Royal train tour announced

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Now name other stations with a hospital close by. I doubt it will be in a busy city centre hospital in Tier Three.

 

Jason

QE in Birmingham, has it's own station (University, shared with the parent Uni)

[TravisM]

The mention of a new “Royal Yacht” keeps being mentioned and then firmly dismissed, mainly due to the pressures of the Royal Navy and their overseas commitments.  When I lived in Portsmouth, I never really heard anything good about it except the amount of money it drains from the public purse.

 

If a new “Royal Train” was to be commissioned, I’m sure it would be something like TPE’s Mk5’s, and just one loco needed.  I notice now that when the queen travels to Sandringham, it’s by scheduled Great Northern services to Kings Lynn.  Can’t honestly see her standing at the taxi rank though .

Edited December 7, 2020 by jools1959

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, jools1959 said:

The mention of a new “Royal Yacht” keeps being mentioned and then firmly dismissed, mainly due to the pressures of the Royal Navy and their overseas commitments.  When I lived in Portsmouth, I never really heard anything good at it except the amount of money it drains from the public purse.

 

If a new “Royal Train” was to be commissioned, I’m sure it would be something like TPE’s Mk5’s, and just one loco needed.  I notice now that when the queen travels to Sandringham, it’s by scheduled Great Northern services to Kings Lynn.  Can’t honestly see her standing at the taxi rank though .

Two locos for security. T&T

[25901]

9 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Two locos for security. T&T

The Royal 142's as provided by Northern lol

[adb968008]

14 minutes ago, 25901 said:

The Royal 142's as provided by Northern lol

 

More Royle family than Royal Family.

Edited December 6, 2020 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

40 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

if a Royal Yacht was used for government as well as royal business, for global business promotion, then its a good thing, as its growing the UK on a global stage.

 

However the royal train harks back to days of secure transportation vs Highwaymen, Robin Hood, Dick Turpin and who ever else could ambush a stage coach. Latterly the train was a faster medium vs cobble and mud roads. 
The UK today has good road & air transport as well as a nation of good hotels.

 

The train is probably in good condition and could well last another decade, but  mk3’s are now history, in 10 years spare parts are going to be hard to source. It will be bad news if the government is buying derelict sleepers from preserved railways to maintain the royal train... those costs are going to rise... even tonights formation has a borrowed DBS staff train sleeping coach in the formation.

 

If the 67’s end up sold on, (no suggestion they will, but 67’s arent getting the healthy revenue they should be) will they keep a dedicated royal train fleet ? That adds to the cost.. the end of EWS 47’s is why the 67’s came.

 

If they decide to buy a new Royal Train in a decade, it will need to be one of a production new build type to avoid too many one off costs, but given loco hauled has pretty much gone, so will dedicated rolling stock... it could well be a royal Multiple Unit... but bear in mind public image, only the UK, North Korea has royal train. China has a presidential train, the rest of the world has moved on to planes, cars and helicopters.

 

The UK however does have a growing market of luxury trains, which presumably could be hired, and maybe where the royal train ownership ends up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good hotels still need to be secure!

 

That means lots of effort and disruption for guests and staff - shutting off entire floors and rooms etc.

 

As has been explained many times the point of the Royal train is not its luxury or as as a display of superiority over others - its the fact that from a logistical point of view its very useful as senior royals can sleep on board in a suitably out of the way place / while on route with minimal disruption to the public yet still arrive at the destination in time for morning engagements. 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Good hotels still need to be secure!

 

That means lots of effort and disruption for guests and staff - shutting off entire floors and rooms etc.

 

As has been explained many times the point of the Royal train is not its luxury or as as a display of superiority over others - its the fact that from a logistical point of view its very useful as senior royals can sleep on board in a suitably out of the way place / while on route with minimal disruption to the public yet still arrive at the destination in time for morning engagements. 

 

many hotels have rooms security cleared as standard... Radisson, W, Sheraton, Marriott etc often have them. its not just royals who need protection, many CEOs, sporting elites, celebrities,  with similar entourages and security requirements, to avoid corporate espionage, mad fans etc. 

Yes it might be disruptive to block a floor for a week, for a one night stay, but it happens all the time and even many mid-higher chain hotels have a few rooms equipped... its not just the Raffles and the Peninsula hotels of this world.
 

Admittedly many of the hotels outside of London do struggle on the global stage, but we have a huge volume of country houses, castles and estates of good stature, many of which are government / National Trust owned too... that is how royals used reside as guests  centuries ago, would be easier to secure, entertain and are uniquely British that few countries could match for influence.

The question for you is, if the Royal Train is so advantageous, why is-it used so infrequently, why aren't other countries using them and why aren't some companies using them ?

Even the Barnum and Baileys circus train in the US has been retired, private trains, outside of charters don't really exist any more. A few wealthy individuals own private cars in the US that they attach to Amtrak, I think the Dutch and Danish royals have a coach though that may not be used any more, I think theres a couple private cars in the UK (Mc alpines gondola has gone, LSL just got one)  but thats really about it ? .. oh I forgot about this one...

The Gadafi train...

https://www.icenews.is/2011/03/03/berlusconi-woos-gaddafi/

 

Dont get me wrong i think its a uniquely British thing we have it, and without it we lose an asset, but is an “exclusive” train the right thing in 2020, is there more economically sensible ways than maintaining a 40+ year old train, before it becomes a 60+ year old train with exclusive out of date locomotives.
 

If the mk3’s went today, and without designing a completely bespoke royal train (Astronomical in both purchase and maintenance costs), it would have to be from 2020 standard construction with custom interior fittings .. what do you have.. An Azuma, Class 195’s, 3rd rail / OH  EMUs.. theres nothing there that cuts it that can go anywhere. So next option is an older conversion.. a Royal class 159, 180, 221 ? Whilst its cheaper, its a problem deferred.. the units already at half life. The other option is keep one or two cars, and hire the VSOE, Northern Belle, LSL rake, WC Pullmans, Queen of Scots, DBS management train etc to go with it. It maintains privacy, without the cost of a whole train.

Edited December 7, 2020 by adb968008

[DavidB-AU]

It's not hard to work out the details when the media live tweet any Royal event. Likewise it's not really a secret that 67005 and 67006 are working 1Z20 Euston to Aberdeen. Took me less than a minute to find the schedule and current position of the train on social media from the other side of the planet.

 

I suspect any new Royal Train would be a bi-mode multiple unit and suitable for more than one use. See for example the Japanese E655, a luxury charter train owned by JR East which anybody with enough yen can hire. When required they add one extra coach to carry the Emperor and stick a couple of flags on the front.

 

 

Cheers

David

Edited December 7, 2020 by DavidB-AU

[beast66606]

Currently in Scotland, having breakfast, in a well known yard not too far from Whifflet.

[melmerby]

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

Admittedly many of the hotels outside of London do struggle on the global stage, but we have a huge volume of country houses, castles and estates of good stature, many of which are government / National Trust owned too...

Not sure the Government owns any country houses except official residences such as Chequers.

 

Most 'open to public' National Trust properties would be totally unsuitable as "Hotels".

(There are a few houses that are let to companies to use as hotels )

[beast66606]

Train has run ECS to Craigentinny after dropping off at a well known Scottish station which shared part of the name with a popular closed route

[dibber25]

9 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

It's not hard to work out the details when the media live tweet any Royal event. Likewise it's not really a secret that 67005 and 67006 are working 1Z20 Euston to Aberdeen. Took me less than a minute to find the schedule and current position of the train on social media from the other side of the planet.

 

I suspect any new Royal Train would be a bi-mode multiple unit and suitable for more than one use. See for example the Japanese E655, a luxury charter train owned by JR East which anybody with enough yen can hire. When required they add one extra coach to carry the Emperor and stick a couple of flags on the front.

 

 

Cheers

David

We should be very wary of driving away yet more of the uniqueness of our nation and our Royal family. The Royal Train is a useful tool for the work of the Royal family. And, of course, the fact that social media makes it so easy to breach security is actually a bad thing thing, not a benefit. The Grove and Deepdene have been a British institution since the Second World War. We already abandoned the Royal Yacht, there were groans when a new car was required and the penny-pinchers have been trying to ditch the Royal train for the past three decades at least. They'll succeed eventually, of course, but hopefully not in my lifetime. (CJL)

Edited December 7, 2020 by dibber25

[The Stationmaster]

As one of the probably very few people on RMweb who not only has in the past been involved in Royal/Special train arrangements but has even travelled on it on a couple of occasions i think there a few ideas which need to be dispelled.

 

Firstly it isn't exactly luxurious in the way that a number of trains now running round offering very expensive trips for tourists are regarded as luxurious.  The RF saloons are very well appointed but pretty plain inside and nothing like the sort of stuff you see being peddled to well heeled tourists (and I seriously doubt that they would in any case be permitted to be hired for use by anybody else).   The bulk of the vehicles are effectively no more than support vehicles and in BR days tended not to be much different from similar vehicles still in everyday service.  Hiring in a staff vehicle - as instanced in a previous post - doesn't strike me as at all odd; originally a lot of vehicles in the fleet were of exactly that sort of thing and they are the sort of vehicles which have been removed from the fleet.

 

As for use of the train it is ideally suited to tours and multi-destination jobs where it can serve as accommodation between days and it also has the great advantage of giving family members a way of arriving fairly early at destination without a very early start for an air trip or the extensive security work needed to clear something like a commercial hotel or private residence (which in the case of a hotel would undoubtedly involving closing it, or parts of it, for several days in advance thus increasing the cost.

 

The train is pretty secure in itself and is easy to keep under watch without using massive numbers of police to do so - stabling sites have always been selected with security as much in mind as other factors.  That is why we very carefully reviewed numerous aspects of  potential stabling sites before we added them to the list. (something I did jointly with police officers when looking for new sites on the BR Region where I worked).

 

The other angle which you wouldn't get with a hotel is privacy.  The number of people who know exactly where the train is going, and when, is very limited, and unlike - say - a hotel - there would normally be very few people (if any) who would even see the train arrive at a stabling site.  And even if someone should find out they would by the very nature of such sites find access difficult if not impossible.  On the other hand a couple of car loads arriving at a hotel are likely to be seen by numerous people, including others who might be staying at the hotel (unless it has been exclusively booked - at great cost).   Similarly at hotels staff security would be a special exercise for every stay and would involve a lot of work which isn't required with the train.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Having been involved in security at a hotel (party conference), I can attest to how difficult it is. Much better to park a train in an unannounced isolated location where a few policemen and others can keep an eye on it and keep other people away.

[Denbridge]

12 hours ago, melmerby said:

Two locos for security. T&T

The main reason for 2 locos is because of the lack of runround facilities across much of the network.

[stewartingram]

13 hours ago, adb968008 said:

if a Royal Yacht was used for government as well as royal business, for global business promotion, then its a good thing, as its growing the UK on a global stage.

 

However the royal train harks back to days of secure transportation vs Highwaymen, Robin Hood, Dick Turpin and who ever else could ambush a stage coach. Latterly the train was a faster medium vs cobble and mud roads. 
The UK today has good road & air transport as well as a nation of good hotels.

 

The train is probably in good condition and could well last another decade, but  mk3’s are now history, in 10 years spare parts are going to be hard to source. It will be bad news if the government is buying derelict sleepers from preserved railways to maintain the royal train... those costs are going to rise... even tonights formation has a borrowed DBS staff train sleeping coach in the formation.

 

If the 67’s end up sold on, (no suggestion they will, but 67’s arent getting the healthy revenue they should be) will they keep a dedicated royal train fleet ? That adds to the cost.. the end of EWS 47’s is why the 67’s came.

 

If they decide to buy a new Royal Train in a decade, it will need to be one of a production new build type to avoid too many one off costs, but given loco hauled has pretty much gone, so will dedicated rolling stock... it could well be a royal Multiple Unit... but bear in mind public image, only the UK, North Korea has royal train. China has a presidential train, the rest of the world has moved on to planes, cars and helicopters.

 

The UK however does have a growing market of luxury trains, which presumably could be hired, and maybe where the royal train ownership ends up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

aybe a refurbished bi-mode D78 (aka 230, 484 etc) will fulfil the purpose, the livery would suit it...

[stewartingram]

14 hours ago, dibber25 said:

But on which they couldn't work, sleep or be secure, all of which they can on the Royal Train. You get what you pay for. (CJL)

When the Queen visits Sandringham, GN (formerly FCC) allow her the private use of the 1st class section on their emu. On a 365 it was located at the end of the train, convenient for security; I'm not sure how the replacement 387s fare with the 1st class in the centre of the train though.

[adb968008]

Aberdeen theorists didnt stack up to well.

Edinburgh, Heading south.

Late running commuters maybe in for a surprise tonight in one well known city/station which often has enthusiasts hanging about is my guess. 

Worked it out, but not using social media. 
 

it is odd the huddled secrecy approach used in the UK, vs the well published approach of the US. Both approaches seem to work. Considering how many times celebs are seen on scheduled trains / planes (Including royals), it strikes as more about selected drama rather than security.

Edited December 7, 2020 by adb968008

[beast66606]

Just watched it pass Cramlington RailCam

[Oldddudders]

49 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

When the Queen visits Sandringham, GN (formerly FCC) allow her the private use of the 1st class section on their emu. On a 365 it was located at the end of the train, convenient for security; I'm not sure how the replacement 387s fare with the 1st class in the centre of the train though.

Indeed. I recall a colleague/boss telling me of the time he was working at Cambridge, probably Area Manager,  and had barely half an hour's notice that the Queen's sister would be arriving by car and would need taking care of before boarding a suitable train to London. 

[Mallard60022]

4 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Indeed. I recall a colleague/boss telling me of the time he was working at Cambridge, probably Area Manager,  and had barely half an hour's notice that the Queen's sister would be arriving by car and would need taking care of before boarding a suitable train to London. 

There is no answer to that that wouldn't get deleted by the Police.

[beast66606]

Approaching Leeds with route set to Mirfield and beyond

[Zomboid]

23 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

And of course it can take routes on which there might not be suitable booked passenger services.

I'm just imagining them and the many people who accompany them passing 45 minutes with a mediocre coffee in the pumpkin cafe at Preston waiting for a connection.

 

Yeah, not going to happen.

[25901]

adb968008, as for security you should remember a certain open day we went to with a sales stand and a couple of us had a free run of poking around the Royal train as well as the famous scoring the traverses with a transit van.

I think they make security stronger now but I still have fun with the MOD teams.

[eastwestdivide]

Hoping our Heaton Lodge Junction correspondent is on the ball today, with well-charged camera batteries.