Hornby W1 Hush Hush

[Steamport Southport]

10 minutes ago, maico said:

 

The flats around the cab window do look to have higher reflectance than the tender. Also the tender sides look matt not satin or gloss used elsewhere.

 

I think it was polished when it went to the park. The photographs of it on display show it to be very glossy.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

If you cant trust colour pictures, it goes without saying you cant trust black and white.

 

its been pointed out the original source is on file. I’m sure those at the NRM, Darlington etc would be ecstatic to work on this model with Hornby so any resources available could be researched.

 

So barring any hiccup in China, or the emergence  of a 130 year old Doncaster Apprentice   holding a dried out tin of paint marked Hush..and with a precious 1930’s colour film taken over several months from all angles and all weathers ... everything we say is uninformed speculation by comparison.

 

Why its painted grey is lost to history, only thought I had could maybe related to heat resistance/dissipation ? But history continues until modern precedent.. Deltic was Blue, Lion was white and Falcon was lime and Kestrel was Brown/Mustard.

Of course even 2 years ago, Azuma 800001 was in a prototype Hitachi  livery.

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by adb968008

[maico]

This set of photos shows the Loveless W1 http://www.loveless.co.uk/gauge1/index.html

 

 

It's a completely different colour to RAL 7016 anthracite grey Hornby have selected and beloved by modern Architects shown bellow in satin in the shade and gloss in bright sunshine
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by maico

[truffy]

10 minutes ago, maico said:

This set of photos shows the Loveless W1 http://www.loveless.co.uk/gauge1/index.html

 

It's a completely different colour to RAL 7016 anthracite grey Hornby have selected and beloved by modern Architects shown bellow in satin and gloss

 

I don't know why people keep bringing up the Loveless model as being the de facto standard. It's just as likely to be right/wrong as any other.

 

@Islesy has already stated that RAL7016 was selected following additional research, including input from W. Brown.

 

I'm happy to accept that as being just as likely to be correct as some, and more likely than others. Personally, I think that RAL7016 could offer greater contrast with the boiler bands than some lighter hues, and will really look the biz!

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by truffy
unscrambling

[maico]

22 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

I don't know why people keep bringing up the Loveless model as being the de facto standard. It's just as likely to be right/wrong as any other.

 

@Islesy has already stated that RAL7016 was selected following additional research, including input from W. Brown.

 

I'm happy to accept that as being just as likely to be correct as some, and more likely than others. Personally, I think that RAL7016 could offer greater contrast with the boiler bands than some lighter hues, and will really look the biz!

 

 

I didn't say the Loveless was right or wrong!

 

This kitbuilt at auction shows quite a common colour choice. Better I think than the 18% grey of the box photo.

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by maico

[truffy]

38 minutes ago, maico said:

I didn't say the Loveless was right or wrong!

 

No, you're correct, you just introduced it without comment, which leads the reader to conclude that your opinion is obvious without need for further explanation. Many, including yourself, have commented here and elsewhere that the Loveless colour scheme is somehow de facto. I must admit that I did at first, but I'm no longer convinced.

 

Given the passage of time, unreliability of B&W photographs, and the variable effect of lighting, any discussion on the actual colour amounts to counting fairies dancing on a pinhead. Everyone's waiving their willies, so I'll waive mine.

 

RAL 7016 is as good as anything, and fine by me.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Ivor Biggun

[Steamport Southport]

I've seen it described as being Slate Grey in old magazines.

 

I mean old as in decades old issues of Railway Magazine from the time rather than a couple of years ago.

 

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

It could always be British Rail engineers grey, with double arrow, and yellow smokebox ?

 

 

BR did have to inherit the livery/shade from somewhere..

 

 

lets see what Hornby come up with.

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by adb968008

[stewartingram]

Undated photo from a the collection of late friend of mine, I have no idea of the date or where he got it from, but I do know it was taken at Huntingdon.

 

Stewart

[amwells]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

I've seen it described as being Slate Grey in old magazines.

 

I mean old as in decades old issues of Railway Magazine from the time rather than a couple of years ago.

 

 

 

Jason

The March 1930 issue just calls it ‘shop grey’ which I guess isn’t that helpful 

[maico]

2 hours ago, amwells said:

The March 1930 issue just calls it ‘shop grey’ which I guess isn’t that helpful 

 

Maybe Burt in stores was hard of hearing, he dug out some old tins of window grey instead of green...

[Floreat Industria]

The photograph of Sir Nigel Gresley and his two daughters standing next to Hush Hush with the driver, fireman and inspector in the cab makes an interesting study in grey. Sir Nigel's coat is no doubt the mid grey typical of the period and his two daughters have contrasting dark coats. The light and reflection makes the loco body one shade, the cab another and the tender yet another. Also, the numerals are an interesting study in black, grey and white. One thing that does come over is that anthracite grey certainly seems to be too dark.

Where I found the photograph on the web in the last couple of weeks now unfortunately eludes me!

[maico]

Looking at this months Hornby magazine it's described as lead grey with a bit of black with silver boiler bands which sounds great.

Although there are 38 different named shades on the RAL grey chart, ranging from things like basalt grey to graphite grey there is no lead grey description for some reason.

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/east-coast-line-bumper-edition

Edited May 16, 2020 by maico

[Mr T]

The problem with trying to guess any colour from a pre war photograph is not knowing the film used. A lot of photographs then were taken with orthochromatic film which 'sees' colours differently to B&W film used postwar (mainly panchromatic) thus yellows come out as blacks and blues etc can appear lighter. Greens and greys can also appear to be similar colours

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

5 hours ago, Mr T said:

The problem with trying to guess any colour from a pre war photograph is not knowing the film used...

It's far worse than that, as anyone who has pursued monochrome photography can confirm. 'The art' is control of the tonal range to bring about the effect the photographer is seeking, and this may be achieved variously on the negative of any given emulsion by exposure, coloured filters, and the development process. And then much the same on the print by selection of the emulsion and paper combination for the desired contrast and tonal range, and varying the exposure in different parts of the print, and the development of the image.

 

As a little light (ho ho) reading, Ansel Adams 'Zone System'.

[maico]

Hatton's call it battleship grey!

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=666&utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=video&utm_campaign=mar-0504-class-w1-announcement-video

[Headstock]

On 14/05/2020 at 23:03, maico said:

Hatton's call it battleship grey!

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=666&utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=video&utm_campaign=mar-0504-class-w1-announcement-video

 

 

Good evening maico,

 

unfortunately, there is no such thing as battleship grey, Hattons are just using a lazy term. The RN, as an example, painted its Battleships and other warships in a verity of greys over the years, non of them were called battleship grey. It has been noted up thread, that the colour grey was arrived at as of a mix of two colours, this is stated in the LNER's own documentation to be the case.

 

The photograph does not show the locomotive in its final paint scheme. It made only one trip in this condition, from one works to another. The locomotive was then repainted, the black areas on the cab roof and tender were painted out and the new finish was gloss and all over. At the same time, a large grab rail was added to the front platform above the bufferbeam. The grab rail is an easy way of identifying the locomotive in the livery that Hornby are basing their model on. Because the loco was repainted, the photo is not very relevant to the model.

 

 

[Willie Whizz]

Headstock is right, there was no official 'battleship grey' colour in the RN; the term is  a loose description at best. probably favoured by the media as an easy analogy  Between the wars (which is the relevant period for this locomotive) the most likely shade for which a comparison could be made is 'Home Fleet Grey', a fairly dark-ish colour, which it was (wrongly as it turned-out) thought to be best for warships operating in Atlantic and North Sea typical weather conditions to make them less easy to spot and range upon at a distance.

, 

Battleships (and other major warships) serving in the Mediterranean Fleet - probably a third or more of the whole Navy in those days - wore a much lighter shade - rather more like 21st Century RN vessels.  Much of the enduring admiration for the appearance of the "Mighty Hood" (see my avatar) dates from her appearance at the Coronation Naval Review of 1937, for which she returned from the Mediterranean in this paler colour and made a deep and lasting impression on those who saw her at the time (or photographs of her since) in contrast to the duller, darker Home Fleet ships.

 

RN warships on the China Station (which had no permanent battleship allocation after the early 1900s as Japan was supposedly an ally) were a real throwback, having retained a Victorian-style livery of white hulls with buff-coloured funnels and parts of the upper-works.  It looked elegant on 1920s County-class cruisers with their three funnels; but distinctly odd on the otherwise very handsome late-1930s art-deco styled Town=class ships.

 

And then there was 'Mountbatten Pink' ....   but we won't go there ....

[maico]

On 14/05/2020 at 13:52, maico said:

Looking at this months Hornby magazine it's described as lead grey with a bit of black with silver boiler bands which sounds great.

Although there are 38 different named shades on the RAL grey chart, ranging from things like basalt grey to graphite grey there is no lead grey description for some reason.

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/east-coast-line-bumper-edition

 

Like many people I use Photoshop but only understand a fraction of it's features. I'm sure there are enough skin and clothing tones to estimate the reflectance levels of the gray under the cab window for someone who understands colour science.

 

[5944]

On 12/05/2020 at 23:14, adb968008 said:

I’m not even convinced the loco and tender are the same colour in that picture !

 

Though looking at its curvy nature, where would a nameplate have gone on that , even the smoke box & cab sides are curve angled.. the only flat side I see is where the worksplate is!

 

Another option would be to rub 60009’s tender down to bare metal and see what shows through its layers, they found 70 year old Apple green on 60008’s wheels after all, ive got plenty of railwayana with layers of paint on through decades of service.. tender plates, water scoop plates etc are very revealing. 60009 is attached to 10000’s original tender.

I have a feeling 60009's tender has been rebodied in preservation. You might find something on the frames though. 

[Shed Driver]

I don't know I this has already been mentioned.  Many years ago Precision Paints used to produce colour cards of their Paints .  A5 sheets with actual paint samples.  I have the sheets for the LNER colours which includes a colour for Dark Battleship grey (W1);  now a discontinued colour.  The closest other LNER colour on the charts is the Charcoal Grey for A4 smokebox fronts which looks slightly lighter with a blue tinge.

 

I once saw a set of cigarette cards from the period which had the W1 ; it was Black! 

[maico]

OK, I had a play in Photoshop setting the mid tone to Gresley's woolen coat which is likely gray or brown, the white point to the numbers and the black point to the area under the tender. The skin tones seem to have fallen into place so from looking at the vertical cab sides, I think it's possibe to say it is close to dark grey RAL 7016 and we can sleep easy...

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by maico

[truffy]

TFFT

[adb968008]

10 hours ago, maico said:

OK, I had a play in Photoshop setting the mid tone to Gresley's woolen coat which is likely gray or brown, the white point to the numbers and the black point to the area under the tender. The skin tones seem to have fallen into place so from looking at the vertical cab sides, I think it's possibe to say it is close to dark grey RAL 7016 and we can sleep easy...

 

I’m going to put the number 10001 on my letter box now.

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by adb968008

[G-BOAF]

On 12/05/2020 at 23:14, adb968008 said:

I’m not even convinced the loco and tender are the same colour in that picture !

 

Though looking at its curvy nature, where would a nameplate have gone on that , even the smoke box & cab sides are curve angled.. the only flat side I see is where the worksplate is!

 

Another option would be to rub 60009’s tender down to bare metal and see what shows through its layers, they found 70 year old Apple green on 60008’s wheels after all, ive got plenty of railwayana with layers of paint on through decades of service.. tender plates, water scoop plates etc are very revealing. 60009 is attached to 10000’s original tender.

The apple green was on 60010 wheels (which were originally apple green, even if the whole loco never ended up this colour - it was the first batch of Blue locos I think)

 

I am not sure that 60009 doesn't have a replacement tender body - my memory of the corridor was that it was welded not riveted which would indicate it has had a new tank, or at least significant new sections...

Now the question is was the chassis the same colour as the body. This is almost certainly original, indeed the buffer beam has a hole drilled in it which it is said was used to run cables for the Dynamometer Car during testing of 10000.

 

I wonder if/when 60009 is repainted for display, some careful rubbing down of areas of the chassis could be done to determine for certain the colour used on the W1.

 

Indeed it would be nice tribute to the W1 if the tender was temporarily painted back into this colour and displayed somewhere for a short while.