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Standard Cowans Sheldon 15T Crane (mk1 and mk2 Jib) announced!


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2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

@Gibbo675, fair do's, and nice models. My reason for banging on about the purpose built match wagons is that two of the cranes Oxford are offering, the ones allocated to Stoke and Wellingborough, were from the Midland's 1893 batch and, to the best of my knowledge, retained their purpose-built match trucks throughout their life.

 

The Midland had a smaller standard design of match wagon used with a variety of hand cranes of up to 5 tons capacity; I suppose other companies may not have been so fastidious. I've discussed Midland match wagons and how one might go about replicating them in my wagon building topic. For convenience I'm copying-and-pasting that here:

 

I've been mulling over Midland crane match wagons. These come in two basic varieties, to drawings 826 and 847. The former covers match wagons used with hand cranes up to 5 tons capacity, either 4 or 6 wheeled. This type of crane often overhung at both ends, so match wagons came in pairs - one with a jib rest, the other with a recess in the end to accommodate the weight box. These wagons were built on the standard 14'11" over headstocks, 9'0" wheelbase underframe and had sides 1'8⅜” high - 3 planks. One such is very nicely restored at Butterley, though without its jib rest. 182 of these were built in the 1890s, enough for 91 cranes - so, a reasonably common sight around the Midland system. It would appear that many of these cranes were assigned to the Engineers, Way & Works, or Signal Departments. Some of these pairs of wagons may have replaced earlier dumb-buffered wagons of similar design. The Midland acquired a number of 10 ton 6-wheeled hand cranes from Cowans Sheldon in the mid 1870s; these had negligible weight box overhang and hence, it would appear, only jib rest match wagons.

 

From a modelling perspective, the most straightforward approach would be to start from a Slaters D299 kit, cutting the ends down to 3 planks, and scratchbuilding the sides. The tail match wagons might need completely scratch built ends as well.

 

The second variety of match wagon, to drawing 847, first appeared in 1891 as a single example to work with a 10 ton crane. This was a stretched version of the standard jib rest wagon, 17'11" over headstocks and 10'6" wheelbase. Fortunately, the Midland Railway Study Centre has made a copy of the drawing available. This drawing has various additions and annotations relating to the next batch of four, Nos. 114903-6, built in 1893 for the first batch of Cowans Sheldon 15 ton steam cranes, Nos. 25-28, including a note that the Loco Dept had provided a different design of jib rest and sketching in various brackets under the frame to carry the crane's stabilisation girders. A further one-off was built in 1899 for another 10 ton crane, then another batch of four, Nos. 116950-3 the same year for the second batch of 15 ton cranes, Nos, 29-32. These were built to another revision of the drawing, 847A, and incorporated equipment lockers under the underframe. A further one of this design, No. 117284, was built in 1901 for the final 15 ton crane No. 33.

 

The dimensions of these wagons don't match those of any other Midland wagons. My current thinking is that the best starting-point would be a Slaters cattle wagon underframe - 19'1" over headstocks, 11'0" wheelbase, with 2 mm taken out of the middle of the solebars and 1.3 mm trimmed off each end. The molded oil axleboxes would have to be replaced with MJT cast Ellis 10A grease ones and the brake gear trimmed to fit. The ends and sides would be as suggested for the standard jib match wagon.

 

Once upon a time the underframes of the Slaters Midland wagon kits were sold separately but these haven't reappeared along with the re-issued kits. I have a stash of the 9 ft wheelbase ones but none of the 11 ft wheelbase so a whole cattle wagon would have to be sacrificed to this project! I also need to have another look at my D&S kit...

 

Full details of the Midland and LTSR Cowans Sheldon 15 ton steam cranes and their match wagons, with modellers' drawings of the Loco Dept's improved jib rest, are in a couple of articles by Dave Hunt in Midland Record Vols. 2 and 6.

Hi Stephen,

 

Excellent information you have provided here I'm sure anyone wishing to build a truly accurate jib runner will find your findings most useful. This is just the kind of detailed information that needs to be shared along with photographs and descriptions where possible. The possible sources of the different under frames can be most useful in much the same way that I modified the axle boxes of a Parkside LNER clasp brake underframe to use under a Hornby Dublo Prestwin build.

 

I am currently working upon two sketch drawings with brief descriptions, one for the Booth Rodley Dapol crane carriage for which I used an LNER tender underframe and the other for a Park Royal DMU cut and shut. I shall post them both on their appropriate threads one of which is my Rail Mounted Cranes thread, and will be useful to those that are interested in such.

 

Would you be interested in contributing with sketches and descriptions ?

 

Good information makes for an easy life !

 

Gibbo.

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11 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

 

Would you be interested in contributing with sketches and descriptions ?

 

 

I had been planning to build the match wagon for the 15 ton crane for a while (I have the D&S kit...) but it's shot up my priority list this week! I have purchase a Slaters cattle wagon kit first but will be happy to describe it in due course. 

 

Apart from the drawing in the Midland Study Centre collection, all the drawings I have access to are @Dave Hunt's in his Midland Record articles, so copyright of Wild Swan and Dave, I presume. But I could do dimensioned sketches as I go along.

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Stephen,

 

As far as I am concerned I am happy for you to copy and share my drawings with anyone you like. If I get the time in the near future I will see whether I can find the originals and send them to you; failing that you may be able to scan the reproductions in Midland Record.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

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6 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

Stephen,

 

As far as I am concerned I am happy for you to copy and share my drawings with anyone you like. If I get the time in the near future I will see whether I can find the originals and send them to you; failing that you may be able to scan the reproductions in Midland Record.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

 

Thank you Dave, that definitely qualifies as a Public Benefit. I've ordered a Slaters cattle wagon.

 

7 hours ago, Edwardian said:

That's alright, you all enjoy yourselves in anticipation of this release; my friends tell me that my railway is too insignificant to warrant one!!!

 

I think what was said was that it would be an unlikely acquisition for a railway of that size. But there's no accounting for the profligacy of your directors and their freedom to have recourse to rule 1.

Edited by Compound2632
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22 hours ago, Black 5 Bear said:

Not wishing to pre-empt OR as they haven't as yet given details of liveries only running numbers and depots.

I would hazard a guess that it will be Full black/Full red livery for the BR versions era 4/5 respectively.

Not sure as to the other variants, grey for the LNER possibly?


Thanks, I was hoping for a full black one, even red would be nice. I'd prefer black as I can have their receintly announced Pilchard flat wagon along with it.

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58 minutes ago, Nile said:

 The final picture in this listing has some interesting line drawings of the crane and various match trucks.

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2 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 The final picture in this listing has some interesting line drawings of the crane and various match trucks.

 

Which shows a multitude of jib rests too - so the one supplied with the crane will presumably be generic.

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I wonder if one of those clver people who produce CADs for 3D printing could be a good friend to the Great Western enthusiast here? Maybe a cab and jib runner (or parts to adapt an RTR flat wagon) would be worth someone selling via Shapeways if (understandably) it is all too specific for a volume RTR manufacturer.

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Whilst the matter of the jib runner for the GWR has been largely resolved. I, and I believe, quite possibly others, would be interested in what the other three companies cobbled together, or was something provided by Cowans. I imagine for instance that delivery took place by rail thus necessitating a jib runner. I cannot imagine them being delivered as some kind of oversize Meccano set. Could some kind soul, without fear of breaking copyright, provide photos, preferably dateable, of these.

 

mfG

 

Nigel

with thanks in advance.

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10 minutes ago, doktorstamp said:

I, and I believe, quite possibly others, would be interested in what the other three companies cobbled together, or was something provided by Cowans. I imagine for instance that delivery took place by rail thus necessitating a jib runner.

 

Please see my previous posts in this topic for details of the match wagons used with the LMS ex-Midland cranes - the Stoke and Wellingborough models Oxford are promising. There were nine of these cranes altogether, with match wagons of the same type - for curved jib examples from 1893 and five swan-necked jib examples from 1899/1901, although one of the 1893 batch did not reach the LMS, going to the War Dept c. 1914.

 

Hunt, op. cit., gives the following details, to which I've added the match wagon numbers:

 

1st MR No. / 2nd MR No. / 1st LMS No. / 2nd LMS/BR No. / match wagon No. / allocation / withdrawal

 

25 / 245 / MP36 / RS1023/15 / 114903 / Leeds? Carslisle 1893; LLandudno Jct ? Birkenhead 1938; Stoke 1939; Llandudno Jct 1961 / 1964

 

26 / 241 / MP33 / RS1022/15 / 114904 / Saltley 1893; Gloucester 1931; Bath 1942; to SR 1950 / ?

 

27 / 242 / - / - / 114905 / Derby 1893; War Dept 1914? / ?

 

28 / 243 / MP34 / RS1036/15 / 114906 / Wellingborough 1893; Hellifield 1943 / 1951

 

29 / 244 / MP31 / RS1037/15 / 116951 / Cricklewood 1899; Nottingham 1927 / 1964

 

30 / 240 / MP41 / RS1028/15 / 116952 / Leeds 1899; Wakefield 1924; Accrington 1944; Hellifield 1959 / 1966

 

31 / 247 / MP38 / RS1025/15 / 116953 / Bristol 1899; Warrington; Edge Hill 1957; Bletchley 1942 / 1961

 

32 / 246 / MP35 / RS1021/15 / 116954 / Belle Vue 1899; Longsight 1937; Bolton yard 1960 / 1965

 

33 / 248 / MP32 / RS1030/15 / 117284/ Sheffield 1901; Hasland 1931; Hellifield 1950 / 1959

 

LTSR / 250 / MP37 / RS1024/15 / LTSR 1855 - reno. MR 117654 / Plaistow 1906; Bescot 1933 / 1963

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32 minutes ago, FTSK said:

For Southern Modellers, the current issue of Southern Way (no 49) shows a Stewarts Lane 15t crane complete with match truck

 

Thanks for the info, it has now been ordered! 

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Hi

 

I'm planning on making a 3d printed GWR match truck to suit the new Oxford crane. Does anyone have some accurate specs for one also does anyone know of a possible chassis we could use an just 3d print the top half like tool boxes an jib support etc. Any info would be much appreciated. 

 

 

 

Kind regards Neil 

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4 minutes ago, B15nac said:

Hi

 

I'm planning on making a 3d printed GWR match truck to suit the new Oxford crane. Does anyone have some accurate specs for one also does anyone know of a possible chassis we could use an just 3d print the top half like tool boxes an jib support etc. Any info would be much appreciated. 

 

 

 

Kind regards Neil 

The NRM have a drawing of one diagram (I think the version done by Brassmasters) there is photo of it here http://www.bpodmore.co.uk/Projects/Breakdown_Crane.htm

 

Are you going to do the cab as well?

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2 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

Are you going to do the cab as well?

 

As far as I can see, Oxford have not said what they are doing about cabs/roofs for the different versions promised. I'm hoping that whatever they do do will be removable so the crane can be restored to original Midland condition! (Per the publicity photo.)

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Also, as far as I know, they haven't actually confirmed that there will be both curved and swan-necked jibs, and haven't said anything about long and short jib options, nor whether the model will have early or late intermediate shaft bearings.

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28 minutes ago, craneman said:

Also, as far as I know, they haven't actually confirmed that there will be both curved and swan-necked jibs, and haven't said anything about long and short jib options, nor whether the model will have early or late intermediate shaft bearings.

 

The original announcement says there will be mk1 and mk2 jibs, which presumably relate to the different shaped ends. Given the price (even if the actual RRP is higher than has been stated), I doubt if there will be many, if any, other variants. But we'll obviously find out more as the model goes further through the development process and pre-release images become available.

 

Given both the ubiquity of this type of crane, and the number of different variants which did exist throughout the prototype's life, I hope the model will at least be constructed in such a way as to allow for relatively simple modification. Detailing/customising one of these could be a very enjoyable project.

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7 hours ago, craneman said:

Also, as far as I know, they haven't actually confirmed that there will be both curved and swan-necked jibs, and haven't said anything about long and short jib options, nor whether the model will have early or late intermediate shaft bearings.

 

As two of the prototypes, Stoke (BR) and Wellingborough (LMS) are cranes from the Midland's 1893 batch, there's a prima facie case that one of the versions will be the curved jib type, corresponding (in original condition) to the photo use in the publicity, with all the implications as to jib length and intermediate shaft bearings. I'm not familiar with the other two prototypes: are these the swan-necked type?

 

Remember that it is possible that you know more about the detail variations in these cranes than do Oxford Rail, who may well be working from a single set of drawings.

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23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As two of the prototypes, Stoke (BR) and Wellingborough (LMS) are cranes from the Midland's 1893 batch, there's a prima facie case that one of the versions will be the curved jib type, corresponding (in original condition) to the photo use in the publicity, with all the implications as to jib length and intermediate shaft bearings. I'm not familiar with the other two prototypes: are these the swan-necked type?

 

Remember that it is possible that you know more about the detail variations in these cranes than do Oxford Rail, who may well be working from a single set of drawings.

 

The other two cranes were both equipped with a swan neck jib - the problem lies in that according to the Tatlow volume,  one (901628) was equipped with a short (24 feet) jib whilst the other (DS.316) was given a longer (26 feet) jib.

 

This being the case then at least one of them will be wrong if the specimens were chosen on the basis of having a swan neck jib without realising that jib lengths differed.

 

I emailed Oxford Rail to ask what length of jib was planned for the swan necked variants but as yet I haven't heard anything back.

 

I'm interested in a swan necked variant to pose as RS1021/15, allocated to Bolton Yard between 1960-65  so I'm in with a 50:50 chance of it being the required long jib type (it won't be the end of the world if it comes with a short jib as it should be easier to add length rather than remove it).

 

Therefore as it stands the curved jib MR variants should be the more likely of the two sets to be accurate in respect of jib length given they were both the same long jib type (presuming Oxford don't tool them with a short jib!).

 

EDIT: I've just looked at what drawings are available in the Tatlow volume to see what Oxford could use as a reference.

 

The curved jib variant is depicted with a detailed drawing showing both long or short jibs whilst the detailed drawing for the swan necked type depicts the crane supplied to the SER with a long jib (the drawing doesn't show the short version unlike that for the curved type).

 

Edited by SP Steve
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