Information when things go wrong

[Coryton]

When things go wrong (on trains or elsewhere) I find it far more annoying if nobody will give an explanation.

 

If I'm told to leave a shop because it's closing early or that a train is cancelled en route, if that's all I'm told I find it much, much more annoying than if I'm given a (reasonable) explanation.

Even if the explanation is "Control's told us to terminate the train here and we don't know why" I find it much better than just being ordered off.

 

I'm curious as to whether I'm unusual in that (after all, getting an explanation doesn't actually change what's happened) or whether other people feel similarly.

 

But a bald "Sorry this train's terminating...please get off" makes me feel as if passengers are just seen as a nuisance.

 

 

[John M Upton]

There has been a lot of effort in recent years to try and improve communications but there are still gaps and inconsistencies.  Platform information screens down here on the Sussex Coast are now able to show delay reasons for individual trains, this being sent remotely from the ROC at Three Bridges but it is not always accurate. 

 

The classic 'Delayed by a late running train in front of this one' seems popular these days which does rather appear to be a shift of blame to someone else's train in front, yesterday I had 'Delayed due to trespassers on the railway' which was odd because that was the first I heard of them and I was driving!

[Ozexpatriate]

3 hours ago, Coryton said:

When things go wrong (on trains or elsewhere) I find it far more annoying if nobody will give an explanation.

When entities want to provide explanations you often end up with substitutes that may or may not have anything to do with the real situation:

• "leaves on the line"
• "mechanical problems" (with airlines)

The rolling delay for a delayed flight is particularly frustrating.

 

"Waiting for a crew" is one of the most genuine. Usually a harried crew eventually shows up and rushes on board.

 

[The Johnster]

Arrival at Paddington from Cardiff in the 80s on a Class 50 hauled Sunday morning train (we were on the way to a model railway show at Central Hall or Wembley, can't recall which now), which had been delayed by the usual overunning per way occupations, diversions, and TROS, to the announcement that 'British Rail regret the late arrival of the xxxx from Cardiff Central.  This was caused by a signal failure at Didcot'.  Somebody should have had a word with the driver in that case, as we howled through Didcot at well over 100, to clock 114 from Cholsley & Moulsford to Pangbourne, the fastest ever loco hauled run I ever had!

 

And then we timed the HST on the return trip at 132 between Hullavington and Brinkworth.  Uphill, the fastest I've ever been on a train.  Man, them Paxmans was screamin'.

[ejstubbs]

This issue comes up depressingly regularly on railfroums.co.uk and it seems to end being discussed ad nauseam between irreconcilable points of view on every single occasion, typically ending up as a multi-way fight (I couldn't dignify it with the term "debate") between the following schools of thought:

• People who want to know exactly what's going on and who get cross when they think that information is being deliberately withheld for no good reason;
• People who think that other people want to know exactly what's going on etc etc (see above);
• People who don't really care about the cause of delays so long as they get reliable and accurate information as to how and when they are going to be able to complete their journey;
• People who think that other people don't really care etc etc (see above);
• People who harbour a bizarre conspiracy theory that "the railway", being evil and corrupt, is deliberately withholding crucial information from them for legal/liability reasons which they never really manage to clarify;
• People who believe, on the basis of a greater or lesser degree of direct knowledge, that "the railway" does the best it can in difficult circumstances and who accept that, being operated by human beings, they won't get it right every time.

Another, often related, recurring topic which similarly degenerates into an unresolvable multi-way bunfight involves the difficulty or otherwise of procuring replacement buses in circumstances of varying complication and difficulty (hour of the day, remoteness of location etc etc).

 

I long ago learned to ignore such threads as soon as the direction of discourse becomes clear.

[Oldddudders]

The complexities of railway operation - some intrinsic, some self-induced - often make cause and effect difficult to identify or link. 

 

In my Central Division Control days, 50 years ago, and again when I was on the South Eastern a decade later, the Control Log would often detail some delays following an incident, and then add the catch-all "and reaction", which simply meant delays continued, although typically diminishing in scope over time.

 

"Self induced" is not a sop to conspiracy theorists, but a result of the way things were done. It was quite common, for example, for an incoming train at Victoria, as well as obviously forming an outgoing service, to be worked by a crew who did not take it out. And in most cases, did not even work another train together. So a delay to that incoming train would delay three outgoing services - one waiting stock, one waiting driver, one waiting guard. The traincrew supervisors were under pressure to do some swapping about, but they could only do so much. And of course, there might also be inbound traincrew travelling as passengers on that service, so even more trains delayed, by one, often trivial, delay to one train - e.g. 10' with a signal failure - might result in half a dozen trains leaving Victoria late, thus delaying incoming services awaiting platform, and suddenly the whole service is a right mess, and takes hours to recover.

 

Explaining that lot to you, the cognoscenti on here, takes some doing. Simplifying it as a succinct message for customers is impossible. 

[Coryton]

Well I don't want to stir up a can of worms so maybe I should leave well alone. I don't recall previous discussions on this.

 

1 hour ago, ejstubbs said:

• People who think that other people want to know exactly what's going on etc etc (see above);

 

I come into that camp except that I'd remove the "exactly" bit, but it occurred to me yesterday that maybe I'm wrong, hence my question.

 

It seems to me poor customer service if a driver or guard knows why they are asking everyone to get off and don't pass it on. But maybe not many people see it that way.

 

It does seem to me though looking at your list of types of people, you'll never make the conspiracy theorists happy and there is clearly a limit as to how much detail to give, but given a choice of:

1) "Sorry, everyone out here"

2) "Sorry, due to a lack of a driver you'll all have to get out"

 

Option 2) pleases more people and doesn't do any harm to those who would have been happy with option 1.

 

Incidentally, as to the knowing exactly what's going bit, a few years ago passengers at Queen Street were treated to an incredibly detailed description of why trains had been delayed (broken rail), just what had been done about it and how services were being recovered. I don't think I've ever heard so much detail in an announcement, and I don't imagine most passengers really required it.

 

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 Somebody should have had a word with the driver in that case, as we howled through Didcot at well over 100, to clock 114 from Cholsley & Moulsford to Pangbourne, the fastest ever loco hauled run I ever had!

 

At one point I used to think they had two decks of cards - one with a reason and one with a location, and they just picked an excuse at random.

 

As for it being better not to give explanations because they're often wrong, that's maybe a fair point but I'm thinking of cases of announcements made 'on the ground' directly to the passengers affected. They may not have the full picture but they usually know why they've being told to empty a train, and if not I personally much prefer the "We're trying to find out what's going on" sort of announcement to no explanation. 

 

And talking of people on the ground knowing what's going on, the best example I can think of was when I needed to get from Hilsea to Portsmouth and there was severe disruption (several things had gone wrong a once). The screen showed no departures for quite a while, though there were quite a few booked to pass through non stop. Then a train came in slowly (If I recall correctly it was a Southern 313) with the drivers head out of the window shouting at people to get on for stations to Portsmouth.

 

 

 

 

[Coryton]

7 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

The complexities of railway operation - some intrinsic, some self-induced - often make cause and effect difficult to identify or link. 

 

In my Central Division Control days, 50 years ago, and again when I was on the South Eastern a decade later, the Control Log would often detail some delays following an incident, and then add the catch-all "and reaction", which simply meant delays continued, although typically diminishing in scope over time.

 

"Self induced" is not a sop to conspiracy theorists, but a result of the way things were done. It was quite common, for example, for an incoming train at Victoria, as well as obviously forming an outgoing service, to be worked by a crew who did not take it out. And in most cases, did not even work another train together. So a delay to that incoming train would delay three outgoing services - one waiting stock, one waiting driver, one waiting guard. The traincrew supervisors were under pressure to do some swapping about, but they could only do so much. And of course, there might also be inbound traincrew travelling as passengers on that service, so even more trains delayed, by one, often trivial, delay to one train - e.g. 10' with a signal failure - might result in half a dozen trains leaving Victoria late, thus delaying incoming services awaiting platform, and suddenly the whole service is a right mess, and takes hours to recover.

 

Explaining that lot to you, the cognoscenti on here, takes some doing. Simplifying it as a succinct message for customers is impossible. 

 

I agree that the underlying cause can be complex, but in each case there is a simple direct cause, isn't there? No train or no crew?

 

Personally, I'm happy if an announcement says that a train is cancelled or delayed due to awaiting train crew. If i can find a staff member who isn't busy I might try to find out more, but I don't expect a complete run-down of how it's come to pass. And I can also see that in a busy station there may not be time to do even that.

 

But I was thinking in particular of when passengers are thrown off a train mid-service and there is someone on that train making the announcement. And - again - this may just be me - I find having settled in on a train and then having it cancelled on me mid-journey a lot more annoying that it not turning up in the first place.

[Oldddudders]

People are by varying degrees comfortable making announcements. Hand some people a microphone and they freeze, while others gush. So a member of traincrew or station staff may be exemplary in all other aspects of their job, but reticent about announcing. Hard to overcome, particularly if he or she hasn't really been given a full explanation themselves. So they spit out the vital instruction, but feel unable to add the cause - if they even know it. I sympathise with both staff and customer on this. 

[AY Mod]

2 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

People who want to know exactly what's going on and who get cross when they think that information is being deliberately withheld for no good reason;

 

You'll find them in many Bachmann topics. 

 

2 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

People who harbour a bizarre conspiracy theory that "the railway", being evil and corrupt, is deliberately withholding crucial information from them for legal/liability reasons which they never really manage to clarify;

 

Ditto. 

 

2 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

People who believe, on the basis of a greater or lesser degree of direct knowledge, that "the railway" does the best it can in difficult circumstances and who accept that, being operated by human beings, they won't get it right every time.

 

Ditto - well the sane people at least. 

[APOLLO]

Play the game !!

 

 

Brit15

[The Johnster]

I first encountered on train announcents as a Canton guard in the 70s, with the introduction of the airconditioned mk2 stock.  Bottom goods link or not, I had regular Sunday afternoon job in the link with an up Pengam-Stratford Freightliner relieved at Swindon with a down Padd-Swansea as the return working, relieved at Cardiff Central.  We were given a day's 'training' on the train PA, and there was a booklet of scripts to cover the standard situations.  I always believed it was best to tell the passengers as much as you knew, and keep them updated, and when we stopped for C & W examination at Severn Tunnel Jc one Sunday evening with brakes dragging on one of the coaches, I explained this over the PA, adding that there was absolutely no need for concernt and that we'd be on our way asap.  A passenger then presented himself at the van with a bag of tools, stating that he was a car mechanic, and offered to help!

 

The guards' compartment of passenger stock prior to this always contained an enamel notice 'In the event of any substantial delay, the guard must endeavour to ascertain the cause and ensure that passengers are suitably informed'.  There are three open ended words in this, 'substantial' 'endeavour', and 'suitably'.   I thought that as a general rule it was better simply to find out what was going on and tell them...

[Coryton]

3 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

People are by varying degrees comfortable making announcements. Hand some people a microphone and they freeze, while others gush. So a member of traincrew or station staff may be exemplary in all other aspects of their job, but reticent about announcing. Hard to overcome, particularly if he or she hasn't really been given a full explanation themselves. So they spit out the vital instruction, but feel unable to add the cause - if they even know it. I sympathise with both staff and customer on this. 

 

Thanks for that explanation. I do find that some staff are happy to give a good description of what's going on on a one-to-one basis, but not over the PA (including being somewhat less than complimentary about management, and I can quite understand a reluctance to do that when talking to a whole train full of passengers).

 

One failing I have come across is not saying anything when there is uncertainty, even though that in itself is useful to know. I.e. one time when my train was on the board, there was no sign of it when it was due, then it just fell off the board. Was it just late? Going to another platform? Or cancelled? The station staff didn't know either so didn't say anything - but an announcement telling us that they didn't know either and were trying to find out would itself have been useful (which they did after some prompting) I can see why they acted the way they did, but it seems to me that could be something that suitable training could address. (Or - again, maybe I'm unusual in preferring "we don't know what's happening and will let you know when we do" to silence).

 

43 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The guards' compartment of passenger stock prior to this always contained an enamel notice 'In the event of any substantial delay, the guard must endeavour to ascertain the cause and ensure that passengers are suitably informed'.  There are three open ended words in this, 'substantial' 'endeavour', and 'suitably'.   I thought that as a general rule it was better simply to find out what was going on and tell them...

 

I used to use the (now) GWR services between London and Cardiff quite a lot. Some time ago, the guards were quite pro-active in letting you know even of short delays. Then the policy clearly changed and they gave much less information. In general I'm all for not having too many announcements, but I preferred it the original way.

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

Had a classic the other week.

 

"This train is late due to a late running train behind this one"  

 

 

Nope. No idea as we were leaving from a terminus and there wouldn't be any trains behind us and we passed the next one going the other way.

 

The fact the train wasn't even late is what is also baffling.

 

Also was a bit peeved as the same "guard"* refused to sell me a ticket because of "covid". Yet the station booking office was closed and I needed a ticket to carry on my journey to somewhere else (Birkenhead). 

 

*The ones that kept going on strike because they are deemed essential by the unions to sell and check tickets (and open doors). Brain the size of a planet....

 

 

I'm sure they just make it up as they go along.....

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Play the game !!

 

 

Brit15

5 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

This issue comes up depressingly regularly on railfroums.co.uk and it seems to end being discussed ad nauseam between irreconcilable points of view on every single occasion, typically ending up as a multi-way fight (I couldn't dignify it with the term "debate") between the following schools of thought:

• People who want to know exactly what's going on and who get cross when they think that information is being deliberately withheld for no good reason;
• People who think that other people want to know exactly what's going on etc etc (see above);
• People who don't really care about the cause of delays so long as they get reliable and accurate information as to how and when they are going to be able to complete their journey;
• People who think that other people don't really care etc etc (see above);
• People who harbour a bizarre conspiracy theory that "the railway", being evil and corrupt, is deliberately withholding crucial information from them for legal/liability reasons which they never really manage to clarify;
• People who believe, on the basis of a greater or lesser degree of direct knowledge, that "the railway" does the best it can in difficult circumstances and who accept that, being operated by human beings, they won't get it right every time.

Another, often related, recurring topic which similarly degenerates into an unresolvable multi-way bunfight involves the difficulty or otherwise of procuring replacement buses in circumstances of varying complication and difficulty (hour of the day, remoteness of location etc etc).

 

I long ago learned to ignore such threads as soon as the direction of discourse becomes clear.

You missed one out.

 

There was a woman on a railway forum here, who once claimed that it was 'false imprisonment' to hold up people on a train.

I'm sure she would go well on a 'Freedom' demonstration.

[uax6]

As a Bobby I like to tell the driver of any delayed train (that I have to hold for our single line) the truth about what is going on. I often start the message with 'I'm sorry driver, the wheels have fallen off the wagon again, and you are going to be sat here....' and often end up with '... so I'd get the flask out and put your feet on the dash.'

Interestingly enough management think that its a bit too chatty and that I should be more succinct and not try to make the drivers inhale their tea.

 

Andy G

[D9020 Nimbus]

Things are better than they were in the 1970s — I remember being on a train from Kings Cross to Newcastle in 1971 that ended up three hours late and there was no communication whatsoever.

 

More recently I get the feeling that the majority of staff are doing their best to cope with what appears to be a dysfunctional system. Generally, the information given has been detailed enough, although this varies from operator to operator: the best being GNER and (more recently) Northern Rail (when run by Serco — not the more recent "Northern Railway" which was the worst I've ever encountered) and Scotrail whilst TPE were not so good.

 

Back in 2012 when I was coming back from the Halifax exhibition on a TPE train from Leeds to Newcastle, there was a points failure at Micklefield. Everybody was told to get out at Garforth; that it would be necessary to get a train to Selby and then another to York. The TPE train then returned to Leeds.

 

Along comes a three-car Northern 158—going to York. The conductor confirmed to everybody that the train would be going through to York, and when near to that station read out the departure times and platforms for all the connecting trains. Really helpful.

 

I once had a delay due to a reason not mentioned above — “sheep on the line" (near Hexham).

[John M Upton]

There shouldn't be any excuse for lack of information in this day and age, all frontline staff have company mobiles and/or tablets with real time information via a number of methods and rail industry apps.  The only frontline staff who don't always have access to real time information can be drivers (all mobiles etc must be off whenever in the active driving cab of a train/loco) which can result in the bizarre situation that occured to me the other day when approaching Three Bridges, the On Board Supervisor started announcing that the splitting and stopping pattern of the train was being altered.

 

The last person to be told was me and I was driving the thing!!!!

Edited September 18, 2021 by John M Upton

[Coryton]

45 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

There shouldn't be any excuse for lack of information in this day and age, all frontline staff have company mobiles and/or tablets with real time information via a number of methods and rail industry apps. 

 

And yet I still find that between official sources, Traksy and Real Time Trains I sometimes know more about what's going on than the guard does.

 

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

Had a classic the other week.

 

"This train is late due to a late running train behind this one"  

 

 

I had something like that genuinely happen to me. When FGW were running 180s, I was on one in passenger service with a partially failed one behind, out of service. We were told that it didn't have enough engines running to be allowed through the Severn Tunnel on its own, so we were held up for it to couple onto the back. In the end they didn't - I can't remember if it was because it took to long to get there or they couldn't get it to couple.

 

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

I once had a delay due to a reason not mentioned above — “sheep on the line" (near Hexham).

 

I once had a chance to see some of the more interesting bits of the rail network in East Anglia due to cows on the line between Lowestoft and Norwich. Fitting the passengers from the 90+Mk3's train onto a 2 coach 170 was a bit tricky, and to their credit they found a 3 coach one to use instead. They also did a good job keeping us informed, though I wasn't so impressed when I tried to make a compensation claim and they claimed that somehow it was all actually GWR's fault for delivering me to London on time, and had passed the claim on to them.

[John M Upton]

I was delayed heading into Littlehampton the other Sunday morning as I had to stop at a farmers possession crossing, get out and replace the telephone handset on the hook after one of the cows in the field had used it as a scratching post and knocked it off the hook!

 

The cows in question were all standing there pretending to look innocent.....

[The Johnster]

'Sheep on the line' would never have affected a Cardiff Valleys service in my day.  The regulars would award points for a graceful kill and we used to chalk them up on the cab doors of the 116s fighter ace style until the nice people from Dinas Powys and Penarth complained and officialdom put a stop to the practice as it was held to be in bad taste. 

 

Sheep are, collectively, a hyperintelligent Borg-like collective plotting the downfall and enslavement of mankind (if you doubt this, listen to the track on Pink Floyd's 'Animals' album and look one in it's eyes.  It's cold, dead, evil eyes, and be afraid, be a very fraid...), but as individuals they are stupid beyond belief.  On a railway line, if they hear a horn or notice an approaching train, unlike any other animal such as a horse or a dog which will immediately scarper off to the side and safety, your sheep will decide that he can outrun the approaching 70mph doom.  It can manage about 15mph over a short distance on slippery sleepers, more like 10 if the incident lasts more than a few seconds; the mathematics are deadly.  As the distance diminishes, the sheep will turn aside at the last second, then, in a final (and it is always final) act of supreme stupidity, turn back to see if it has reached safety.

 

At this point, there is a sickening 'thunk' as the cab steps brain it, and it rolls into the cess or down the bank with it's legs, stiffened by terminal shock, breaking as it goes.  The valleys punters rather enjoyed all this, and not a few were more than capable of getting off at the next station and stashing the fresh kill to be butchered in the garden shed.

 

The local farmers were not above putting long dead and rotting carcasses on the track for trains to run over so that they could put in claims for compo against the railway, which required full reports from us in order to pay out where it was justified. 

[BR60103]

Sometimes there's a bit of railway jargon in the announcements. I remember a GO Train that was delayed by a CPR train "on the diamond" -- there was a flat crossing of the CP and CN mainlines.

I also remember "We'll be moving as soon as the coroner arrives."

 

[eastwestdivide]

If you think train info for passengers is bad, try catching a bus some time. Mobile phone ‘live bus tracking’ apps that bear no relation to reality are my bugbear at the moment. 

[Coryton]

1 hour ago, eastwestdivide said:

If you think train info for passengers is bad, try catching a bus some time. Mobile phone ‘live bus tracking’ apps that bear no relation to reality are my bugbear at the moment. 

 

If you haven't seen it, try the bustimes.org web site - sort of the bus equivalent of realtimetrains but with a lot of extra features (like links to images of each bus on Flicker). I've found the tracking on it very accurate, so long as you pay attention to the "last updated" information for each bus. And as long as the bus company uploads their position data, though for some reason I'm not travelling much these days so haven't been able to try it out in many places.

 

6 hours ago, BR60103 said:

Sometimes there's a bit of railway jargon in the announcements. I remember a GO Train that was delayed by a CPR train "on the diamond" -- there was a flat crossing of the CP and CN mainlines.

 

Some time ago I caught the Cardiff to Holyhead loco hauled when it was 57 hauled. It failed at Newport and we were all decanted onto a conveniently waiting 175 across the platform. I can't fault the ease of transferring, but the announcement that our train had failed due to ETS problems and we should transfer to the waiting 175 could probably have been done in a more layperson friendly way.

 

 

[eastwestdivide]

33 minutes ago, Coryton said:

If you haven't seen it, try the bustimes.org web site

Thanks. I have used it, but it's only as accurate as what the bus comany sends, i.e. in many cases nothing.

Case in point yesterday:

I'm at the stop (at a bus station) at the right time, bus stop display says due now, bus company app no info, bustimes no sign of the bus.

2-3 mins after the bus is due, bus stop display now shows the next one (half an hour away), bus company app shows no info, bustimes no sign of the bus, only the next one, apparently half an hour away.

10 mins after the bus is due, a driver wanders past, gets on a parked bus at the wrong stop, fires up the destination board, everyone wanders down to the other stop, and we leave 15 late. 

 

Other times I've been tracking it on the bus co app, and then it just disappeared.

 

When it works, marvellous - our local bus app even shows how many seats were available on the bus, but I'd say it works 50% of the time, show no info 25% and wrong info the other 25%.

 

Rant over. 

Edited September 19, 2021 by eastwestdivide