Hornby Announce L&MR 0-4-2 "Lion"?

[PaulRhB]

There may have been a leak about others intentions but Hornby did announce first, whether that’s because they asked about the license and were told someone else had it?

Anyway people were suggesting Lion next for Hornby from 6th Jan 20 in the Rocket topic as Mel did here  . . .

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

8 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

There may have been a leak about others intentions but Hornby did announce first, whether that’s because they asked about the license and were told someone else had it?

Anyway people were suggesting Lion next for Hornby from 6th Jan 20 in the Rocket topic as Mel did here  . . .

 

 

 

 

Indeed, to be fair to Copy-Cat Kohler on this occasion, Lion was a natural progression, and I recall picking up on hints at Lion at the time the L&M open coaches were announced. 

 

But Hornby has too much form to expect to escape satire.  

[Butler Henderson]

Back to the models themselves whichever is the winner will partly be down to how the pipework atop the firebox is dealt with given in particular Hornbys habit of using  plastic for such which is often also too brittle. A solution could be to have the firebox lift off leaving a relatively flush boiler top height making any upside down work simpler.

[Legend]

What struck me in the interview was the skirting around of the issue . Not evasive, as such, just economical with some of his statements .Had he said we planned it but then heard someone else was doing it , so thought we had better make an announcement , then that would have been plausible . But there was no such admission . In fact there was no acknowledgement that anyone else was interested in making the model , only that someone had leaked information Hornby were making it.  Also when asked about the Titfield Thunderbolt all he said was...well we did that 10 years ago . No reference at all to someone else maybe having the rights .

 

There is a part of me that still thinks the Rapido announcement is an elaborate hoax . If it is a hoax I think it'll backfire as they wont endear themselves to enthusiasts who will think they've been made an (April) Fool of. 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Legend

[Edwardian]

28 minutes ago, Legend said:

What struck me in the interview was the skirting around of the issue . Not evasive, as such, just economical with some of his statements .Had he said we planned it but then heard someone else was doing it , so thought we had better make an announcement , then that would have been plausible . But there was no such admission . In fact there was no acknowledgement that anyone else was interested in making the model , only that someone had leaked information Hornby were making it.  Also when asked about the Titfield Thunderbolt all he said was...well we did that 10 years ago . No reference at all to someone else maybe having the rights .

 

There is a part of me that still thinks the Rapido announcement is an elaborate hoax . If it is a hoax I think it'll backfire as they wont endear themselves to enthusiasts who will think they've been made an (April) Fool of. 

 

 

 

I think that's a pretty fair summary of the interview, but I don't share your view that the Rapido announcement is likely to prove a hoax.

 

It was a very odd interview. If the effect aimed at was masterly inscrutability, what came out instead was a rambling, confused and unreliable narration. I kept thinking 'give me 5 minutes cross examination in the witness box ....'

[wainwright1]

There are still plenty more L & M and other early railway locomotive and rolling stock fish in the sea, so bring them on. Certainly some more L & M coaches and wagons would be nice.

 

On a different thread, looking at Lion/Thunderbolt, it looks like there is more space available for the DCC socket and possibly a small speaker for sound, not to mention a decent plug and socket between the loco and tender.

 

All the best and happy modelling.

Ray

[Compound2632]

Everything done or announced so far - Rocket, the two types of carriages and Lion - are models of modern (i.e. 1930+) replicas or reconstructions* of L&M stock. To venture further into authentic L&M or other very early stock would involve considerable research and a liberal amount of speculation. My suspicion is that if Hornby are to continue in this vein they will do more models of extant items - possibly some of the S&D &c locomotives or maybe moving onward to Cornwall or Furness Railway No. 3 - maybe a latter-day Milestones series?

 

*Acknowledging that Lion is Lion, it nevertheless appears to be the case that it didn't attain its present appearance until its 1928 restoration.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Everything done or announced so far - Rocket, the two types of carriages and Lion - are models of modern (i.e. 1930+) replicas or reconstructions* of L&M stock. To venture further into authentic L&M or other very early stock would involve considerable research and a liberal amount of speculation. My suspicion is that if Hornby are to continue in this vein they will do more models of extant items - possibly some of the S&D &c locomotives or maybe moving onward to Cornwall or Furness Railway No. 3 - maybe a latter-day Milestones series?

 

*Acknowledging that Lion is Lion, it nevertheless appears to be the case that it didn't attain its present appearance until its 1928 restoration.

 

The sets announced include open carriage trucks and the Royal Mail coach.  These are essentially hybrids, portraying things seen in the Ackermann published prints and not made in modern full-size replica, but using the 1930s replica as the underframe.

 

That is not a criticism. That is a sensible thing to do. I would have done it that way. Rather, it's just to point out that announcements have already gone beyond the rolling stock built in the 1930s.

 

I suspect it would take the portrayal of a fresh company for us to see models based on actual artifacts of the time and/or illustrations, rather than based upon replicas, which may be ahistorical to an extent. 

 

I'd like to see the London and Birmingham, or, especially, the Newcastle & Carlisle, tackled. The S&D must be the obvious choice, however, and that I would love to see. 

 

 

[Fireline]

3 hours ago, Legend said:

There is a part of me that still thinks the Rapido announcement is an elaborate hoax . If it is a hoax I think it'll backfire as they wont endear themselves to enthusiasts who will think they've been made an (April) Fool of. 

 

 

 

It's not only a dollar that doesn't come for free. Rapido gaining the rights to the Titfield Thunderbolt will have had a cost implication. In the current economy, I wouldn't be paying out for rights I had no intention of using, even if it did spite a competitor. Rapido are trying to grow, and move into the UK market. Knowing their UK development man, I doubt he would want to explain that his first investment was a dead loss.

[PaulRhB]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

To venture further into authentic L&M or other very early stock would involve considerable research and a liberal amount of speculation.

I suspect more speculation than results of research  Unless there’s an as yet undiscovered set of drawings I think we only have the various etchings and drawings to pull together likely stock. So is a generic model based on those, with the ethos of the ‘Stroudleys’ any better than the 30’s replicas they already have? 

Considering Rockets tender was basically a converted open goods wagon according to contemporary accounts surely that would be a good starting point for another wagon?

What we need is a better coupling though as the current ones are only any use for fixed sets  

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Considering Rockets tender was basically a converted open goods wagon according to contemporary accounts surely that would be a good starting point for another wagon?

 

What is the source of that statement? According to Geoffrey Hill's The Worsdells: an engineering dynasty, the tender was specially constructed to the designs of T. C. Worsdell in the L&M Crown Street works.

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What is the source of that statement? According to Geoffrey Hill's The Worsdells: an engineering dynasty, the tender was specially constructed to the designs of T. C. Worsdell in the L&M Crown Street works.

Yes they were a standard tender as you say for the trials likely supplied by Thomas Worsdell, according to the Bailey & Glithero book, who had also supplied the early carriages, so from that would we assume it’s a shortened coach chassis turned into a tender?  There’s a description somewhere I can’t find describing the tender as an open wagon painted green at the L&M opening too. Richard Gibbons Rocket and the Rainhill Trials book has a modern image he admits is incorrect of Rocket on its cover, in addition it has a rake of wagons identical to the tender! Inside the book more reliable contemporary pictures by Charles Vignoles show a longer open wagon panelled in the same style as Rocket and Sans Pareil’s tenders. Then there’s an engraving of Rocket running pre opening trains in Olive Mount cutting showing a series of open wagons shorter than Rockets tender with neither tender or wagons showing any external ribs! So two contemporary pictures suggest two different size wagons at the trial and on the L&M both longer and shorter than the tenders supplied and I’d consider them unreliable as drawings. 
T Donaghy’s book L&M Rly operations, has another engraving of a flat wagon with spindly frames and various others showing larger wheeled tenders and wagons suggesting the wheels were the same size as the tenders but the tender is inconsistent with the engravings of Rocket we know to be basically accurate. On the wagons they are described as ‘merely of a heavy floor laid on two sets of *trucks* with very small wheels. No springs were used and the wagons were of the crudest possible construction’. (* axles?)

My point is the tender is basically another coal and water carrying open wagon albeit converted by removing one end and there are at least two different contemporary pictures of the tender so why should the wagon images be any more reliable? The Gibbons book relates contemporary accounts of Rocket pulling demonstration trains shown in the engraving with bench seats said to be in the open wagons. Whether the wagons were identical to the tenders is impossible to tell from the engravings and it’s likely the contractor wagons were different again to those supplied for coal traffic, or were the contractors wagons kept and supplemented by more longer wagons? 
The other surviving records I’ve seen published only list costs of stock and no detail of dimensions. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by PaulRhB

[PaulRhB]

This image should be ok as they are all over 150 years old. Note different frames, bodies inside wheels and different panelling. Matching these to the descriptions I’ve found is impossible let alone making an accurate model. The lowest image is the closest to the known accurate images of Rocket, compared to the loco itself, but are they stretched or were they built longer by the time of the second batch of improved Rockets?

Edited March 15, 2021 by PaulRhB

[D9020 Nimbus]

6 hours ago, Legend said:

What struck me in the interview was the skirting around of the issue

Not just this interview,  there seems to be a reluctance in the model press in this country to admit that some prototypes have been made by more than one company. The interview with Ben Jones didn't mention that late-body class 25s were also promised by SLW and Bachmann. Nor did the interviews with Dapol or Accurascale mention the "other" Manor — and yet it would be an obvious question to ask.

 

This attitude seems to be confined to the UK. It goes back to when RM used to refer to "The Trade" in sort of awed tones. And then there are those who have moved from the model railway press into manufacturing companies — Ben Jones, Richard Foster. Also two magazines are owned by a manufacturer, and another bears the name of a manufacturer who doesn't own it, though they seem to have a "special relationship". This just isn't the case in other countries — even in the US, where Model Railroader and  Walthers are based in the same city.

[MyRule1]

8 hours ago, Edwardian said:

It was a very odd interview. If the effect aimed at was masterly inscrutability, what came out instead was a rambling, confused and unreliable narration.

Even more so it you rely on YouTubes closed caption facility. It decided that Simon Kohler was Heer Kohler and translated it into Dutch. This facility seems to have been lost if you play it from the Souvenir Guide.

[PhilJ W]

4 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Also two magazines are owned by a manufacturer, and another bears the name of a manufacturer who doesn't own it, though they seem to have a "special relationship". This just isn't the case in other countries — even in the US, where Model Railroader and  Walthers are based in the same city.

When the society to which I belong had Simon Kolner as guest speaker back in 2019 he told us that the publishers had approached Hornby for permission to use the name. Permission was granted and royalties changed hands (and still do).

Edited March 15, 2021 by PhilJ W

[PaulRhB]

4 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

and yet it would be an obvious question to ask.

 

This attitude seems to be confined to the UK.

And what do you expect them to say about a competitor, start promoting them or just say ours is better?

It’s a fairly pointless question because if you attack them then it starts a negative publicity battle and we’ve seen how toxic that gets once in model railways and all the time in politics! So Peco as a manufacturer wants a good relationship and tries to avoid stepping on toes in the magazine because many of the staff are friends from the exhibition circuit and as we’ve seen with the 009 range they can then work with Heljan and Bachmann to the benefit of all three and the consumer. 
Peco’s reviews are accused of being cosy but I’ve always found them fair and diplomatic about errors if you read them fully. 
If Andy and the BRM staff go after the jugular like Newsnight who’s going to volunteer to get a grilling when they can put a controlled positive message out on other media channels? Things like the virtual show are about promoting the hobby not sowing doubt and dissension, social media rants manage that while the professionals look at the bigger picture. 

[Legend]

But the thing is discussions that avoid the key issue aren't really meaningful at all .  

Edited March 16, 2021 by Legend
poor grammar

[PaulRhB]

5 minutes ago, Legend said:

But the thing is discussions that avoid the key issue isn’t really meaningful at all .  

Like most of a forum thread?  

 

Why is it a key issue? Apart from it ‘not being cricket’ it’s actually irrelevant to the models. The first ‘gazump’ technically was Bachmann announcing the Blue Pullman over the Olivias / Heljan but they had been working on it for some time as I knew someone involved who told the story that weekend. So we saw Hornby losing it’s way and wanted them to be more dynamic and it’s fighting back with a vengeance following the common bold / aggressive stance of a big brand. It happens in all other markets and jobs are at stake as Hornby has shareholders wanting returns or they’ll pull the plug. The gloves are off a bit more but as Hornby has technically gone under a couple of times already in its history and merged into others but kept the brand can you blame the management for jumping in to compete with these smaller dynamic companies coming on the scene? 
If you don’t react they take your models and you slowly fade away, if you do then we get upset for the smaller guy. To be honest this is a much nicer way to do it than the way the 91 was announced so late in the day for Cavalex and Hornby are turning on the taps and producing good models faster, as we saw with the Terrier. 
The market is getting crowded so competition has heated up as they all want to survive, we don’t need a tv reality show to go with it. The bit we got with the tv programme about Hornby, Hattons and Rails was enough of a taster of that. 
 

Getting back to the model, is there any evidence for why the firebox cover was done that way on restoration? Was it a total flight of fancy or based on some evidence of a more elaborate cover? Are there any contemporary engravings featuring the loco that suggest a more closely fitting cover? Elaborate decoration wasn’t unknown and it could have been done to make it look more impressive. 

[PhilJ W]

As I see it Hornby are going to produce a model of Lion and Rapido are going to produce a model of the Titfield Thunderbolt. No doubt each model will have its pros and cons and when and if they both become available purchasers can make their own minds up to which model to choose by their own criteria. I do get the impression that there is a 'lets bash Hornby' element similar in a way that British Leyland was bashed and we all know what happened to BL. What we have here are two models of the same prototype aimed at different audiences which is far better than no models at all.

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Not just this interview,  there seems to be a reluctance in the model press in this country to admit that some prototypes have been made by more than one company. The interview with Ben Jones didn't mention that late-body class 25s were also promised by SLW and Bachmann. Nor did the interviews with Dapol or Accurascale mention the "other" Manor — and yet it would be an obvious question to ask.

 

This attitude seems to be confined to the UK. It goes back to when RM used to refer to "The Trade" in sort of awed tones. And then there are those who have moved from the model railway press into manufacturing companies — Ben Jones, Richard Foster. Also two magazines are owned by a manufacturer, and another bears the name of a manufacturer who doesn't own it, though they seem to have a "special relationship". This just isn't the case in other countries — even in the US, where Model Railroader and  Walthers are based in the same city.

Railway Modeller is obviously owned by a manufacturer and has been for many years but its reviews nowadays  barely compare - except in the title  - with the sort of 'reviews' it used to do years ago.  Hornby magazine's situation - as explained by PhilJW - has been mentioned on RMweb at various times in the past - all they are using is the name.  

 

What puzzles me though is the comment that a second magazine is 'owned by a manufacturer' as I can't immediately think of one.   Both BRM and MR are owned by major magazine publishing houses which both produce a wide range of titles that have nothing to do with model railways while MRJ remains wholly independently owned.   Is there another one I've never heard ofAre Dapol or Bachmann or a.n.other now surreptitiously publishing model railway magazines?  Please let us know as it is a fascinating revelation.

[Miss Prism]

I looked on Youtube for the Simon Kohler interview but couldn't find it. Anyone got a link?

[Graham_Muz]

14 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

What puzzles me though is the comment that a second magazine is 'owned by a manufacturer' as I can't immediately think of one.   Both BRM and MR are owned by major magazine publishing houses which both produce a wide range of titles that have nothing to do with model railways while MRJ remains wholly independently owned.   Is there another one I've never heard ofAre Dapol or Bachmann or a.n.other now surreptitiously publishing model railway magazines?  Please let us know as it is a fascinating revelation.

 

Mike

 

I assume it refers to both Railway Modeller and Continental Modeller being both under Peco stable. 

[The Stationmaster]

3 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

As I see it Hornby are going to produce a model of Lion and Rapido are going to produce a model of the Titfield Thunderbolt. No doubt each model will have its pros and cons and when and if they both become available purchasers can make their own minds up to which model to choose by their own criteria. I do get the impression that there is a 'lets bash Hornby' element similar in a way that British Leyland was bashed and we all know what happened to BL. What we have here are two models of the same prototype aimed at different audiences which is far better than no models at all.

In many respects I agree with you Phil - we will have a choice of two different models which should actually be of slightly different things and the choice is ours.  Unfortunately they might impinge on each other's markets to the extent that they squeeze each but the sort of person who buys Hornby will in many respect be buying for different reasons from those who buy Rapido.  However both will be competing for a slice of the overall model railway spend in Britain.

 

But I'm not surprised at the reaction to Hornby's behaviour in this instance.  While 'Lion' must undoubtedly have been on their list for the future (I even expected it for 2021 and hinted that way on RMweb) their recent copycat announcements have tended to give them a reputation.  Such reputations are easily earned, especially when very obviously directed at commissioned models from retailers who were seeking to broaden their business base through investment in the hobby in, frequently, non-mainstream ideas.  Once you get that reputation, especially if you joyously splash it all over a tv documentary as happened with the Terrier, the reputation is formed.  Once you've got a particular reputation it can be awfully hard to shake it off and you will be tarred with the same brush when something like this happens - particularly if you make what is for you, a rather unusual form of annoucement as happened this time.

 

Hornby won't mind - they'll brush it aside because what matters to them is their bottom line and making things which sell at a profit.  And the folk who see this happening and give Hornby this reputation are but a small part of their overall market.  So no problem - in unless it stifles innovation on the part of others, which it might.

[PaulRhB]

6 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

I looked on Youtube for the Simon Kohler interview but couldn't find it. Anyone got a link?

Afraid it’s gone as it’s now offered as a digital download

https://pocketmags.com/british-railway-modelling-magazine/souvenir-guide?_ccCt=IfCNvdGC3X~f_pNnGj2WV~GExThh74lSbkEertwE5tyuifLodqG4ue~gqpRqXqVn