Peterborough North

[BMacdermott]

Hello Ian and LNER4479

 

I recall speaking with Bachmann at the launch of the 6-car MIdland Pullman - they told me that they wouldn't make the WR 8-car as most people wouldn't have enough room.

 

But... they originally said some years previously that they wouldn't ever make the 6-car!

 

Brian

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hornby has the ... LMS 12-wheel Car emanating from Dapol in 1985. 

 

On the plus side, Hornby has produced the Maunsell RF - with some other catering stock in the pipeline - and the LMS Coronation Scot trains have the Full Monty...so, perhaps there is hope for the LNER/ER yet!

 

Brian

 

 

The Dapol coach is certainly a distinctive vehicle - but (1) it's a RC so the least common of the LMS 12-wheel types and (2) it's a bit dated now (36 years old and counting). Oh for a Stanier 12-wheel RT (Dia.1923) in RTR! The recent 50 ft kitchen is certainly welcome and we're all hoping and preying that Hornby will eventually release that as a general service vehicle, notwithstanding the curious case of 8ft versus 9ft bogies that has arisen there ...

 

Sorry Gilbert! No more LMS talk - promise. Besides, I need to go and affix some ladders to some signals ...

[BMacdermott]

30 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Sorry Gilbert! No more LMS talk - promise.

 

Hello LNER4479

 

This certainly is Gilbert's thread and it is right and proper that he pronounces 'yeah' or 'nay' to anything appearing.

 

However, from my standpoint - as the 'deputy' running the Mini-Polls - part of the agreed reasoning was the hope that contributors would debate the matter constructively, and you have all done so superbly well (so far!).

 

If there is 'slight drift' for valid reasons - such as comparing relevant company catering vehicles against the list - then that is fair enough, in my view.

 

Brian

[chris45lsw]

My vote goes to:  1, 3, 9

 

Chris KT

[Sandhole]

1, 5, 8.
1 turned up in Manchester as isolated twins both at Piccadilly and Exchange .

[Bloodnok]

Can I vote for 2 and 9 in this poll please?

I'm specifically looking for late surviving examples in 1970s condition, and with a bodyside profile better than current Hornby.

[great northern]

First my choices for today's poll, which are 1.4.5.6.8.

 

Now the reasoning. The steel artic sets are absolutely essential fpr PN, even as late as 1958. That is why I have a maroon set, which runs with a MK1 CK, and performs a number of KX-Peterborough diagrams, and a crimson and cream set, which has the original short composite, and is used for both E.Lincs services and one or two Grantham locals. I don't know whether any of the 52 ft CKs were still running in 58, but if they were, the E.Lincs would be the place, as it was always among the last to get newer stock. Both were sourced very early on, back in the mid 90s, and still going strong.

 

The lack of catering cars has been a big problem for PN, as so many trains need them. RF/SO is the most common. I know that as I went right through the Carriage Workings books and counted them all. Again, the triplets are essential, as almost every Tyneside service included one. West Riding trains had various combinations, often using RSPs, which I think would be a very unlikely choice for RTR, as they were very much a GN preference. Buffet cars are interesting, because although Dia 167 was the most common type, there weren't many rostered south of Doncaster, where a mixture of rebuilds of GN TOs and more than one one off diagram prevailed. Again, quite obviously of no interest to the manufacturers.

 

I have finally just about acquired all I need, but it has been a long process, and achieved only because Steve@31a has done several, and our favourite duck generously built a triplet set for me.

 

Even the RF/SO alone would be a big step forward, and as Graham and  Brian have already pointed out, the use of portions meant that they could often be seen on shorter trains. A couple of examples from a short trawl through the books. The 8.00am off KX had portions for Leeds, Bradford and Hull, and contained a SO and RF which were for Hull. They came off at Doncaster, and would have been attached to a Doncaster to Hull stopper for the rest of the journey. The 1020am was the only one of the West Riding expresses to have a triplet. It left KX with 13 on, shed a two car portion for Hull at Doncaster, and three more for Bradford at Wakefield, so between there and Leeds there was a triplet in an eight car formation. Plenty of prototypical justification there I would say.

 

I'm in the middle of doing another article for BRM on this subject, so there will be more about portions, and how to use them, in there.

[Mallard60022]

That Twin in North Cornwall wasn't the only time one appeared either. I have a pic of a Twin and some other stuff behind an N, approaching Halwill Junction. I'd be happy if they were available for Seaton Junction as I know that they would have passed through there............

[Clive Mortimore]

4 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

00 Rolling Stock Poll No.2: Gresley Steel Panel 5-sets plus Gresley & Thompson Catering

 

Hello everyone

 

Welcome to the second of our series of seven 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Polls.

 

This Mini-Poll concerns the Gresley Steel Panel 5-sets which were inadvertently omitted from Mini-Poll No:1 together with catering stock that has at least some connection with Peterborough North. You can submit your wishes here, on the thread, as usual, or PM me direct if you prefer the ‘secret ballot’ method.

 

If you vote on the thread, please feel free to explain why you have chosen your selection – hopefully, that will promote some interesting debates – but please do not take it as an excuse to start up the old chestnut of ‘kits vs RTR’!

 

Here’s what to do…

 

1. You may choose the Gresley Steel Panel 5-sets, then a maximum of three Gresley catering items and two Thompson catering.

2. You cannot ‘transfer votes’ to have five Gresley and no Thompson etc. although you can vote for just the Steel Panel 5-sets, just Gresley catering or just Thompson catering.

3. They must be items you would realistically wish to buy if made RTR.

4. Submit your entries on this thread simply as (for example): 1, 2, 4, 7, 9 – with comments and explanations following. If you vote by PM, please only list your selection of numbers without explanations.

 

1. Gresley Steel Panel 5-sets GN & GC (1935 & 1939-1942)

 

2. Gresley Buffet Car (Diag.167, as rebuilt 1958/9)

3. Gresley Cafeteria Car (RCAF, rebuilt from Diag.95 Third Sleeper 1954)

4. Gresley Restaurant Pantry Third (eg Diags.15, 112, 151 & 321 of 1925-1943)

5. Gresley Restaurant First & Open Third (eg Diag.10C RF & Diag.27A, 27C TO, 1928/9)

6. Gresley Triplet Articulated Restaurant Set (eg Diags.12, 13, 14, 1924)

 

7. Thompson FO/Kitchen Car/TO (eg Diags.351, 353, 350, 1947 & 1948)

8. Thompson Restaurant First & Open Third (eg Diag.354 & Diag. 350, 1949 & 1947)

9. Thompson Pressure Ventilated Stock Buffet Lounge Car (1947)

 

Get your thinking caps on and get voting! I will give you a ‘Thx tick’ to acknowledge receipt of your vote.

 

You have until 17.00 on Thursday 27 May. However, I will stop earlier and advise if votes reach 50. I will present the results during the day on Friday 28 May.

 

I look forward to your selections and comments!

 

Brian

(Note: These are ‘informal Polls for fun’ on Gilbert’s thread only and neither The 00 Wishlist Poll Team nor RMweb are specifically involved, apart from me in my ‘personal capacity’.)

Phew, apart form the steel body sets you have not included the Buffets I am making.

I am only doing a BSK+SK twin as by my modeling period the last ones were no longer in sets.

 

Catering coaches will include

Refurbished Gresley Tourist Buffet

Rerurbished Thompson Buffet Lounge

 

Refurbished 66ft 1938 Flying Scotsman Buffet Lounge

 

And lastly the refurbished dia 285 Buffet Kitchen

 

You mention the Cafeteria cars rebuilt from the ex Sleeper Thirds, which window design? The similar windows Eastliegh fitted to their rebuilds of the LMS Sleeper Thirds into cafeteria cars https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/unidentified-cafeteria-car-br-xlne-crim-cream-f3r-seating-end-part-view-of-fordham-signal-box-behind-coach.html

or the style shown in this photo from Robert Carroll's Flickr collection?

 

 

While on the subject of ex LNER cafeteria cars, all the photos I can find show the kitchen side, does anyone know of ones showing the corridor side please?

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Clive Mortimore

[Bloodnok]

2 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

When I ran a 'Train Length Survey' on the old MREmag back in 2014, I had 119 respondents in 00.

 

Of those, 21 could run 6-coach max trains; 19 could run 8-coach; 15 could run 10-coach; and 8 could run 12 or more.

That's interesting. 47% of people cannot run loco+6. Did you capture any data below that?

[Mallard60022]

[BMacdermott]

19 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

That Twin in North Cornwall wasn't the only time one appeared either. I have a pic of a Twin and some other stuff behind an N, approaching Halwill Junction. I'd be happy if they were available for Seaton Junction as I know that they would have passed through there............

Hello Phil

 

Are you voting for the Steel Panel Sets? If so, I need to see a '1' in your post - otherwise I can't presume to assume.

 

Brian

[BMacdermott]

11 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

You mention the Cafeteria cars rebuilt from the ex Sleeper Thirds, which window design? The similar windows Eastliegh fitted to their rebuilds of the LMS Sleeper Thirds into cafeteria cars https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/unidentified-cafeteria-car-br-xlne-crim-cream-f3r-seating-end-part-view-of-fordham-signal-box-behind-coach.html

or the style shown in this photo from Robert Carroll's Flickr collection?

 

 

 

Hello Clive 

 

I always state the items as 'eg' as it is often impossible to be totally precise. My listing here was as per The Guide to the 2019 00 Wishlist Poll below.

 

Brian

 

Extract...

 

(LNER) Gresley Cafeteria Car (RCAF, rebuilt from Diag.95 Third Sleeper 1954)

In the 1950s a wide variety of pre-Nationalisation (and some pre-Grouping) coaches were rebuilt as Cafeteria Cars, largely at Eastleigh Works, Southern Region.

 

Amongst these were six former Third Sleepers to Diag.95 which had served in ambulance trains during WWII. Although they retained the typical Gresley profile their appearance was transformed with flush panelling and British Standard gangways (with adaptors) replaced the original Pullman gangways. 

 

Numbered 9209-9214, S9211E and S9213E were on the Southern Region, ending their lives in green livery. In 1960, S9213E was noted in the Margate-Birkenhead through train. The other four, at least initially, were allocated to the London Midland Region.

 

[Mallard60022]

9 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Phil

 

Are you voting for the Steel Panel Sets? If so, I need to see a '1' in your post - otherwise I can't presume to assume.

 

Brian

Ah, sorry I will have to ask if the Set in the Picture is Steel or not as I don't know; apologies Brian. Steve will tell me I suspect.

[BMacdermott]

15 minutes ago, Bloodnok said:

That's interesting. 47% of people cannot run loco+6. Did you capture any data below that?

Hello Bloodnok

 

10 respondents said 5 coaches max; another 10 said 4 coaches; 5 said 3 coaches; 1 said 2 coaches.

 

Brian

[BMacdermott]

Hello again Clive

 

On reflection, the RCAF might well have been left out. However, if I had, then someone would have asked why I wasn't listing it.

 

In general, I am aiming for items that have at least some relevance to PN - but it's not always straightforward.

 

I didn't list the Quintuplet Restaurant Car Sets - primarily for the 'train length reason' that has now popped up.

 

Brian

[Mallard60022]

51 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello Clive 

 

I always state the items as 'eg' as it is often impossible to be totally precise. My listing here was as per The Guide to the 2019 00 Wishlist Poll below.

 

Brian

 

Extract...

 

(LNER) Gresley Cafeteria Car (RCAF, rebuilt from Diag.95 Third Sleeper 1954)

In the 1950s a wide variety of pre-Nationalisation (and some pre-Grouping) coaches were rebuilt as Cafeteria Cars, largely at Eastleigh Works, Southern Region.

 

Amongst these were six former Third Sleepers to Diag.95 which had served in ambulance trains during WWII. Although they retained the typical Gresley profile their appearance was transformed with flush panelling and British Standard gangways (with adaptors) replaced the original Pullman gangways. 

If it is of use, the SR Gresley Conversion sides are already available and make a relatively easy conversion

Numbered 9209-9214, S9211E and S9213E were on the Southern Region, ending their lives in green livery. In 1960, S9213E was noted in the Margate-Birkenhead through train. The other four, at least initially, were allocated to the London Midland Region.

 

The SR Gresley Cafeteria sides are already available and make a decent Conversion; Mousa Sides that are correct in dimensions AFAICS. I have almost completed one.

The Artic sides from SP were available as etches for  Gangwayed and Suburban sets. If there was enough interest Dave might get them redone, again if there were firm orders and the etches are still with him?

Steve proves how good a pair they can make; his look bloody amazing.

Phil 

P

[Bloodnok]

9 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

10 respondents said 5 coaches max; another 10 said 4 coaches; 5 said 3 coaches; 1 said 2 coaches.

That's even more interesting -- as there's still 30 responses unaccounted for. Just over one quarter of the responders must therefore not have a layout that could accommodate even a two coach passenger train. (Note that's not "don't have a layout" -- even an extensive locomotive shed or goods yard layout, if it has no mainline component, does not accommodate any length of passenger train).

That means that in your survey, of people who can run passenger trains (and are therefore the target for sales of passenger coaches), 70% of those people can run loco & 6, and 47% can run loco & 8.

With that kind of split, it's far clearer that a restaurant/kitchen pair is reasonable for a manufacturer to look at, and even a triplet should be a viable proposition. Although I don't expect to suddenly see floods of them RTR.

I just hope the first manufacturer to try something like an articulated triplet doesn't shoot themselves in the foot by including a critical design error, and see low sales volume as a result. There's been a few times where a manufacturer 'dipped their toes' into a market to see what the result would be, produced a bad model, and misinterpreted the failure as an issue with the market segment rather than with the model itself.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Bloodnok

 

The reason some are missing is that -  in the interests of brevity - I didn't give the values for 7, 9 and 11 coaches.

 

The essence is that a 6-coach train length is about 'a fair median'.

 

Brian

[Jon4470]

My vote is for 4 and 5.

 

The reason is that the RTP (no 4) and the RF (no 5) form the catering pair for the 5 coach portion that made it from Kings Cross to Ripon.

 

While I’d be tempted by the triplet, I really couldn’t justify one. So I won’t vote for it on the basis that I wouldn’t realistically buy it RTR.

[davidw]

4,5: Gresley Restaurant vehicles. I've faffed about residing Hornby 61ft 6 in stock with various levels of success. An RF  would have been more useful instead of the  RB. A surprising omission/choice. The pantry third and third open would compliment this nicely.

 

6: A triplet set would be a stunning vehicle. It could/would appeal to collectors as well as modellers. There would be a real wow factor!

 

7,8: Thompson RF and TO I'm still surprised that the CK was chosen in preference to an RF when Bachmann retooled them. The TO a Dia 330 would compliment it well.  Minimal tool changes could make the Dia 350 in the FO, RK and TO combination.

 

An FO,RK TO combination would be great. These didn't always work as a triplet and were eventually cascaded to other services singly. Running all three would make very distinctive vehicles.  As stated the Dia 330 TO and 350 TO would would be very similar toolings.

 

My only added plea is please make them in maroon!

 

[great northern]

Tonight, the other side of that well turned out B1.

 

 

behind it being an all steel artic five set, happily and coincidentally relevant to recent discussions.

[thegreenhowards]

If this poll had been 3 or 4 years ago, I would have voted, 1,4,5,6,7,8. 
 

The steel 5 sets are lovely and essential to modelling the GN south of Peterborough. Gresley catering coaches are very graceful and the triplets in particular look stunning. And Thompson catering was pretty common in 1950s ECML expresses so a must for the ECML modeller,

 

However, I’ve built nearly all of them over the last few years. So I’d only realistically buy a Gresley RTP  as this is the only one I have left to build. Even then, they’d better hurry up as I have some Mousa sides in stock . 
 

So my vote is 4.

 

Andy

[great northern]

Peeping out from bemeath the roof is another New England B1. It has the strange Grimsby-KX parcels working which only loads to two BGs, and so has stopped so that they are adjacent to the parcels office.

 

 

This is a Friday, so the B1 will be needed tomorrow morning to bring one of the KX-Skegness SO trains northbound. I have read that these trains were Pacific hauled to PN, where something else took over to Skeggy, but I find that hard to believe, as line occupancy on a summer Saturday would surely have meant that engine changing would be avoided as much as possible.

 

Reading a summer 58 RO the other day, I also found mention of two G*R vans in this train on different dates, one of them a syphon. I suspect it often loaded to rather more than two vehicles.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, great northern said:

I also found mention of two G*R vans in this train

Go on, you know you want to...