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Class 88/93


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  • 2 months later...

For those hoping for a 93.....

 

The project is back on track (no pun intended)

 

 

It may be worth keeping Class 93 discussions there.

Until someone announces a model of a 93 and then a new thread can be started.

 

Edited by newbryford
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  • 1 month later...
3 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

I see RevolutioN have announced an 00 Class 93: Class 93

 

Order book not open yet.


Roy 

There is also a thread for the Class 93 in the Revolution Trains section.

 

The Class 93 was always going to look different from the Class 88 due to the licensing that DRS have meant to got on them IIRC when they ordered them. Hopefully now that another Diesel/Electric Locomotive is being done/ will be done it will make someone consider making the Class 88. 

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Not really seeing how someone doing a 93 is going to make someone else doing the completely different 88 more likely?

 

All the reasons the 88 hasn't been touched yet are still valid.

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38 minutes ago, Kaput said:

Not really seeing how someone doing a 93 is going to make someone else doing the completely different 88 more likely?

 

All the reasons the 88 hasn't been touched yet are still valid.

 

I'm interested to know what reasons there are to touch this that do not also apply to the 88.

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I'll admit thats a valid point. Especially at this point in the real locomotive's development it is a little surprising a model is in the works.

 

Only real worthwhile difference I suppose is the 93 is a order of 10 with an option for another 20 while the 88 is a class of 10 with no (announced) plans for anymore for any operators, therefore it has a more limited scope and appeal.

 

Don't get me wrong, it would be nice for the 88 to get a model but it strikes me as the only chance of being viable is if Dapol done it but they have shown zero interest in it so far.

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21 minutes ago, Kaput said:

Don't get me wrong, it would be nice for the 88 to get a model but it strikes me as the only chance of being viable is if Dapol done it but they have shown zero interest in it so far.

 

I think that's probably it to an extent. Dapol are in a prime position given there would be quite a lot of commonality between the two locos (although a new body and some new detail parts would be required, a lot of detail parts, the chassis, bogies etc would probably be OK although not 100% sure), which could have put others off given there could be a commercial advantage in an arm's race but what we also know is how long it has taken them to do a 59.

 

23 minutes ago, Kaput said:

I'll admit thats a valid point. Especially at this point in the real locomotive's development it is a little surprising a model is in the works.

 

Yes, and it was not a direct counter point to what you said, because as you put it yourself it's a surprise this has happened and also it still doesn't make the 88 more likely, but I thought it worthwhile considering.

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I’m constantly confused by the manufacturers....we got three of them doing a 25.....only one doing a 50....no one doing an 88 .....and now this machine ...

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On 24/02/2021 at 22:17, TomScrut said:

 

I'm interested to know what reasons there are to touch this that do not also apply to the 88.

 

IIRC the issue with the class 88 is commercial - DRS own the design rights and either won't licence anyone to go produce one in model form, or the cost of said licence compared to the amount of profit a model manufacturer would receive doesn't make producing them good business sense.

 

Its something people tend to forget - unlike BR stock / Liveries, ANYTHING that has been commissioned by a privately owned railway company (livery or entire loco / unit / carriage / wagon is off limits unless official permission is received to reproduce it.

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29 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

IIRC the issue with the class 88 is commercial - DRS own the design rights and either won't licence anyone to go produce one in model form, or the cost of said licence compared to the amount of profit a model manufacturer would receive doesn't make producing them good business sense.

 

And if I recall correctly DRS have some sort of IP ownership on the shape too (probably why these don't look the same), which AFAIK is unusual, I *think* most of the time there would be a negotiation with the manufacturer for the loco design and then the operator for the livery. For example I'd expect Hornby will produce 800s with agreements with Hitachi, GWR and LNER, and it could be the reason why the TPE 802 didn't happen.

 

I expect most of the time it's either a formality where the owners of the IP get a small fee for doing very little, or its an absolute nightmare where the owners don't understand the market/monies involved (probably after staff changes or new companies forming)

 

32 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

unlike BR stock / Liveries

 

I bet somewhere there is still some ownership of design and/or livery for a lot of stuff. The thing is whether anybody is going to try/has the evidence to enforce it.

 

It wouldn't surprise me for example if DfT would be able to stake a claim to BR logos. They provide just cannot be bothered.

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22 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

It wouldn't surprise me for example if DfT would be able to stake a claim to BR logos. They provide just cannot be bothered.

 

Yes the rights / intellectual property belonging to all ex British Rail stuff (and in fact pretty much all railway designs including the grouping and pre-grouping eras) is, like all defunct nationalised companies, held by the Government - in this case the DfT.

 

The key difference however is that the DfT is a Government department and as such is legally obliged to make such stuff available for use by the public or model companies when asked to do so. They are also unlikely to have someone sitting there ready to pounce on a company making a model of something in BR colours (unlike the situation at the Department of Health who will go after someone producing something with NHS logos on it).

 

Private organisations face no such obligations - had nationalisation not occurred then we could well have lost an awful lot of useful info that the Government has felt the need to preserve or transfer to the national archives.

Edited by phil-b259
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12 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

IIRC the issue with the class 88 is commercial - DRS own the design rights and either won't licence anyone to go produce one in model form, or the cost of said licence compared to the amount of profit a model manufacturer would receive doesn't make producing them good business sense.

 

Its something people tend to forget - unlike BR stock / Liveries, ANYTHING that has been commissioned by a privately owned railway company (livery or entire loco / unit / carriage / wagon is off limits unless official permission is received to reproduce it.

I don’t know why then , when Dapol got the licence for the 68, there wasn’t a sub clause covering the 88 too.

Personally I think Dapol thought it’s a non starter as normally one if the criteria for a possible model subject is “ lots of liveries “,

That’s also why I find the 93 idea interesting , as initially seems a bit restricted ( somebody might make a few quid making some barrier coaches for stock moves )

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6 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

when Dapol got the licence for the 68, there wasn’t a sub clause covering the 88 too.

 

I am pretty sure that was covered in the lengthy "Dapol can we have an 88" (or whatever it was called) thread. IIRC DRS didn't want to negotiate the 88 at the same time.

 

 

8 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

That’s also why I find the 93 idea interesting , as initially seems a bit restricted ( somebody might make a few quid making some barrier coaches for stock moves )

 

Yes, I have an EP/ROG 37 on order from AS with literally nothing for it to pull at the moment, the livery sold it. I am thinking of sorting some barriers for it in due course but I will wait, I think somebody will make some. There soon will be 3 manufacturers having done ROG 37s, and 2 having done ROG 47s so I'd expect the market for stock will be there.

 

As with this, the loco is selling itself I'll think about matching stock in due course.

 

But that's also the interesting thing about the 88, there's plenty of RTR stock it runs/has run with.

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On 24/02/2021 at 17:17, TomScrut said:

 

I'm interested to know what reasons there are to touch this that do not also apply to the 88.

 

The 93 is different in 2 key ways - it looks different, and it has a different livery.

 

This means it will stand out on the retailer's shelf, and thus be more likely to be purchased by the casual buyer.

 

The ongoing problem with the 88 is that it has the same livery as the 68, and other than some roof details looks like a 68 - so most people will be quite happy to just buy the 68 or skip buying the 88 because they already have it in the form of the 68. (yes, for us detail people they are different, but we are a minority in this hobby).

 

Now add in a potentially larger fleet and more geographically diverse operating area and the 93 makes a lot more sense than a 88.

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2 minutes ago, mdvle said:

and it has a different livery

 

2 minutes ago, mdvle said:

The ongoing problem with the 88 is that it has the same livery as the 68

 

No it doesn't, but the fact that you haven't spotted this does work for the point you're making!

 

3 minutes ago, mdvle said:

more geographically diverse operating area

 

Haven't the 88s pretty much been all over the UK at one point or another?

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16 hours ago, rob D2 said:

I’m constantly confused by the manufacturers....we got three of them doing a 25.....only one doing a 50....no one doing an 88 .....and now this machine ...

 

Sometimes it comes down to unfortunate circumstances - that a manufacturer has spent too much money on a new project to cancel it when it becomes public that someone else is doing it.  Or there is enough of a market for multiple offerings.  Or in some cases stubbornness.

 

My guess is that at some point someone will tool a better Class 50, there are enough issues with the Hornby model to justify it - combined with a reasonable sized fleet and numerous liveries.

 

While I won't (any more) say no one will make the 88, it will be a tough sell and it may come down to someone doing an expressions of interest or even crowd funding.

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57 minutes ago, mdvle said:

down to someone doing an expressions of interest or even crowd funding

 

And that is something I really hope happens more often, although in terms of crowd finding I do prefer placing a deposit rather than the full amount having been burnt before (in a non model railway situation). I hope somebody does a mk2 NR DBSO on these grounds like Revolution have with Caroline.

 

There are a few items that I think would benefit from that, where it would seem the manufacturers have done a run or two of and then not done any more (probably due to slow sales) yet nowadays they fetch strong money on eBay etc. Dapol MRAs, Bachman JJAs, Polybulk wagons, Hornby/Drax Biomass wagons.

 

Dapol nailed it I think with the TPE 68 EOI/ordering process. They could easily have said "oh, we made some of those before, not sure there's enough interest to do more".

 

If somebody offers up to look into it based on an EOI or people putting money where their mouths are then nobody can argue either way as to if it should or shouldn't happen.

 

59 minutes ago, mdvle said:

someone will tool a better Class 50, there are enough issues with the Hornby model to justify it

 

I think the biggest reason is the price Hornby get away with charging for the current one. If they were only £120-130 a pop then I bet nobody would dare try doing a better one. I expect the Hattons 66 and the AS 37 and 55 were encouraged by the high RRP of old tooled items.

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On 27/02/2021 at 15:19, TomScrut said:

 

And that is something I really hope happens more often, although in terms of crowd finding I do prefer placing a deposit rather than the full amount having been burnt before (in a non model railway situation). I hope somebody does a mk2 NR DBSO on these grounds like Revolution have with Caroline.

 

 

Problem with doing the NwR RTOV (as they are officially known) is that there are only five of them, with two major variants .

Generator and fuel tank fitted 9701/08/14, non-generator 9702/03.

Then:

9701 is quite different from 08/14 as it doesn't carry the SGT gear and 9708/14 vary with the placement of visible SGT details.

9702/03 are reasonably similar.

 

There are other minor detail variants.

 

So - five RTOVs - four distinct versions of them. [*]

 

Who'd want to be a manufacturer with those variations across a small coach fleet as no doubt there'll be the "you're only doing 9701 and 9702 - I want 9708....." outcry.

 

I can see small fleet/variances happening with locos as the RTR market is generally loco-centric, but not with coaching stock.

 

[*] All good fun when chopping Airfix Mk2s for less than a tenner!

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