast services stopped there in the peak period because they could fill them with passengers going further. The slow lines were crowded with freights & stopping services, so the semi-fast used the fast lines as far as Ledburn Junction, which is immediately south of Leighton Buzzard.

By the time the train had left Leighton Buzzard (which was its first stop), 2 Pendolinos had usually whizzed past.

 

So what benefit could have been gained by raising the line speed to 140mph?

The semi-fast would still need to use the fast lines otherwise it would get caught up with the much slower freights & stoppers.

The Pendolinos would catch up with the semi-fast more quickly & run on double yellows.

 

This is the whole point HS2 is being built. It allows the fast services to bypass the others completely.

[woodenhead]

Here's an interesting article on ERTMS and why it is not ready for use on a railway like the WCML.

 

It was always more than just cost that stopped the WCML being upgraded to a 140 mph railway.

 

https://www.railengineer.co.uk/digital-delusion-a-lesson-from-not-so-long-ago/

[boxbrownie]

10 hours ago, No Decorum said:

I fancy the adhesion of the Pendolino is better because of the motored wheels along the train.

Indeed, and of course modern braking is advanced a lot, I just wondered about the actual accel rates……pretty sure the deccel (braking) would need far shorter distances.

 

After all it’s the time at full speed which is the major determining factor in overall journey time.

[Mr_Tilt]

On 18/06/2021 at 08:50, The Ghost of IKB said:

Ironic that a train cast aside and branded a failure should hold the record for so long....and continue to do so.

Who would have bet on that in 1985?

 

And APT-E still holds the UK non-electrified rail speed record at 152.3 mph. 

 

And that goes back to 1975 too. 

[Mr_Tilt]

As for the attempt on the Northbound P-Train's record, it's not actually comparing apples with apples.

 

The signalling has been improved since then, and many curves have been eased too, but P-Train was allowed up to 140 mph IIRC, whereas the 390s are stuck with 125 mph max.

 

I have no doubt that they'll do it one day, and so they should after all this time, but it's nice to think that we got it pretty well right back then. 

[St. Simon]

8 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Here's an interesting article on ERTMS and why it is not ready for use on a railway like the WCML.

 

It was always more than just cost that stopped the WCML being upgraded to a 140 mph railway.

 

https://www.railengineer.co.uk/digital-delusion-a-lesson-from-not-so-long-ago/

Hi,

 

***Off Topic***

 

That article talks about ETCS Level 3 not being ready yet, which is true, but a 140mph WCML is totally possible with ETCS Level 2 (without Signals), which is more than proven. In ETCS (or any in-cab signalling system), the line speed is governed purely by track conditions rather than signal spacing (because there aren’t any signals).

 

You don’t need Level 3 moving block for running at above 125mph, Level 3 is about squeezing more capacity out of the railway which is prevented by fixed block, and reducing maintenance costs of train detection.

 

Simon

[woodenhead]

But a large part of the argument is the segregation of trains - the WCML has many many points where other lines intersect with it and with it comes the complexity of meshing two systems - hence a quiet line in Wales for the first in service test of the systems and it's introduction in the central part of CrossRail where it is one train type.

 

Perhaps we should be thankful it wasn't possible at the time, HS2 was born out of a lack of capacity on the WCML, had they made inroads into that with ETCS then the case for HS2 would have been weakened.  HS2 exists because a 140 mph with extra capacity WCML was not possible.

[spacecake]

Of course post pandemic puts a new question mark over HS2 IMO. The best case prediction for the railway as a whole seems to be an 80% return of passengers from pre pandemic numbers. Hence the government already talking about maintaining a reduced service and redundancies. Begs the question with a long term reduction of passenger numbers and less services contesting the WCML do we need HS2? Will it serve enough passengers to make it worthwhile? And what will the impact of its competition for passengers to the WCML have on WCML passengers numbers and services?

[Colin_McLeod]

Where does the 80% figure come from?

[Pete the Elaner]

22 hours ago, Mr_Tilt said:

 

And APT-E still holds the UK non-electrified rail speed record at 152.3 mph. 

 

And that goes back to 1975 too. 

 

Hallelujah! 

[Pete the Elaner]

20 hours ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

***Off Topic***

 

That article talks about ETCS Level 3 not being ready yet, which is true, but a 140mph WCML is totally possible with ETCS Level 2 (without Signals), which is more than proven. In ETCS (or any in-cab signalling system), the line speed is governed purely by track conditions rather than signal spacing (because there aren’t any signals).

 

You don’t need Level 3 moving block for running at above 125mph, Level 3 is about squeezing more capacity out of the railway which is prevented by fixed block, and reducing maintenance costs of train detection.

 

Simon

 

140mph may be technically possible but how much use would it really be?

The WCML is not 4 track all the way & even where it is, the expresses have to share the fast lines with semi-fast services which now run at 110mph & need the fast lines to bypass freights & stopping services. If these used the slow lines, they would not be semi-fast. Virgin trains tried to get exclusive access to the fast lines, but this was refused.

Careful timetabling is required to allow Pendolinos & Voyagers to run at 125mph before they catch up with other services. If they ran any faster, they would catch other services more quickly & get stuck on double yellows. The amount of opportunities to genuinely make up time with 140mph running would be very limited...but maintenance costs would still be a lot higher.

[montyburns56]

Hugh Searle has posted some great pictures of an APT passing through Crewe in 1985 on Flickr but for some reason it seems to have had a really ratty looking Power Car 49005 in the formation!!