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Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches


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1 hour ago, JohnR said:

Yes, but the point is that the Hornby lighting will not cause a drag on the coaches, whereas the Hattons one will. 

 

What is your evidence for this statement? My understanding (from the CAD) is that the Hattons carriages will have split axles with current collection through the bearings. 

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2 hours ago, JohnR said:

Yes, but the point is that the Hornby lighting will not cause a drag on the coaches, whereas the Hattons one will. 

If, as seems to be the case, the Hatton's ones have pinpoints in metal cups, there isn't any unwanted drag.

I have some Bachmann coaches with that arrangement and they are as free rolling as pinpoints running in plastic frames

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I wonder whether the "switch" for the lighting on the coaches could be mounted low down.

In which case you could have a under track magnet (maybe an switchable electro magnet?) located at the entrance/exit of storage roads.

As the rake of coaches leaves each one is switched on in turn.

As it returns each one is switched back off.

 

An alternative could be something above the track that they pass under if you use magnets for uncoupling purposes.

(maybe on the underside of an overbridge?)

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22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What is your evidence for this statement? My understanding (from the CAD) is that the Hattons carriages will have split axles with current collection through the bearings. 

 

I have no evidence - I am merely repeating what has been stated elsewhere. I was merely suggesting that some people, who would prefer the magnetic battery operated lights to those from pickups.

 

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2 hours ago, JohnR said:

I wonder how easy it will be to fit Hornby's coach lighting (that they are offering as a separate item) to a Hattons unlit coach....

More to the point, will Hattons' unlit coaches have the raised floor to accommodate the tbattery that won't be needed. Another point in favour of Hattons...

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3 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I was merely suggesting that some people, who would prefer the magnetic battery operated lights to those from pickups.

 

I'm afraid that's not what you said. You stated that the Hattons carriages (at least the lit ones) will have greater rolling resistance.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I wonder whether the "switch" for the lighting on the coaches could be mounted low down.

In which case you could have a under track magnet (maybe an switchable electro magnet?) located at the entrance/exit of storage roads.

As the rake of coaches leaves each one is switched on in turn.

As it returns each one is switched back off.

 

An alternative could be something above the track that they pass under if you use magnets for uncoupling purposes.

(maybe on the underside of an overbridge?)

Simon mentioned something like this in his video so it's certainly something Hornby thought about in terms of expanding functionality. i thought about it on my layout but i can't see into my tunnels so not much point beyound, aint that cool because i know it's doing it.

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3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm afraid that's not what you said. You stated that the Hattons carriages (at least the lit ones) will have greater rolling resistance.

 

 

 

I dont want to have an argument about something as silly as this. People can see what I said, and make their own mind up. If you're not happy with my clarification, I'm afraid I cant do much about that.

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I would confirm the comments about rolling resistance on Hornby design clever items; I have a Southern BY and an LNER Long CCT of this type.  They do not run as well as my other stock, and I have had problems with the CCT to the extent that I have retired it from service and will eventually replace it with a Parkside.  The BY is ok, and it is sometimes an advantage to have a vehicle with a little bit of drag even if you think your layout is flat... 

 

Hornby's  point that lighting pickups cause drag is valid, but they have negated it a little by using design clever wheelsets on the 6 wheelers.  If Hattons are using split axle pickup, their lit coachs should run as freely as the unlit ones,  It is I think worth mentioning that many of these coaches, especially the 6 wheelers, would have been used on top link work when they were new, and pulled by the most powerful locos of their day.  We are talking Stirling singles and LNW Precedents as examples that are available or pending in RTR.  We think of them in their latter days, as they spent much of their lives on branch and secondary work being cascaded to it when bogie stock was introduced.  Bogie stock  was introduced pretty much across the board, finding it's way on to high density suburban work rapidly, cascading the earlier coaches to branches , where they were hauled by small locos in many cases. 

 

OTOH, some branches used cascaded locos as well (the GER 2-4-0s come to mind), so the situation is not just 4 and 6 wheelers hauled by Terriers, P, or GW Metros. 

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Whilst those are self-evidently the right buffers for that carriage, they are untypical of late 19th century carriage buffers. 

 

They also aren't concave, they are early Stroudley pattern buffers, with the drawings for them dating from 1873. they are well documented, and have flat heads, the edges are curved giving the lighting effect in the photo.

 

Available as a whitemetal part from 5&9 models, without the concave for anyone wanting Stroudley pattern buffers on their coaches.

 

It's a shame Hornby seem to have been extremely lazy with the research on these. Drawings for the buffers can be seen in print in LB&SCR Carriages Volume 3 page 200 (supplements to volumes 1 and 2) The drawing in the book is copied from from the 1873 GA for D34/147 carriages (Reproduced in The Engineer)

 

Gary

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15 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

It's a shame Hornby seem to have been extremely lazy with the research on these.

 

I wonder if perhaps they have been in a cleft stick of their own making. Not having the in-house capacity to do the detailed research, their "late stage announcement" approach has precluded drawing on the pool of free advice from which Hattons has benefitted. They may also have felt that from the point of view of commercial confidentiality, they couldn't approach people already seen to be co-operating with Hattons.

 

But I should emphasise that that's just another example of the speculation which is the life and soul of this thread!

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5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I wonder if perhaps they have been in a cleft stick of their own making. Not having the in-house capacity to do the detailed research, their "late stage announcement" approach has precluded drawing on the pool of free advice from which Hattons has benefitted. They may also have felt that from the point of view of commercial confidentiality, they couldn't approach people already seen to be co-operating with Hattons.

 

But I should emphasise that that's just another example of the speculation which is the life and soul of this thread!

 

I agree, the "late stage announcement" seems to have hurt these offerings, and letting things that could have been corrected slip through, even more of a shame is based on the prototypes they seem to be based on, and the picture offered to justify the buffers, it looks very much like Hornby's research team have copies of LB&SCR Carriages Volumes 1 and 2 in the office.

 

This is also an example of the speculation that this thread seems to feed on.

 

Gary

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1 minute ago, Coach bogie said:

Some of them have been released as discussed a page or so ago. Think its LNER and BR so far

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2 minutes ago, Coach bogie said:

Some versions are in the shops now, one is on its way to me.

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1 hour ago, BlueLightning said:

 

They also aren't concave, they are early Stroudley pattern buffers, with the drawings for them dating from 1873. they are well documented, and have flat heads, the edges are curved giving the lighting effect in the photo.

 

Do concave buffers exist anywhere? I'm struggling to find a reason why they would.

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3 minutes ago, 30801 said:

Do concave buffers exist anywhere? I'm struggling to find a reason why they would.

 

In the mind of someone at Hornby. There was a vogue for having one convex and one flat buffer face - I think I read that the NBR went in for this at one time - there was a good reason (which I can't remember) but not good enough for the practice to become universal or to persist into the 20th century.

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6 hours ago, Forward! said:

 

I have been known to dabble in a bit of scratchbuilding, but you've got to admit, pre-group modellers are a distinct minority in the hobby.  So in that sense, yes, we are abnormal! It's not a bad thing as every hobby has niche interests, but the advent in 2021 of being able to make up a generally quite plausible early C20 train using modern rtr products can only help broaden participation in modelling this fascinating period of British railway history. And ultimately, that's the only way our hobby survives and indeed grows.

 

Will

 

Will, I don't think that modelling pre-group railways will increase significantly unless there are a lot more RTR products available. Those that have expressed interest in these generic coaches are only moving to pre-group because these are finished products which haven't been previously available in a wide range of Victorian and Edwardian liveries.

 

5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Some people just like to do things the hard way.....

 

If r-t-r pre-grouping just becomes too commonplace, they'll just migrate to 3mm or S Scale....

 

:angel:

 

John

 

John,

for whatever reason, most pre-group modellers I know chose to go that route, not because it was uncommon, but because they were interested in the particular railway, period, etc. and were happy to build kits because that was the only way to achieve what they wanted. If pre-group modelling becomes common place I'll still continue to model the LNWR because I enjoy researching the Premier Line, building kits, etc.

It'll be a very long time before the RTR manufacturers will ever reach the variety of models I can buy for the LNWR from the kit producers. There are about 30 loco kits available, around 80 carriage kits  and some 25 wagon kits from various suppliers. That is just for different prototypes, quite a few are available in different formats (etched, white metal, 3d printed, cast resin).

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2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

More to the point, will Hattons' unlit coaches have the raised floor to accommodate the tbattery that won't be needed. Another point in favour of Hattons...

It’s likely the battery will be able to be fitted to the roof, much less likely to be seen.....it’s not often we look “up into” our carriages.

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Something is puzzling me. To me the least convincing of these is the 4-wheel all brake. It's too long to compared to the prototype it's loosely based on, and the panelling is wrong for most other railways. And yet it is proving very popular with buyers. Derails have sold out of the ones they had, and at Kernow the GWR version is the best seller this week (pre-orders). There's no accounting for taste it seems.

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20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

In the mind of someone at Hornby. There was a vogue for having one convex and one flat buffer face - I think I read that the NBR went in for this at one time - there was a good reason (which I can't remember) but not good enough for the practice to become universal or to persist into the 20th century.

Still in use on the continent, I believe - the idea is that two convex buffers, non-concentric, when pushed together develop a sideways (or vertical, depending on the direction in which they're offset) force. The idea of one flat and one concave was to provide the benefits of a concave buffer (meeting correctly at slight angles due to curves in the track) without that

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6 minutes ago, Nile said:

Something is puzzling me. To me the least convincing of these is the 4-wheel all brake. It's too long to compared to the prototype it's loosely based on, and the panelling is wrong for most other railways. And yet it is proving very popular with buyers. Derails have sold out of the ones they had, and at Kernow the GWR version is the best seller this week (pre-orders). There's no accounting for taste it seems.

If your not a rivet counter its a very useful vehicle. Often used for things such as fruit and fish traffic and many lasted for a long time as tool vans etc.

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7 hours ago, Roddy Angus said:

But that would be illogical.  Would Hornby not continue to produce the Stroudley coaches and then produce a more generalised model based on the Stroudley for other liveries? 

 

 

No its not.

 

Producing two sets of tooling (one 'Stroudley' and one 'generic') doesn't come cheap these days!

 

Thats two sets of tooling when the vast majority of the market will be quite happy with a 'inspired by' variant suitably painted*.

 

Hattons have shown that there is a large market out there for factious models (albut 'inspired by' the genuine articles) nicely painted so Hornby know that is going to be a very promising avenue to explore. By contrast the number of folk looking specifically for authentic Stroudley stock is going to be far smaller.

 

Therefore if you are Hornby and a competitor shows there is a big demand for generic / fictitious 4 / 6 wheeled stock but you already have a Stroudley coach project underway, it actually makes perfect business sense to change tack and alter your project to take advantage of the apparent demand for pre-grouping 4 / 6 wheeled stock by re-focusing your project particularly if you can bring your product to market first and thus scoup up orders from those unwilling to wait.

 

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