Okehampton Railway re-opening

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, Captain Kernow said:

Well, I never thought we'd see such a thing!

 

Batteries, yes but not catenary for roads.

 

That Catenary is a wazzock idea, unless it is a dedicated Lorry track. Lange changing, Junctions, weather, crap on the wires, idiot  drivers of other vehicles, breakdowns. Blimey, I checked the date and it wasn't April.  

Then, if it is a dedicated Lorry Track then why not invest on a railway Track in this flat land area instead, that conventional Locomotives can use, hauling Conts Flats?

I know I said look ahead 25 years, but this is bonkers in so many ways.

However, if it was design  clever (sorry) and the wires were just there to give supply (saving use of and recharging battery) on a certain stretch dedicated to trucks, a bit like the Bi Mode rail units we have now, then maybe there is something in that idea?

Hilarious but will earn someone doing the Consulting, a lot of money as usual (an agenda I hate.....).

P

[Siberian Snooper]

That's all well and fine, until they get to a lowish bridge and the cable has to dip to a couple of inches above the roof of the lorry and what about over height loads, are they going to take the knitting down for that?

 

 

[phil-b259]

20 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

That's all well and fine, until they get to a lowish bridge and the cable has to dip to a couple of inches above the roof of the lorry and what about over height loads, are they going to take the knitting down for that?

 

 

 

The idea is to fit the OLE on motorways and key sections of the A road network like the A42 or A14 (most of which should have been built as motorways in the first place like they tend to do in continental Europe, but I digress....) - NOT the general road network.

 

On such high spec roads the bridges are of such a height that installing OLE will not present clearance difficulties in 99.999999% of cases.

[corneliuslundie]

Wouldn't a trolley bus arrangement be better for dealing with the need to change lanes etc?

OK until a pole comes off the wire - as I remember in Cardiff.

Mind you, I was in a French city with both trolley buses and trams - quite some knitting at the bus/tram station. But the point of mentioning it is that a trolley bus did come off the wire. The driver didn't try to put it back on on a busy road. He just started the diesel engine and drove out of the way.

But like all these things, will there be enough juice?

Jonathan

[phil-b259]

10 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

That Catenary is a wazzock idea, unless it is a dedicated Lorry track. Lange changing, Junctions, weather, crap on the wires, idiot  drivers of other vehicles, breakdowns. Blimey, I checked the date and it wasn't April.  

Then, if it is a dedicated Lorry Track then why not invest on a railway Track in this flat land area instead, that conventional Locomotives can use, hauling Conts Flats?

I know I said look ahead 25 years, but this is bonkers in so many ways.

 

 

It is - but for a Government whose stated policy is "its unfair on taxpayers' to subsidise the railways to a significant degree as only 10% of travel nationally is done by rail" spending cash of electrifying the road network and pushing electric vehicles is a far better policy fit. It also keeps the likes of Mr Wilkinson* happy as the sheer number of separate road transport firms available means no militant Unions to worry about.

 

Of course such a strategy ignores the fact that throughout the rest of Europe that a proactive strategy of  increasing rail subsidy to increase rail usage to GROW the market and increase market share - rather than sitting back and letting 'the market' define policy is a far better approach for the planet!

 

 

* The director of rail passenger franchising at the DfT who deliberately provoked several DOO disputes several years ago and boasted to his Conservative party mates that he was going to 'break the Unions'

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by phil-b259

[Mike_Walker]

British politicians of all stripes have never forgiven the fact that William Huskisson was run down by Rocket and have been seeking revenge ever since!  

[MarcD]

To quote the late and much missed Sir Humphrey Appleby: Government policy has nothing to do with common sense, Bernard.

there ended many lessons!

 

marc

[Mallard60022]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The idea is to fit the OLE on motorways and key sections of the A road network like the A42 or A14 (most of which should have been built as motorways in the first place like they tend to do in continental Europe, but I digress....) - NOT the general road network.

 

On such high spec roads the bridges are of such a height that installing OLE will not present clearance difficulties in 99.999999% of cases.

Good God, I use the A 42 regularly and it is already bonkers.

P

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I have just had a brilliant idea. How about electric milk floats?

Hat, coat . . .

Jonathan

Beat ya - our milkman appears  to use a battery powered delivery vehicle  (if it isn't battery powered then it has the most effectively silenced engine I have ever heard, it doesn't make any noise at all apart from a slight rattle of the milk crates when it starts to move).

 

21 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Yup, all funded by taxpayers...

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/road-freight-goes-green-with-20-million-funding-boost

https://trans.info/en/uk-government-to-fund-electric-road-system-trial-on-m180-near-scunthorpe-248190

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jul/27/uk-government-backs-scheme-for-motorway-cables-to-power-lorries

https://www.costain.com/news/news-releases/green-light-for-path-to-uk-s-first-electric-motorway/

This raises a number of questions but surely the most obvious must be if it is cheap enough to electrify roads why isn't it cheap enough to electrify railways?   And wouldn't it be fun if a lorry had to turn to get past am an obstructions with its pan up - there's enough trouble with lorries hitting bridges let alone giving them a grat opportunity to start bring down ohle as they crawl chunter along an 'electrified road'.

[Oldddudders]

My postman uses an electric van, has done so for years, and I live in the middle of nowhere. And I note the NHS blood service in Torbay uses an electric van.

 

What's a milkman?

[corneliuslundie]

You see we still have civilisation in mid Wales. Peter comes six days a week to deliver the milk.

A question about electrifying roads. How does one charge for the energy use?

Jonathan

[The Great Bear]

10 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

On such high spec roads the bridges are of such a height that installing OLE will not present clearance difficulties in 99.999999% of cases.

 

I'm not sure about that. New bridges are designed to 5.3m min headroom to allow for future resurfacing. The minimum maintained headroom is 5.03m, which matches what below has to be signed as a height restriction. Because of past resurfacing many trunk road bridges will be somewhere between these two values. Some but not all new bridges are designed like sign gantries to 5.7m headroom so as to avoid having to design for collision loads on the superstructure. Only on designated high load routes is more provided, I think 6.5m and far from all trunk roads fall into that category. The A14 for instance I don't think is a high load route or not throughout.

Edited January 20, 2022 by The Great Bear

[phil-b259]

4 minutes ago, The Great Bear said:

 

I'm not sure about that. New bridges are designed to 5.3m min headroom to allow for future resurfacing. The minimum maintained headroom is 5.03m, which matches what below has to be signed as a height restriction. Because of past resurfacing many trunk road bridges will be somewhere between these two values. Some but not all new bridges are designed like sign gantries to 5.7m headroom so as to avoid having to avoid for collision loads on the superstructure. Only on designated high load routes is more provided, I think 6.5m and far from all trunk roads fall into that category. The A14 for instance I don't think is a high load route or not throughout.

 

Well the trial is to happen on the M180 and from Google street view none of the bridges on that route are higher than the norm so clearly its not considered an issue.

[Mark Saunders]

4 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

You see we still have civilisation in mid Wales. Peter comes six days a week to deliver the milk.

A question about electrifying roads. How does one charge for the energy use?

Jonathan

I would imagine an electric meter but I fear that it won’t take long to find a way around it rather in the way tachometers are fiddled!

[Zomboid]

I can't see OLE for roads working for anything other than specific captive flows, if at all. The major benefit of road is its flexibility, and requiring electrification basically eliminates that. And once you do away with the flexibility and have special routes that you can run on, it's basically a much less efficient train that needs one driver per wagon.

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, Zomboid said:

I can't see OLE for roads working for anything other than specific captive flows, if at all. The major benefit of road is its flexibility, and requiring electrification basically eliminates that. And once you do away with the flexibility and have special routes that you can run on, it's basically a much less efficient train that needs one driver per wagon.

 

The idea is it allows for battery powered lorries - they can recharge / keep the batteries at full charge while on the core network thus preserving battery power for use on the rest of the journey. I would also expect there to be Government grants towards fixed charging facilities at depots / terminals so the lorries can be recharged while loading / unloading.

 

Typically this would include things like logistics (parcels, grocery superstore deliveries, etc) - ironically the very traffics that have seen a return to rail over the past couple of years.

 

In concept its no different in principle to a battery powered EMU which uses OLE on the WCML but battery power on the Windermere branch for example.

 

And yes, while it might be much less efficient in manpower for trunk hauls - the whole point of road vehicles are their flexibility including the absence of transhipment to complete the journey! That won't change regardless of the methods of propulsion used and hence why strict Government regulation (as seen in Switzerland) combined with generous rail subsidies are needed to make an impact. Both things that a certain political party regard as Satans work and are diametrically opposed to embracing 'the power of the free market' to cure all problems....

[APOLLO]

On 20/01/2022 at 11:04, MarcD said:

To quote the late and much missed Sir Humphrey Appleby: Government policy has nothing to do with common sense, Bernard.

there ended many lessons!

 

marc

 

 

 

Brit15

[MarcD]

That would be a political decision. Civil Servant's are not there the make decisions only to provide their political masters with the information to allow them to make the correct decision. I would have advised the minster, in-charge of making such decisions, that such a project would be brave. And that they may want to review the other options that a civil service might have worked on. On a slightly more serious note civil servants were always told before doing anything think of how your actions would look splashed across the front page of  a tabloid news paper. Something our political masters, regardless of colour, have never thought about.

 

Marc

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

" Civil Servant's are not there the make decisions only to provide their political masters with the information to allow them to make the correct decision."

In an ideal world, yes.

A problem though is that whatever the government the ministers are usually not very au fait with their given ministry's activities and policies, because they have usually not been around long, and they have to rely on the civil servants. So the civil servants can easily sell their pet schemes to ministers who have no way of judging them.

The same is true of local authorities, as I have witnessed at least twice in the one where I live.

Jonathan

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder what happens when there's lane closures or accidents, or very strong winds blowing in off the North Sea 

 

And what fun with some new signs in The Highway Code -

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

1 hour ago, MarcD said:

I would have advised the minster, in-charge of making such decisions, that such a project would be brave.

 

Ah yes, a classic Yes Minister.

 

 

[APOLLO]

Bring back the Trolleybus !!

 

 

Brit15

[Northmoor]

38 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

" Civil Servant's are not there the make decisions only to provide their political masters with the information to allow them to make the correct decision."

In an ideal world, yes.

A problem though is that whatever the government the ministers are usually not very au fait with their given ministry's activities and policies, because they have usually not been around long, and they have to rely on the civil servants. So the civil servants can easily sell their pet schemes to ministers who have no way of judging them.

The same is true of local authorities, as I have witnessed at least twice in the one where I live.

Jonathan

If they end up on the "wrong" end of Civil Service advice in this instance, I have zero sympathy for government ministers and their prime-minister.  PMs almost never appoint someone to a government department where they might actually have some domain knowledge, because they might be able to make their leader's declared policy look completely uninformed.  This is why someone like Labour's Frank Field, who even most Conservative MPs would have admitted was probably the national authority on the benefits system (and the likely impact of any proposed changes), didn't last long in the DSS under Tony Blair.  It was to Estelle Morris' credit that she resigned as SoS for Education, feeling that she wasn't up to working at that level.  Who ever admits that, in any organisation?  A shame, as she had spent 18 years working as a teacher.  How many Defence Ministers have ever served in the Armed Forces?

 

I'm not a Labour Party member (and don't think I've ever voted for one of their candidates in any election) but am happy to credit the (many more than we tend to credit) good ones in all parties who genuinely want to be a public servant and have little interest in their own political status.

[corneliuslundie]

Is it perhaps time to get back to mid Devon?

Jonathan

I know I am as bad at anyone for deviating.

[Oldddudders]

52 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Is it perhaps time to get back to mid Devon?

Jonathan

I know I am as bad at anyone for deviating.

In this enlightened age, I believe a little deviation among consenting adults is considered moderately acceptable.