Toying with an Industrial layout shelf

[ManofKent]

I got distracted from Killinish Pier by the cakebox challenge, and revisiting it there's a couple of layout issues I need to resolve that will need a ponder. It's far from abandoned, but put aside for the moment. The cakebox challenge also made me realise how much I need to practice modelling techniques, so I thought I'd do something small scale first.

 

About the only space I can think of is an alcove approx 840mm long and 220mm deep so small... I acquired a Peckett a while back and just got tempted by a Ruston 48ds another member had for sale  so a small industrial layout seemed like a good place to play.

 

Mucking about in AnyRail  - I came up with the following - essentially a 3,2,2 simplified inglenook at the top with a switchback giving access to a tiny shed and fueling point.

 

Too much in a small space or doable? The corner would be tunnel/bridge scenic blocker, brown box some simple representation of appropriate industry e.g. aggregate piles, stacked timber or whatever I go with. Purple line very low wall fence .

 

Thoughts appreciated.

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Hi there.  An interesting proposition!  I think this could be one of those situations where the way things look in Anyrail may not tell you everything you may want to know.  My suggestion would be to print out some Peco point templates (unless you have the points already) and lay it all out full size, perhaps even with some mock-up card buildings as well, and place your locos on the track to see how it looks.  In this tiny space, little details such as what you use as a buffer stop on the minimal switchback track could make a critical difference to whether or not it all works.  Also be worth trying a couple of wagons - the type and size of the couplings you use could also be significant.  Are you thinking of ballasted or inset track?  It can change the appearance quite dramatically (find some photos of a minimum space Scalescenes box file layout).  Just some thoughts, hope they help, Keith.

[marc smith]

Hi @ManofKent, as Keith says above - it's always well worth getting some point templates, a loco and a couple of wagons - 
always best to check clearances and siding / headshunt length before you start laying any track.
I always draw the plan on the back of some leftover wallpaper (or a piece of lining paper)
I'm sure Mrs S thinks I'm mad - as I shift wagons back & forth, and generally make sure everything works and all the movements I might want are possible
Playing trains..... and I haven't even got any track! lol

You really don't want to get half way through your build, only to find you can't do the manouvres you were aiming to do, or that wagon will only clear the headshunt with that one loco... or that slightly longer wagon doesn't fit.... etc etc.

The plan looks good though. Those Peco short radius Y points are a real boon for space starved modellers. My suggestion would be to move that first point on the left hand side, just a little further to the right, to ensure more clearance. Are you allowing for an added cassette at the entrance to the layout?

You might also think about a 3-way point, instead of the two points at the back - that way, you'd end up with slightly longer sidings. Of course, some folk don't like 3-ways.... they are a tad trickier to wire, and a tad trickier to see which road you've selected, especially if there's something like a wall in the way.

I probably wouldn't place a tunnel at the entrance to the layout. You might find the loco shed in the foreground acts as the perfect view-blocker on its' own, alternatively there are lots of warehouse type buildings you could use rather than a tunnel.

Let us know how you get on. Looking forward to seeing what you opt for.

My own thoughts on building a layout into a pre-defined space, are that this can really help to focus your mind and your plans. All too often, at the doodling stage, we are tempted to add another siding, tack an extra piece of baseboard on the end etc etc. Best of luck with it

[ManofKent]

1 hour ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Hi there.  An interesting proposition!  I think this could be one of those situations where the way things look in Anyrail may not tell you everything you may want to know.  My suggestion would be to print out some Peco point templates (unless you have the points already) and lay it all out full size, perhaps even with some mock-up card buildings as well, and place your locos on the track to see how it looks.  In this tiny space, little details such as what you use as a buffer stop on the minimal switchback track could make a critical difference to whether or not it all works.  Also be worth trying a couple of wagons - the type and size of the couplings you use could also be significant.  Are you thinking of ballasted or inset track?  It can change the appearance quite dramatically (find some photos of a minimum space Scalescenes box file layout).  Just some thoughts, hope they help, Keith.

 

Thanks - I think getting a board and playing full size might be best . It's effectively tiny single loco operation, probably with five short open wagons.  I need to think more about what industry it represents and how urban the setting is for whether to go ballast / inset or a mix.

 

Richard

[ManofKent]

38 minutes ago, marc smith said:

---

The plan looks good though. Those Peco short radius Y points are a real boon for space starved modellers. My suggestion would be to move that first point on the left hand side, just a little further to the right, to ensure more clearance. Are you allowing for an added cassette at the entrance to the layout?

You might also think about a 3-way point, instead of the two points at the back - that way, you'd end up with slightly longer sidings. Of course, some folk don't like 3-ways.... they are a tad trickier to wire, and a tad trickier to see which road you've selected, especially if there's something like a wall in the way.

I probably wouldn't place a tunnel at the entrance to the layout. You might find the loco shed in the foreground acts as the perfect view-blocker on its' own, alternatively there are lots of warehouse type buildings you could use rather than a tunnel.

Let us know how you get on. Looking forward to seeing what you opt for.

My own thoughts on building a layout into a pre-defined space, are that this can really help to focus your mind and your plans. All too often, at the doodling stage, we are tempted to add another siding, tack an extra piece of baseboard on the end etc etc. Best of luck with it

Thanks

 

No cassette - I want it self-contained.  I might need to move the first point slightly, but it only needs to allow an unaccompanied Ioco to swap from the shed branch to the sidings. I'm hoping the Peckett and Ruston cope with the Ys without stalling... I  looked at the 3-way option but if I'm keeping it as shunting puzzle I need to restrict the length of  the sidings (and headshunt) anyway (it does raise the question of whether a two wagon siding looks plausible though...).  

[Karl]

I agree with those above saying if you haven't got the point print the free drawings off them out and use them. I can be surprisingly what doesn't fit that you thought would. I use the Y-points a lot (electrofrog) and have no issues with the Peckett 0-4-0 and Ruston 48DS running through them. It is the Peckett 0-6-0's I have lots of issues with, the ones I've had don't seem to like ballasted track. Whether the flanges are larger than on the 0-4-0's I don't know.

[ManofKent]

9 minutes ago, Karl said:

I agree with those above saying if you haven't got the point print the free drawings off them out and use them. I can be surprisingly what doesn't fit that you thought would. I use the Y-points a lot (electrofrog) and have no issues with the Peckett 0-4-0 and Ruston 48DS running through them. It is the Peckett 0-6-0's I have lots of issues with, the ones I've had don't seem to like ballasted track. Whether the flanges are larger than on the 0-4-0's I don't know.

 

Thanks - I've got a set of insulfrog ones I can use to draw a template from (no printer!). 

 

I was thinking of using a simple pine shelf, but having used 10mm Foamex for the Cakebox challenge and seen how rigid it is I'm tempted to use that again, with strips of the same thickness bracing it. Lightweight and portable enough to bring downstairs from the corner of the home office.

 

I've ordered a couple of south based industrial railway picture books for ideas (whilst my wife might disagree - you can't have too many railway books). I'm not planning on reproducing an exact model of a prototype but I'd like it to look plausible. There's less industry in Kent today, but I grew up with coalfields, quarries, paper mills etc.

[Karl]

That's a good idea to make a template with one. It just helps proves a theory as sometime trackplans drawn on a computer work well but in practice you find curves just don't work. Hopefully you find it works as the trackplan looks simple yet plenty to play with. I've never used foam board so I can't comment. I've found the Scale Model Scenery baseboards to be very good but they're either 9cm too short for you or about 30cm too long.

 

If you're looking for industrial books have you tried Gordon Edgar's he has one for nearly every region https://www.amberley-books.com/community-gordon-edgar, and incidentally is a lovely bloke!

[Multigauge]

I'm planning a similar small, light industrial/urban based layout for my Peckett.

I've just finished building my baseboard and I'm playing with various track layouts using wagons and buildings to fully appreciate the space. I like using small Y's and have no issues with stalling on Badsworth Rd which has 2. 

Watching this develop with interest.

[ManofKent]

10 hours ago, Karl said:

 

 

If you're looking for industrial books have you tried Gordon Edgar's he has one for nearly every region https://www.amberley-books.com/community-gordon-edgar, and incidentally is a lovely bloke!

Thanks - I've ordered the London one and the Eastern one, but struggling to find the South one listed as available anywhere.

[ManofKent]

5 hours ago, Multigauge said:

I'm planning a similar small, light industrial/urban based layout for my Peckett.

I've just finished building my baseboard and I'm playing with various track layouts using wagons and buildings to fully appreciate the space. I like using small Y's and have no issues with stalling on Badsworth Rd which has 2. 

Watching this develop with interest.

Thanks for the confirmation on the Y's - are they insulfrog or electrofrog. I'm looking at plain DC and simple wiring.

[marc smith]

22 hours ago, ManofKent said:

No cassette - I want it self-contained.  I might need to move the first point slightly, but it only needs to allow an unaccompanied Ioco to swap from the shed branch to the sidings. I'm hoping the Peckett and Ruston cope with the Ys without stalling... I  looked at the 3-way option but if I'm keeping it as shunting puzzle I need to restrict the length of  the sidings (and headshunt) anyway (it does raise the question of whether a two wagon siding looks plausible though...).  

Hi again @ManofKent

Fair enough re the clearances for your proposed locos. However, at some point in the future, you may fancy trying a different loco, perhaps an 08 or 03 shunter, or a Jinty? Of course, you may have already dismissed such options. I do think though, that some sidings & headshunts can just "look" too short to the onlooker....

Again, that also depends on the surroundings, the buildings, scenery and the overall setting. When I first saw your plan, I was picturing an occasional wagon of coal arriving, as supply for the loco shed - just for an added manouvre and something different. You could still achieve this, using two locos of course.

Looking at the plan again, I'd be tempted to lengthen the siding at the rear, and maybe model it running in to a warehouse or factory. So if you were ever tempted to exhibit this layout, you could load or unload a wagon. Again, that's just a suggestion though - but you must forgive me.... I'm always looking at adding occasional and alternative movements or operations. You never know - you might end up getting invitations to exhibit this layout, and that's something I'd recommend every model railway builder do, at least once or twice - it's good to see RMweb members projects "in the flesh".

Cheers, and again - best of luck with it. I'm eagerly awaiting seeing this progress

EDIT: I meant to add that 2 wagon length sidings do tend to look short - but again, depending on the setting and overall design, they can be made to look perfectly plausible.

Edited April 8, 2021 by marc smith

[ManofKent]

9 hours ago, marc smith said:

Hi again @ManofKent

Fair enough re the clearances for your proposed locos. However, at some point in the future, you may fancy trying a different loco, perhaps an 08 or 03 shunter, or a Jinty? Of course, you may have already dismissed such options. I do think though, that some sidings & headshunts can just "look" too short to the onlooker....
 

Thanks Marc - 08's are those things with two too many wheels aren't they?

 

I think expanding the initial run to allow a hauled wagon at least does make sense if the space fits. I've probably got too tied up in trying to create siding lengths that conform to the 3,2,2 shunting puzzle and not enough on overall aesthetics. 

 

I need to think about the operation though (never my strongest interest, but others like it...). Thinking of trying Kaydees with an uncoupler at the head of the three sidings. Then there's point control - hand of god or wire in tube... Then there's the setting - any of the Kent cement works is a possibility, but weathering is boring (basically spray everything while). 

 

Lots to think about, but at least a board is ordered.

[steve1]

You might want to consider this as a reference book:

 

https://wildswanbooks.co.uk/Books/Slough-Estates-Railway.htm

 

Plus, the latest is of Railway Modeller has an Industrial Modelling supplement.

 

steve

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by steve1
Extra info

[sb67]

Nice project ManofKent, looking forward to seeing some more.  I've built a very small layout for my ruston using an electrofrog Y and small radius point and have no problems with running. I agree with the comments about full size testing and I'd personally go for wire in tube or point roding.

You'll enjoy those Gordon Edgar books for inspiration, have you also seen the industrial threads on here as well? 

[Multigauge]

17 hours ago, ManofKent said:

Thanks for the confirmation on the Y's - are they insulfrog or electrofrog. I'm looking at plain DC and simple wiring.

Electrofrog with very simple DC wiring. 

I've also used wire in tube (or wire on chocolate blocks), but the sector plate needed something more robust so I used some long wooden dowel a pin and a fob of hot glue. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Multigauge
Additional info

[SteveyDee68]

840mm = approx  2 feet 9 inches

220mm = approx 8.5 inches

 

I had to put it into "old money" to visualise it ...

 

WOW! And I thought my Castlebrook Sidings was small?!

 

My suggestion - for what it is worth (and you knowing how much of a procrastinator and mind changer I am!) - I would leave off the Y point furthest right, so that there are two sidings fed from the upper Y point. I would move the whole thing to the right to lengthen the headshunt slightly, and then extend the front siding (currently just a headshunt into the loco shed) along the front to be the reception/sorting siding.

 

As you will know, having visited www.wymann.info (The Model Railways Shunting Puzzles Website), the headshunt has to be the length of the capacity of the shortest siding plus your loco. Those two rear sidings may be extendable to 3 wagons each - if the headshunt can likewise be lengthened to fit 3 wagons plus your loco, then with a bit of luck your front siding could fit five wagons and you are back up to the full Inglenook, and the 40,320 possible positions of your 8 wagons to form one of 6,720 possible 5 wagon trains rather than the 120 positions of your 5 wagons and 60 possible train formations! (That's a big difference for the sake of one more wagon on the headshunt!)

 

Is that actually possible in 2 feet 9 inches?!

 

I just don't know ... some might say my "optimistic pencil" is working overtime, but it is worth examining. Elsewhere, another RMWeb member has said he dislikes Inglenooks when they exist in isolation, because they don't go anywhere. I would suggest that even if you stay with a 3-2-2 set up, I would have the front siding go through a gate (to limit the train length) to suggest the link to the rest of the railwayy system, even if never used in shunting your puzzle. (Perhaps room to pose alternative stock, or a brake van etc?)

 

If I had a graphics program on here I could draw it for you!

 

One badly botched image later...

 

I drew over your original image to try to keep the points similar in length ... no promises, but it sort of demonstrates what I was thinking! The fence could be a simple low post and wire or wooden fence, or maybe industrial wire mesh panels (likewise the gate denoting the end of the private sidings). I've indicated trees etc top left corner - perhaps suggesting that the line continues (maybe a mirror here?). I've shown an unloading bank at the rear of the back siding - if you gave the impression that the line went off somewhere beyond the headshunt, perhaps these could just be the exchange sidings, and so no need for an unloading bank?

 

Will be watching with interest what you achieve in so tiny an area!

 

Steve S

Edited April 8, 2021 by SteveyDee68
Added image & explanatory text!

[SteveyDee68]

I've just had my tape measure out ... 2 feet 9 inches - okay, the length of the drawers in my bedroom...

 

8.5 inches wide?! Seriously? No way!!! (My drawer unit is 18 inches wide front to back!)

 

Even more intrigued as to what you achieve (and having an odd bit of wood knocking about, tempted to have a go myself!)

 

No! No, no, no!! I am not getting distracted into attempting an even smaller micro layout! (I can't - I don't have a suitable local name!*)

 

Steve S

 

 

* Hang on ... Croft Lane, Hollins Lane, Hollins Vale, Hollins Brow, Blackford Bridge, Roch Bank, Bordens, Carvansons, The Hags ... or the old name for the hill beyond the Hollins Bush Inn -- Dooties?!     Oh dear.

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by SteveyDee68
Hit Submit a second too soon!

[AY Mod]

54 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

Layout diagram would not download

 

It seems OK at this end Chris; it may just be that your system doesn't like the filename as uploaded with surplus dots in it?

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2021_04/Plan.JPG.9174dac0bdf6d951f71ab48aa5d1213c.JPG

 

[AY Mod]

Test

 

[woodenhead]

@AY Mod, wrong sort of shelf .

[SteveyDee68]

Measured my offcut of wood - thank goodness, it is 7 inches too short! Phew!

 

Then my eye fell on the sheet of 5mm foamboard I haven't used yet ... OMG! Exactly 840mm long...

 

Nooooooooooooooooooo!

 

Steve S

[Chris116]

Finally got the track diagram to download. I remembered that from AnyRail you have to save it as a file to export and it then works!

 

You will see that I have used four Y points as in your original idea but have used them to form a loop which I always find I like in any layout. The blue and yellow boxes are for industries that have deliveries and send out their products. Given that there would be no way to hide loading and unloading I would suggest that box vans are probably the best way to serve the two customers. The head shunt at the right hand end of the layout should be just long enough for your largest loco and I would suggest keeping all locos that are used as small as possible. With the loop it means you can do all the shunting with just one engine which also makes the electrics much easier to do.

[ManofKent]

20 hours ago, steve1 said:

You might want to consider this as a reference book:

 

https://wildswanbooks.co.uk/Books/Slough-Estates-Railway.htm

 

Plus, the latest is of Railway Modeller has an Industrial Modelling supplement.

 

steve

 

Thanks - I've seen a few photos of the  estate in Gordon Edgar's book.

[ManofKent]

15 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

840mm = approx  2 feet 9 inches

220mm = approx 8.5 inches

 

I had to put it into "old money" to visualise it ...

 

WOW! And I thought my Castlebrook Sidings was small?!

 

My suggestion - for what it is worth (and you knowing how much of a procrastinator and mind changer I am!) - I would leave off the Y point furthest right, so that there are two sidings fed from the upper Y point. I would move the whole thing to the right to lengthen the headshunt slightly, and then extend the front siding (currently just a headshunt into the loco shed) along the front to be the reception/sorting siding.

 

As you will know, having visited www.wymann.info (The Model Railways Shunting Puzzles Website), the headshunt has to be the length of the capacity of the shortest siding plus your loco. Those two rear sidings may be extendable to 3 wagons each - if the headshunt can likewise be lengthened to fit 3 wagons plus your loco, then with a bit of luck your front siding could fit five wagons and you are back up to the full Inglenook, and the 40,320 possible positions of your 8 wagons to form one of 6,720 possible 5 wagon trains rather than the 120 positions of your 5 wagons and 60 possible train formations! (That's a big difference for the sake of one more wagon on the headshunt!)

 

Is that actually possible in 2 feet 9 inches?!

 

I just don't know ... some might say my "optimistic pencil" is working overtime, but it is worth examining. Elsewhere, another RMWeb member has said he dislikes Inglenooks when they exist in isolation, because they don't go anywhere. I would suggest that even if you stay with a 3-2-2 set up, I would have the front siding go through a gate (to limit the train length) to suggest the link to the rest of the railwayy system, even if never used in shunting your puzzle. (Perhaps room to pose alternative stock, or a brake van etc?)

 

If I had a graphics program on here I could draw it for you!

 

One badly botched image later...

 

I drew over your original image to try to keep the points similar in length ... no promises, but it sort of demonstrates what I was thinking! The fence could be a simple low post and wire or wooden fence, or maybe industrial wire mesh panels (likewise the gate denoting the end of the private sidings). I've indicated trees etc top left corner - perhaps suggesting that the line continues (maybe a mirror here?). I've shown an unloading bank at the rear of the back siding - if you gave the impression that the line went off somewhere beyond the headshunt, perhaps these could just be the exchange sidings, and so no need for an unloading bank?

 

Will be watching with interest what you achieve in so tiny an area!

 

Steve S

Thanks  - it definitely needs to appear to continue from one of the corners. Reducing to three points might be an option. I have the feeling anyrail is deceptive in how much can be squeezed in. I's a tiny space, but it's near enough the same size as two of the Scalescene boxfile kits placed side by  and they visually work well...

Edited April 9, 2021 by ManofKent