Do you agree with this assessment of the Hammant and Morgan controllers ?

[brian777999]

I was going to buy a second hand Hammant and Morgan controller because I had heard that they gave superb slow speed control. I then read this review of various controllers and it was not very complimentary of the H and M. Do you agree with his opinion ?

 

http://www.scottpages.net/ReviewOfControllers.html

[hollywoodfoundry]

Yes, I would agree. Any of the rheostat type controllers may be a problem with newer style models using low current comsumption motors. They made an assumption that the motor in the model would have a current consumption of somewhere between 1 and 2 Ampere, and the value of the wire-wound rheostat control element was selected for that current range.

 

But using modern motors that may consume as little as 1/10 of that current will result in placing quite a high voltage on the track when the knob is moved just off the stop position. Even the auto-transformer types have a similar problem. I have a Fleischman one that begins at about 4.5 volts.

 

A modern electronic controller is a better option.

[RJS1977]

My father and I have between us owned three H&M controllers - a Duette, and two different types of Safety Minor*. As second hand controllers go, there's not a lot wrong with them. OK, they don't have the refinement in control of some of the more modern electronic controllers, but I don't think it makes them bad controllers.

 

We've got some locos with Bachmann mechanisms in them and they're still capable of slow running on the H&Ms and even the 1956 Triang controller that came with my father's Princess Elizabeth trainset when he was 12! (I've been known to not quite turn that one off and look down a few minutes later to find our Bachmann 03 inching its way along the goods sidings!).

 

No, not quite as refined as the modern electronic controllers but a lot less to go wrong on them too, and what there is to go wrong is often easily repairable. The older of the two Safety Minors (a variable transformer type) suffered a fatal failure when the carbon brush on the transformer finally expired (hence the past tense reference in my first sentence) but the others are still going strong after many years' use. On the other hand I have a twin Gaugemaster controller where the least-accessible transistor has blown, giving a permanent full voltage to the track! Guess what I've replaced it with....

[DLT]

My father and I have between us owned three H&M controllers - a Duette, and two different types of Safety Minor*. As second hand controllers go, there's not a lot wrong with them. OK, they don't have the refinement in control of some of the more modern electronic controllers, but I don't think it makes them bad controllers.

 

We've got some locos with Bachmann mechanisms in them and they're still capable of slow running on the H&Ms and even the 1956 Triang controller that came with my father's Princess Elizabeth trainset when he was 12! (I've been known to not quite turn that one off and look down a few minutes later to find our Bachmann 03 inching its way along the goods sidings!).

 

No, not quite as refined as the modern electronic controllers but a lot less to go wrong on them too, and what there is to go wrong is often easily repairable. The older of the two Safety Minors (a variable transformer type) suffered a fatal failure when the carbon brush on the transformer finally expired (hence the past tense reference in my first sentence) but the others are still going strong after many years' use. On the other hand I have a twin Gaugemaster controller where the least-accessible transistor has blown, giving a permanent full voltage to the track! Guess what I've replaced it with....

I quite agree, the old H&Ms were very good controllers, and the standard of the day, much as Gaugemaster is now.

I use standard Gaugemasters (non-feedback) on the layout, as I prefer small handheld controllers, but my 35 year old H&M Duette (as criticised in the review) powers my test track and runs my locos very nicely, including those fitted with Portescap RG4s.

 

I dont know enough about electronics to comment on best circuitry or output, but with the switches on the Duette set to Full Wave and High Resistance, it works very nicely.

 

Poor control in days gone by had more to do with the quality of motors and gearing (which have changed a lot in the last thirty years) than with the controllers.

 

Hope this helps!

Dave.T

[Gwiwer]

While I'm no-one's expert I can make adequate sense of the report. I owned two genuine Hammant & Morgan controllers over the years starting with a single rotating knob Clipper and moving on to the switched Duette of which the report is quite scathing.

 

Those were rugged and virtually indestructible controllers built for the models of their time around 40 - 50 years ago. Those models were mostly heavyweight locos on steel track drawing high currents by today's standards. Technology has moved ahead in the years since they were released.

 

While a Hammant & Morgan is still likely to be in good working order (but please have the external mains lead tested first) it is not likely to be the best option for today's models. It doesn't produce the best current pattern and was never designed for niceties such as slow speed control and the still-new operation of DCC.

 

The later Hornby "HM" branded units are better and should not be confused with "genuine" Hammant & Morgan products. IIRC Hornby bought the company at some stage and gained the rights to the name but the report shows these units to be a more recent species altogether. I investigated them when deciding upon my permanent controller as I require four independent circuits. The best the HM range could offer was the two-dial controller with two slave units attached. The slave units draw current from their master output so you end up with two outputs at 1a nominal or with all four in use at 0.5a nominal which will barely shift a train!

 

We now have far better electrics and mechanics on our models than was possible half a century ago and we need controllers to match. The basic Hornby R965 one reviewed is a cheap start and is readily available. I still have two which were "temporary" until I acquired the permanent Morley Vortrak unit but which have been too useful to part with. One now feeds a lighting circuit and the other is earmarked for a second-man's position in the goods yard which is too far, at 8 metres, from the main panel for reliable one-person operation on line of sight.

[brossard]

I don't know about the H&M but I take issue with the author's first paragraph. DCC is suitable for any size layout, not just the huge ones. It has a flexibilty, precision and adjustability unmatched by any DC system no matter how sophisticated. It makes slow speed operation a joy instead of tedium. (On our first club layout, the control system was designed by a telecom engineer. It had lots of switches, knobs and dials and looked like it belonged in the space shuttle. It probably worked - trouble was, none of us mere mortals had a clue how to use it despite frequent lessons form our engineer. If he wasn't there at an exhibition and someone hit the wrong switch we were sunk. Not fun at all.) There will be those that live and die by their DC systems (much like those who prefer vinyl to CD) and that is their choice and indeed their right.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

John

[brian777999]

The later Hornby "HM" branded units are better and should not be confused with "genuine" Hammant & Morgan products. IIRC Hornby bought the company at some stage and gained the rights to the name but the report shows these units to be a more recent species altogether.

 

I looked at the Hornby ''HM'' too but I prefer centre-off controls rather than a reversing switch which is one of the reasons I am considering the Hammant and Morgan. Unfortunately, most manufacturers use a reversing switch now so I am not giving myself much choice.

[Gwiwer]

 

I looked at the Hornby ''HM'' too but I prefer contre-off controls rather than a reversing switch which is one of the reasons I am considering the Hammant and Morgan. Unfortunately, most manufacturers use a reversing switch now so I am not giving myself much choice.

 

This is where mine came from. Not a mainstream supplier but their products are superb and even on DC I find slow-speed control is excellent and is limited only by the locomotive gearing itself. These are "centre-off" models but none has a centre off "click". My only minor gripe is that they sweep straight through the centre from one direction to the other but you very soon get used to that.

 

http://www.morleycontrollers.com/

[Neil]

H&M, bombproof but crude control by modern standards (I have a fully functioning safety minor that I only use as a power supply these days that came with my first OO trainset forty six years ago), for a budget price plug and play controller I'd recommend one of the current Bachmann DC units. I've a couple of them and reckon they give as fine control as my hand-held Gaugemaster controller. From time to time it's possible to pick them up unboxed, split from trainsets for very little money.

[brian777999]

H&M, bombproof but crude control by modern standards (I have a fully functioning safety minor that I only use as a power supply these days that came with my first OO trainset forty six years ago), for a budget price plug and play controller I'd recommend one of the current Bachmann DC units. I've a couple of them and reckon they give as fine control as my hand-held Gaugemaster controller. From time to time it's possible to pick them up unboxed, split from trainsets for very little money.

 

So that Bachmann model has an inbuilt transformer ?

[edcayton]

I'm still using my 50? year old Duette with no problems and was shocked when Dapol Dave told me not to use it with any of their models. I don't have any Dapol loco's at present but fancy a class 22. My most recent loco is my Heljan class 15 and that is my best runner.

 

Ed

[spamcan61]

The H&M Walkabout is the only controller of theirs I'd look out for S/H, nice ergonomics and good low speed control IMHO; my 1970s Duette still works fine but as already stated the resistance mats aren't optimised for modern low current motors - although having said that IIRC H&M did have different resistances available, so you might get lucky with a S/H one and find it has a better resistance mat fitted. The variable transformer models should be OK with modenr motors I would think, although as already stated I wouldn't go out of my way to find one.

[Neil]

 

So that Bachmann model has an inbuilt transformer ?

 

It's actually comes complete with a transformer plug and lead as well as the control unit itself.

[Danemouth]

I have a Clipper bought IIRC in 1963 for 39 shillings. I use it with the Hornby Rolling Road which I've never been able to get to work with the Powercab. All of my locos are less than three years old and I find that I hardly turn the knob on the Clipper before the stock takes off like a rocket - thank goodness they are on a rolling road!

 

This supports the idea that this type of controller is more suited to older power hungry locos rather than modern ones,

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[Xerces Fobe2]

I still use Clippers to power the points and lights - they just keep going!

 

Xerces Fobe

[shortliner]

If you are running DC get yourself an electronic PWM (pulse width Modulated) handheld, designed to run off 16volt AC - with a 1 amp wall-wart 16v AC output transformer - Bachmann will send you the transformer from Barwell for £15 - I know, I bought one from them last week Mine will run a brand new Bachmann 44-tonner straight out of the box and make it move 5" in 6 minutes,- you won't do a lot better. Otherwise buy a Bachmann 12 volt DC controller with a 12volt DC wallwart, from ebay like this one- item number 160643036048 - they work very well

[antrobuscp]

I still use a H & M Powermaster variable transformer unit. I have a mix of locos, and it is very useful to be able to use a controller that packs the necessary current requirement of "stone-age" motors. That said, a lot of up to date models are quite controllable using it. That could not be said for a similar aged Duette - a resistance type I think - where the locos hared off down the track as soon as the control knob was clicked out of centre.

 

The best controller I ever had was the HM Walkabout - I'm still surprised no one has replicated it's features although I suppose that's DCC in terms of inertia, braking, etc.

 

Colin

[RJS1977]

Did some experiments with my father's Duette and Triang controllers and a Bachmann 03 today.

 

I was surprised to notice that the Duette's slow speed wasn't as slow as I remembered - I think the lowest I managed to get was a scale 30mph. A little on the fast side, but not ludicrous! I didn't try using the half-wave rectification.

 

With the Triang, minimum speed was approx 15mph.

 

I will do some experiments with the Safety Minor when I get home.

 

So no, not as good as newer controllers but not complete lemons either!

 

I did try using an H&M Walkabout when operating a friend's layout at the Abingdon show - pretty good controllability until I picked it up the wrong way round by mistake!

[Allegheny1600]

I'm afraid that I don't agree with this guys assesment whatsoever!

As John (Brossard) says, DCC can give the finest control and is just as suitable for a small layout as for a large one. However, I don't want to open the DC vs DCC can o' worms - so onto DC!

Well, I used both Tri-ang and H&M (Clipper & Duette) controllers for many, many years indeed, across all makes of model. Hornby, Lima, earlier of the 'new' Bachmann, Roco, Euro Lima, Jouef, Fleischmann, Athearn, Atlas, Kato, P2K and so on.

I always had good control with these 'early' controllers! If on say, Kato - simply switch to high resistance and carry on! I never used half wave though.

I miss their simplicity!

Gaugemaster are the up-to-date version, highly overpriced and IMHO not worth the money. (the only ones I've had have been s/h). I find they perform as well as the earlier controllers, not really any better.

The Gaugemaster 'UF' series as illustrated, is known among my circles of friends as a 'motor fryer' - it's so bad!

The American MRC are known to be avoided as being much the same.

I do agree with the assessment of the Fleischmann DC controller - good, reliable, solid, lasts forever but expensive!!

Cheers,

John E.

[kevinlms]

 

I looked at the Hornby ''HM'' too but I prefer contre-off controls rather than a reversing switch which is one of the reasons I am considering the Hammant and Morgan. Unfortunately, most manufacturers use a reversing switch now so I am not giving myself much choice.

 

Actually the link you gave at the start of this thread has a controller that does this - in fact it is selectable as a center off or a separate switch.

 

Go down the bottom to the orange prototype controller and see the description there. There is a link to the what he says is the production version. The P684SV, it sounds like it is a very flexible controller. Perhaps email him to see if still available?

 

Personally, I'd go DCC, because in the long run you'd get better performance and probably not much more. I wouldn't even consider the H&M path except for possibly the PowerMaster. The others only any good for older motors as others have said.

 

 

Are still trying to get your Dean Singles to work properly & is this the reason for looking at the H&M's?

 

 

Kevin Martin

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I still use a Clipper as my DC test unit ahead of fitting new chassis with a decoder. It is always used with high resistance switched in when running modern can motors, and requires about 10% of the total knob rotation to start a typical specimen; so for an item bought circa 1968 it seems to me well matched to current models. Used it yesterday to test a newly acquired Hornby L1 which happened to have a really sweet running mechanism straight out of the box: it was able to do a circa 0.5 mph crawl forward and reverse, nothing to complain of there on the part of controller or mechanism.

 

The benefit of using a DC resistance controller for testing is that it gives no help to the mechanism. If there is binding or any other mechanical problem it shows up. Get the chassis sorted so that it consistently runs smoothly and slowly on such a controller, and it will only perform better once DCC fitted.

[brian777999]

I just want a decent DC controller to work with old and new locos. I think DCC is too complex and not really worth the effort. I have sold those Hornby Dean Singles to somebody who is willing to take a chance with them and get them working properley.

 

I will be sticking with Bachmann from now on !

[Coach bogie]

I have a modern controller from All Components and by and large it works fine with all motors. On the othe two lines I use my old H&M Clippers. With resistance and half wave cut in the modern motors (+RG4) are as responsive as the fifty year old X04 & Dublo types. I also have another pair of Clippers as back up, usually absent as they have been borrowed for exhibition back up use. My son uses a H&M Safety Minor that does NOT have any half wave or resistence and that is not good with modern motors. He tried it with his Hornby Pendolino and it was basically full speed or off.

 

I only read the review so far as I began losing the will to live. At 52 I want something that works and have been around long enough to try a few out. Gaugemaster's have worked well but as they cease to work it was replaced by an Orbit (remember them) worked great, then stopped working one day and no-one could fix it. Then came the All components - still working after eight years (which is good for me). The record still goes to H&M. I have no idea how old they are. They were bought second hand when I was a teenager - you can predict their age for yourselves.

 

Further to John's two cents, recently I had an enjoyable three hours looking around an exhibition whilst the DCC experts tried to determine why nothing would work on the layout I was suppose to be operating. If it had been DC by switching all the circuits off and turning each one back on individually we could have determined the position of the problem in minutes. With two wires to the track where do you start? The solution, borrowed from another layout. clean up the track bed with a hand held vacuum cleaner. Result- it all came alive, lights, sound everything. Examination of the dust bag showed a tiny single strand of wire that must have shorted the whole thing out somewhere.

 

DCC is great fun but can be just as frustrating as your space shuttle experience. A good friend loves the reliability and extra features fitted to his Mazda 6, but he has no intention of scrapping his 1955 Land Rover which is as reliable in different ways!

 

As for my H&M, they are not state of the art but THEY STILL WORK!

 

Enjoy but not too much - its just a hobby

 

Mike Wiltshire

[brossard]

Mike: DCC, like DC can be frustrating as hell, but when it works it is a joy. It is recommended that DCC layouts be split into districts so that a short in one district doesn't bring the whole system to a grinding halt. A couple of weekends ago we took our layout on the road and it worked beautifully. Usually, if there is a problem turning off the power and resetting fixes it. With our old layout we would typically spend half the weekend on our backs trying to find the fault.

 

Anyway, as you say, it's only a hobby and its about being happy.

 

John

[RJS1977]

I used my Clipper (sorry, not a Safety Minor as previously stated) at a show on Saturday. At first I was surprised at how fast my locos were running (including one on a Dapol 14XX chassis), but switching the higher resistance in series brought them down to much more realistic speeds - indeed it was possible to crawl one of the locos!