Peterborough North

[great northern]

From smokebox doors to tea, and to putting the heating on again.  Too dark for photography again too, so far. We have another J6 returning from duty on the Ramsey branch to look at though.

 

 

[Woodcock29]

Class 23, Baby Deltic

[St Enodoc]

BR/Paxman electro-diesels (class 74).

[CUTLER2579]

Class 23, Baby Deltic for me too.

[37Oban]

NBL class 21!

[Oldddudders]

St E has it. Class 74. A good idea that was truly bad in service. 

[David Bell]

Much as I love them Clayton Class 17

[jazzer]

I can’t think of another locomotive that had a greater gap between its poor performance in service and its true potential, than 71000 Duke of Gloucester. 

 In service was clearly not fit for purpose in terms of the job it was intended to do ,but as we now know, if had been fitted with a Kylchap double blast pipe and chimney as originally intended , together with a properly proportioned ashpan at the outset it would likely have been the most successful British express locomotive ever.

[mullie]

Class 23 baby deltic

[thegreenhowards]

At least the baby Deltics were sorted into reasonable Performers after rebuilding. I’ll go for NBL type 1s - aka Class 16.

[thegreenhowards]

3 hours ago, great northern said:

Much though I dislike disagreeing with 'Sir', I'm a bit puzzled as to what he is saying here. So far as I know, there are the three types of door. Looking at RCTS 2B, and I know it isn't always correct, it says that the first ten engines had a door 4ft5 and a half inch diameter, and 11ft curvature radius. The centres of the hinge straps were 2ft apart. That is the one sometimes referred to as the Darlington type, and is pretty easy to identify. 

 

From 1010 onwards, again according to RCTS, the doors were 4ft 9 diameter, and the curvature was 10ft 2 and a half inch radius.

 

On 61350 onwards the curvature was reduced to 6ft 5 and a half inch radius, and the centres of the hinge straps were 1ft 3 apart. That resulted in the number plate being positioned far higher, and again the difference is easily noticeable.

 

So, three types of door, the second one being by far the most numerous, and all three being easy to distinguish except in side on views.  I checked 61032 before committing to buying one, and was satisfied that it did not have the Darlington door. Tim has since had that engine sent to him, and confirms my view. I don't know of a fourth type of door, it isn't mentioned by RCTS or Yeadon, and I can't for the life of me see it in the many photos I have studied, so 1032 to 1097 sems OK to me, based on the photos of 1097 I have seen, and it was a very often photographed engine.

Thanks Gilbert,

 

I know my powers of observation are not the finest, but I thought I was going mad with that one! You’ve restored my confidence and I can get on with commissioning a much needed extra B1 for Gresley Jn. 
 

Andy

 

 

[bigwordsmith]

I’m going to nominate the MetroVick CoBo

[TrevorP1]

So many lemons to choose from! After some thought I shall vote for the NBL type 2 D61XX (Class 21?). 

[Clive Mortimore]

If I were to have gone for a diesel class I think I would have picked either the Brush type 2 or the Brush type 4. All 263 Brush type 2s were reengined within 10 years, the smaller classes like the NBL type 1s and BTH type 1s could disappear without needing replacing especially as the traffic they were built for was declining.  Losing 263 expensive locos might even have had most inept accountant questioning things. As for the 510 Brush type 4s all of them had their engines rebuilt and derated at nearly the cost of a new loco. Not really that successful but cheaper than buying replacements locos, just.

 

I know there were 512 Brush 4s but 2 had been withdrawn before the rebuilding of the engines started.

[great northern]

What an utterly horrible day. Steady rain, stygian gloom, and very cold. I have got some more new cassettes into use though, and even managed to run a couple of trains and take photos before it became impossibly dark.

 

Tea break image is that J6 held at signals while more important things go by.

 

 

There was plenty of light that day. A week ago, it was.

[Bloodnok]

2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

As for the 510 Brush type 4s all of them had their engines rebuilt and derated at nearly the cost of a new loco.

This one is particularly galling, as they should have received the superior LVA engine. But because of a failure to communicate between different country branches of Sulzer (the UK branch not getting the memo about the badly designed locating pin in the bearings, and choosing to blame BR for the resulting problems), we ended up with de-rated LDA powered locos.

However, once "fixed", the class did go on to do what they were designed to do, just not quite as well as they could have done with the LVA engine should we have received the french modification to remove the 'idiot pin'.

Instead I'm going to nominate the Class 40. Introduced for express passenger work and taking it's place as the pride of the fleet upon introduction, they were already being bumped off express passenger duty by superior locos before the last of the class was even in traffic. In this case, there was no 'fix' coming -- 200 locos were cascaded onto lesser work.

Perhaps if BR had have accepted the uprated EE engine they were offered mid-series, things might have turned out a bit different. But that would have made them almost as capable as the Class 44, so ... maybe not.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Bloodnok

[FoxUnpopuli]

2 hours ago, great northern said:

Tea break image is that J6 held at signals while more important things go by.

 

Absolutely beautiful.

[mullie]

3 hours ago, great northern said:

What an utterly horrible day. Steady rain, stygian gloom, and very cold. I have got some more new cassettes into use though, and even managed to run a couple of trains and take photos before it became impossibly dark.

 

Tea break image is that J6 held at signals while more important things go by.

 

 

There was plenty of light that day. A week ago, it was.

That is a superb photo in my view. I do like a J6.

 

Martyn

[great northern]

Just gone half past eleven at PN, so the Up York and Hull is due. Will it be the regular engine again?

 

 

Looks like it is.  It is always a popular engine on here, so we get to see it again.

 

 

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

 All the Hydraulic Diesels...........

 

manna

 

[Market65]

For failures, the first generation of four wheel diesel railbuses must be considered. They only lasted some ten years.....

 

Best regards,

 

 Rob.

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, Bloodnok said:

However, once "fixed", the class did go on to do what they were designed to do,

Never fixed the cylinder head leakage problem though, or the radiator hydrostatic drive.

[robmcg]

On 07/06/2020 at 09:59, great northern said:

This is something I'm researching all over again at the moment actually.  Hornby have done different smokebox doors - there are three types - but boiler changes occurred at every general overhaul, so apart from when the engines were new the only way to be sure what type a specific engine had at a given time is to find a reliably dated picture. Some B1s seem to have attracted a lot of attention, whereas others seem not to have been photographed at all.

 

The present Hornby B1, 61032, is only suitable for changing to locos up to 61189, as those built after that, apart from 61400-9, had full electric lighting and a prominent generator on the right hand side of the smokebox. 1400-09 when built had the type of door with the hinges much closer together, so the number plate was fixed much higher, which changes the whole appearance. There's a photo of 61200 a few pages back on the thread that shows that very clearly. Those boilers got moved to other engines in later years though, but often for only the period between two general overhauls. As I say, you need a reliably dated photo to be sure you get it right.

 

As always there is an exception which proves the rule. All the reference books will tell you that the engines from 1000 to 1189 did not have generators. Well, in my research I found a photo of 1075 taken in 1959 at PN, and it quite clearly does have one, and the full lighting kit. That may be the only exception, but who knows, really. How did it get it? Not from a boiler change, that seems certain. We shall ignore the Cowlairs fillet.

 

If anyone else has read this far, could you please let me know where there is a picture of 1060. I can't find one, and neither can Tim. If I take a risk and ask Tim to use 1032 as the donor, as it has the most common type of door, someone is bound to come up with a photo proving I've got it wrong. So can I have it now, please, and be saved the embarrassment?

 

Thank you Gilbert, the 61189 reference is very useful, given that Hornby have done at least one with the later 'narrower-spacing' hinges, 61243, complete with full lighting and bits. I see that the early BR green 61310 has wider-spaced hinges, full electric lighting but no front nameplate, so I will look into it further and possibly find further answers.  Fine models indeed. 

 

Upon looking at my collection there is a nicely-weathered 61334 which I probably bought on Ebay, and it may well be re-numbered from 61243, but it hasn't got Scottish fillets so I shall remain pleasantly confused.  I have such as Ramsay's books about these things but they require me to get up and use my wheelchair, which is of course what every civilised person does.    

 

Edit; I have risen and consulted books, Hornby made R3114 61270 and R3114a 61267 I think around 2014 but these both have electric lighting and wide hinges, no fillets, and seem to be rare second hand.

Currently available 61032 is the same as my 61138, being 'standard' without electric lighting.

 

As you say, reliable photos are the best guide.  I still have no idea of source the narrow hinge no-fillet 61334 which I own, I must dig it out, maybe the box will be the missing clue,  ah the mysteries!

Edited June 8, 2020 by robmcg
further rambling

[great northern]

Early golf today, so a hasty visit. Your morning photos feature first one more look at the W1.

 

 

and then the train which closely followed it, the 8.00am Up Newcastle, with 60065.

 

 

 

Poll result later, but I can give you today's subject to ponder on. Locomotive names. Steam or diesel, old or new, what have been the best, most evocative and appropriate names applied to locos over the years? By class or individual loco, if you prefer to nominate what you consider to be the best name ever.

[jukebox]

As a name, Thunderer rather impressed me... esp. romping through Southall at a solid clip back in 1988.