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The return of exhibitions - a further poll


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1 hour ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

A decision we will have to make in the not too distant future. It’s the legalities that scare us. I rather think we will be making the current sign even larger. We have earned a reputation as being a very covid safe environment and customers have complimented us on working so hard to make it so.

 

It’s the Covidiots that bother us and our customers. 

 

I do hope your sign is polite though.  One thing that the end of mandated masks should hopefully bring about is an end to the belligerent and downright unfriendly "You MUST wear a mask (or else...)" or "No Mask, No Entry!" signs that one sees.

In London last week I contrasted the above type of proclamation all over public transport with the subtle and tasteful framed attempt at the entry to a department store: "We would ask customers (my emphasis) to place wear a face covering".

A world away from the punitive threat-type sign but essentially saying the same thing - and everyone complied, people are generally much more amenable to being asked nicely.  I make a point of avoiding any premises with rude "Do this/that" signs or "Keep your distance" markers.  It's just not welcoming.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Legend said:

I just don' t get HM Govts view on masks . I can understand the need to open up the economy . I think the Govt view is that we've vaccinated as many as we can , cut the hospitalisation rates to reasonable levels , so we have to open up the economy . We can't go on like this for ever. But surely if wearing masks was essential for the last 16 months then they must do some good preventing further infections when we open up .

 

It all depends on the type of mask, we've never actually been compelled to wear a mask that actually stops us spreading anything, we've been asked to cover our faces which we all did but in the winter when I was delivering shopping to my shielding mother in law I would stand in the front garden watching my breath steaming out of my mask.  If the mask allowed my breath out then it allowed much smaller particles out too.

 

So really, what did the masks do other than shorten perhaps the distance my breath spread by a small amount, with social distancing it probably made a difference, but with the 1m rule gone will there be any protection?

 

Edit: from the BBC site, so really what was the point of masking if all it did was 'may protect'

image.png.2399c965917b1d41455ab49ea76439b4.png

Edited by woodenhead
image added from BBC News
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2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

FFP3 masks: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57636360

They can be readily bought online.

 

The one on the right of that picture, with the side filters and shaped face mask, is what I use, simply for comfort, the extra protection was a bonus.  As were the free goggles which are useful when using the Dremel.  I do look like Darth Vader's dodgy builder mate when I go to the doctors though.

"You want an en-suite in a Death Star?  Mmmm, it'll cost ya"

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19 minutes ago, Solo said:

I do hope your sign is polite though.  One thing that the end of mandated masks should hopefully bring about is an end to the belligerent and downright unfriendly "You MUST wear a mask (or else...)" or "No Mask, No Entry!" signs that one sees.

It only needs to be as polite as this...
 

No Job.JPG

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40 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

It all depends on the type of mask, we've never actually been compelled to wear a mask that actually stops us spreading anything, we've been asked to cover our faces which we all did but in the winter when I was delivering shopping to my shielding mother in law I would stand in the front garden watching my breath steaming out of my mask.  If the mask allowed my breath out then it allowed much smaller particles out too.

 

So really, what did the masks do other than shorten perhaps the distance my breath spread by a small amount, with social distancing it probably made a difference, but with the 1m rule gone will there be any protection?

 

Edit: from the BBC site, so really what was the point of masking if all it did was 'may protect'

image.png.2399c965917b1d41455ab49ea76439b4.png


Thanks Woodenhead 

 

For me then the way ahead is clear . I am 2 vacc’ed  but I will continue to avoid crowds , pubs , public transport and get some FFP3s for attendance of exhibitions , other events , should they start up .  I think this is taking responsibility for your own health 

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1 minute ago, Legend said:


Thanks Woodenhead 

 

For me then the way ahead is clear . I am 2 vacc’ed  but I will continue to avoid crowds , pubs , public transport and get some FFP3s for attendance of exhibitions , other events , should they start up .  I think this is taking responsibility for your own health 

It's interesting my wife (NHS but not clinical) has just been offered fitting for FFP3 for use going forwards when in schools or clinic setting, she has been dealing with maskless children since the schools went back so why offer an upgraded mask now?

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1 hour ago, Solo said:

 

I do hope your sign is polite though.  One thing that the end of mandated masks should hopefully bring about is an end to the belligerent and downright unfriendly "You MUST wear a mask (or else...)" or "No Mask, No Entry!" signs that one sees.

In London last week I contrasted the above type of proclamation all over public transport with the subtle and tasteful framed attempt at the entry to a department store: "We would ask customers (my emphasis) to place wear a face covering".

A world away from the punitive threat-type sign but essentially saying the same thing - and everyone complied, people are generally much more amenable to being asked nicely.  I make a point of avoiding any premises with rude "Do this/that" signs or "Keep your distance" markers.  It's just not welcoming.

 

 

Reading it from the counter:

 

Please wear a face covering before entering the shop.

 

This is for the protection of customers and our staff.

 

Thank You For Your Help.

 

Is that polite enough?

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3 hours ago, Harlequin said:

FFP3 masks: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57636360

They can be readily bought online.

 

I have done so, ready for when exhibitions open up again.

3 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

Could you not put a sign on your door stating "For staff health reasons all customers MUST wear a mask upon entry, unless medically exempt" ?

 

I don't know the legalities of this though.

 

Best wishes,

 

Brit15

Quite legal as you're entering private premises.

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

They are now to be used on the door as a test for Covid, if you can smell them you've not got it and you can enter the venue.

:stink::stink::stink:

1 hour ago, Free At Last said:

It only needs to be as polite as this...
 

No Job.JPG

That comes under the H&S at work acts. 

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Something that's not been mentioned so far is the use of perspex shields around layouts, as are commonly found around the tills in most shops at the moment - they'd have the double bonus of not just protecting the exhibitors from the crowd, but also stopping the fingerpoking...

 

Mind you, with the selfish attitude shown by some people in this thread, I think it'll be quite a while before I'm comfortable attending any indoor event, unless it requires proof of full vaccination.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Something that's not been mentioned so far is the use of perspex shields around layouts, as are commonly found around the tills in most shops at the moment - they'd have the double bonus of not just protecting the exhibitors from the crowd, but also stopping the fingerpoking...

 

Mind you, with the selfish attitude shown by some people in this thread, I think it'll be quite a while before I'm comfortable attending any indoor event, unless it requires proof of full vaccination.

I've been looking into screening for layouts and found this.

https://www.plasticsheets.com/clear-perspex-acrylic-sheet/

https://www.plasticsheets.com/plastic-sheet-cut-to-size/

Quite expensive especially if its for a large layout. That used in shops is usually 5mm and the price of a 2' X 4' sheet is over £40 so if your layout is the usual four foot baseboards that is the cost per baseboard. You will also need the top of the screen to be at least 1.7 metres (5'6") above floor level which is just above the typical eye level of an adult male. There are thinner sizes down to 2mm but that would be more fragile and liable to flex if people lean on it unless reinforced with a frame. Cutting and drilling can be difficult as well thats why such a service is available. 

Edited by PhilJ W
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2 hours ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

 

Reading it from the counter:

 

Please wear a face covering before entering the shop.

 

This is for the protection of customers and our staff.

 

Thank You For Your Help.

 

Is that polite enough?

 

Yup.

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1 hour ago, Nick C said:

Something that's not been mentioned so far is the use of perspex shields around layouts, as are commonly found around the tills in most shops


Do they actually do much good, I wonder?

 

Certainly they would prevent a good cough or sneeze getting through, so prevent “big” particles of virus-rich gunge getting to a recipient, but they presumably don’t prevent a miasma of breathed-out aerosols drifting about the place., which may or may not matter, I’m not totally sure TBH.

 

A partial solution, and not as effective as universal mask-wearing?

 

 

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3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

 

So really, what did the masks do other than shorten perhaps the distance my breath spread by a small amount, with social distancing it probably made a difference, but with the 1m rule gone will there be any protection?

 

 

That is what they did, but maybe you underestimate their effectiveness?

How close to we get to people when out in a shop? Checkout staff in a supermarket can deal with 100 people a day, but from across a counter which keeps them separated.

When sitting opposite someone on a train, you are 1m+ away. If someone is infected with anything, then this is likely to be transmitted across. A face covering could make the difference between a high dose & something less which the immune system can cope with.

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Just now, Pete the Elaner said:

 

That is what they did, but maybe you underestimate their effectiveness?

How close to we get to people when out in a shop? Checkout staff in a supermarket can deal with 100 people a day, but from across a counter which keeps them separated.

When sitting opposite someone on a train, you are 1m+ away. If someone is infected with anything, then this is likely to be transmitted across. A face covering could make the difference between a high dose & something less which the immune system can cope with.

I never underestimated their ineffectiveness but people still want them now when on their own they are not much use without distancing as well.

 

I imagine (and I would do this) that most shops especially supermarkets will retain the plexiglass barriers for some time to come to continue to protect their staff.

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Posted (edited)

This all reminds me a bit of some principles applied in electrical safety, which revolve around distance in air, use of insulation, and/or barriers that are proof against objects of stated dimensions.

 

I’m not saying it’s exactly the same at all, but the idea that either combinations of measures or single measures can be applied  is very similar.

 

Get far enough away from an exposed 400kV line, or a bloke coughing-out lots of Covid, and you are safe, but as you come closer barriers need to be added, until at the very closest only an impermeable, barrier will do - insulation, or a high-grade medical PPE.

 

Anyway, seems like that’s yesterday’s subject: from 19th July it’s all down to “common sense”.


Can you imagine how well that would go for electrical safety?

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Solo said:

 

I do hope your sign is polite though.  One thing that the end of mandated masks should hopefully bring about is an end to the belligerent and downright unfriendly "You MUST wear a mask (or else...)" or "No Mask, No Entry!" signs that one sees.

What is felt to be belligerent and downright unfriendly by some could be seen as clear and unambiguous to others. "No Mask No Entry" doesn't seem that different to me to "No Helmet No Boots NO JOB". - direct and to the point.

 

4 hours ago, woodenhead said:

It all depends on the type of mask, we've never actually been compelled to wear a mask that actually stops us spreading anything, we've been asked to cover our faces which we all did but in the winter when I was delivering shopping to my shielding mother in law I would stand in the front garden watching my breath steaming out of my mask.  If the mask allowed my breath out then it allowed much smaller particles out too.

 

So really, what did the masks do other than shorten perhaps the distance my breath spread by a small amount, with social distancing it probably made a difference, but with the 1m rule gone will there be any protection?

 

Edit: from the BBC site, so really what was the point of masking if all it did was 'may protect'

image.png.2399c965917b1d41455ab49ea76439b4.png

Masks work by reducing the velocity of the air leaving your mouth and nose, and spreading your exhalation over a wider area, a bit like the wide spark arrester type chimneys seen on wood burning locos. This reduces the potential concentration of virus particles in your breath, and the lower velocity means that it travels less far. So if there is someone near you any virus particles are less likely to get as far as the other person, and of they do get that far, the number of particles that the other person could inhale will be reduced. You can get masks that trap water droplets, but the act of catching the droplets can clog the filters and they are more expensive. If you'd stood outside your mother-in-law's and breathed out into the cold air without a mask you'd have seen that your breath would have travelled much further and in a tighter stream.

 

The comment "may" seems to refer to the fabric masks that you can buy and wash and reuse. Their effectiveness depends on the density of the weave and whether there is any filter layer as well, as both factors affect their effectiveness. If you go into a hospital for outpatient treatment or to visit an outpatients clinic in my personal experience over the last 15 months they always ask you to remove your fabric mask and replace it with the NHS style mask.

 

Masks are not 100% effective anyway so the wording will have to reflect that uncertainty by using words like "may", "might", or "could" protect, as opposed to "will" protect  which implies 100% effectiveness all the time.

 

You are right when you say that the removal of social distancing will reduce the effectiveness of masks but there will still be some benefit by the dissipation of what we exhale over a wider area.

 

Given that even our shiny new Health Secretary is saying that new case numbers could potentially go up to 100,000+ per day, and there remains the  possibility of lockdowns being reimposed if hospitalisations start to get out of hand again, I can't see shops rushing to take down the screens or any of the other Covid-related signage. For a start they'd need somewhere to store everything safely in case it's all needed again.

 

I shall continue to wear a mask and social distance when I'm out getting the groceries and try to go when the store is less busy, but I imagine that I'm going to get lots of "funny looks", and am thinking of going back to getting our stuff delivered again.

Edited by GoingUnderground
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I saw a great mask sign today, outside a shop.

 

”Please wear a mask in this shop.

 

If you are not wearing a mask, I will have to take your temperature before you come in, and I only have one, RECTAL, thermometer.”

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I saw a great mask sign today, outside a shop.

 

”Please wear a mask in this shop.

 

If you are not wearing a mask, I will have to take your temperature before you come in, and I only have one, RECTAL, thermometer.”

 

 

 

DON'T go to China !!

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9168707/Coronavirus-China-blasts-fake-video-people-waddling-like-penguins-COVID-19-anal-swabs.html

 

Brit15

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7 hours ago, Bomag said:

 

By continuing to require them for customers you are saying that your shop is otherwise unsafe for them. insisting on face masks.

 

So, our shop is safe today, 6th July, but by the 19th July, it will become unsafe?

 

I have said in other posts , not on this one. We have a local authority that has been carrying out spot checks to see if we are Covid Compliant. Pubs, hairdressers, gyms and shops have had closure orders placed on them for varying lengths of time. We decided on a maximum number of four people in the shop. It's a big shop by most standards. We will almost certainly carry on asking for face masks and social distancing. It is all about customers feeling comfortable and safe. Our customers have said they do feel safe. It is also about us feeling safe. We will not and cannot insist on face masks.

 

We have lost a lot of customers who have died from Covid. The number in our opinion is quite staggering for a small town.

One thing that has convinced us to carry on? We had a customer who we have never seen before, in the shop last week. He was starting a new N Gauge layout as he had run out of room for his OO. Just a small N Gauge layout around 32 feet by 16 feet! He told us about being in a Covid ward last October and surviving despite being 83. His story was the stuff of nightmares. We owe him and others like him.

 

Customers who came in today were asked their opinion about ending the wearing of face masks. Every single customer we spoke to said that they will continue to wear a face covering, a few added that they hoped we would too.

 

You could say that we are "following the Science". Heard that somewhere before?

 

I should add that we are both looking forward to Glasgow 2022. But will check nearer the time......

 

 

 

 

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On 05/07/2021 at 18:20, woodenhead said:

If people are prepared to visit then the viability answer may be answered because without restrictions those planning exhibitions don't need to consider managing mask wearers, maintaining distancing, screens, taking temperatures or testing regimes for exhibiters and punters within the costs.

 

 

If the exhibitors want their visitors to be alive for the 2022 shows, they should take a responsible attitude even if not legally required.

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32 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

So, our shop is safe today, 6th July, but by the 19th July, it will become unsafe?

 

I have said in other posts , not on this one. We have a local authority that has been carrying out spot checks to see if we are Covid Compliant. Pubs, hairdressers, gyms and shops have had closure orders placed on them for varying lengths of time. We decided on a maximum number of four people in the shop. It's a big shop by most standards. We will almost certainly carry on asking for face masks and social distancing. It is all about customers feeling comfortable and safe. Our customers have said they do feel safe. It is also about us feeling safe. We will not and cannot insist on face masks.

 

We have lost a lot of customers who have died from Covid. The number in our opinion is quite staggering for a small town.

One thing that has convinced us to carry on? We had a customer who we have never seen before, in the shop last week. He was starting a new N Gauge layout as he had run out of room for his OO. Just a small N Gauge layout around 32 feet by 16 feet! He told us about being in a Covid ward last October and surviving despite being 83. His story was the stuff of nightmares. We owe him and others like him.

 

Customers who came in today were asked their opinion about ending the wearing of face masks. Every single customer we spoke to said that they will continue to wear a face covering, a few added that they hoped we would too.

 

You could say that we are "following the Science". Heard that somewhere before?

 

I should add that we are both looking forward to Glasgow 2022. But will check nearer the time......

 

 

 

 

I have relatives in Liverpool - I will pay you a visit next time I'm visiting. Stay safe.

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1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

Interesting article


It is interesting.

 

I couldn’t help but chuckle at the hyperbolic language though. 
 

“……. keep the draconian rule but not enforce it.”

 

Does the writer actually know what “draconian” means?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

So, our shop is safe today, 6th July, but by the 19th July, it will become unsafe?

 

 

Well I wouldn't visit your shop at present, just as I haven't been inside a supermarket in England since July. Mitigation measures prescribed in legislation do warp the issue so you cannot identify high risk locations from the safety measures in place. From the 19th this will go and you should be able to identify high risk locations by the measures they need to apply to be safe. This does assume that the measures are identified as part of a competent risk assessment. One local shop to me has apparently removed all the clear plastic protection for workers but will retain the requirement for face masks even though the plastic is an Isolation measure which is more effective and more reliable. Its also like one of our contactors who though that a couple of beacons on his works vehicles was not enough so he put 24 on only to be run over while standing next to it as the driver of the offending vehcile could not see him due to the glare from his 24 beacons. Throughout the last 100 years the most obvious measure, which is nearly always the least reliable, has been the one seen by the public (and workers) as being the the most vital. 

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19 minutes ago, Bomag said:

 

Well I wouldn't visit your shop at present, just as I haven't been inside a supermarket in England since July. Mitigation measures prescribed in legislation do warp the issue so you cannot identify high risk locations from the safety measures in place. From the 19th this will go and you should be able to identify high risk locations by the measures they need to apply to be safe. This does assume that the measures are identified as part of a competent risk assessment. One local shop to me has apparently removed all the clear plastic protection for workers but will retain the requirement for face masks even though the plastic is an Isolation measure which is more effective and more reliable. Its also like one of our contactors who though that a couple of beacons on his works vehicles was not enough so he put 24 on only to be run over while standing next to it as the driver of the offending vehcile could not see him due to the glare from his 24 beacons. Throughout the last 100 years the most obvious measure, which is nearly always the least reliable, has been the one seen by the public (and workers) as being the the most vital. 

 

I understand what you are saying and l don’t disagree in the main. We have lots of Perspex and that will remain. 

 

An an issue for us is that as a family if one of us tested positive, we all (at this moment in time) would have to self isolate. Shop closed.

 

We are presently in one of those areas, avoid unnecessary travel, work from home etc. All of that is advisory. Effectively we are in a form of voluntary restrictions. Then in two weeks......

 

Last year and and most of this, we were in Lockdown together with Greater Manchester and parts of Lancashire for longer than any other area in England. Then for around two weeks we were one of three Model shops in the whole of the UK that could have customers in!

 

If you decide to visit our shop, please let me know. We will dim the lights in case you are dazzled and fall over the Humbrol stand.

 

Stay Safe and Well 

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