RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted April 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 7, 2012 Is this practical experience or a suggestion? How have you measured wheel lift of .1mm on a moving train in a curve. I don't doubt your experience just the figure of .1mm Hi Jim, By taking a rigid wheelbase wagon with parallel bearings and turning down one of the wheels to a reduced diameter. With the diameter reduced by more than 0.2mm you start getting derailments. Admittedly it's a quarter of a century now since I amused myself with such experiments, but the P4 wheel profile is still the same. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 And that assumes that the wagon is 100% rigid which is very unlikely even with rtr stuff. Hi Martin In your case your wagon was 100% rigid. You seem to have gone out to prove an absolute worst case scenario (which is quite handy) but most of us cant get wagons that rigid (and square), so while its a very useful little experiment its not really all that relevant to most of us either. I have had gibson wheels in the past that are out by more than that and they stay on. They look really awful but they did work! Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doggeface Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 The original post is now 6 months old. It would be interesting to know what decision was arrived at. If P4 was tried, what emotions were evoked. I joined the S4 tribe a few years ago and have been active for about 18 months. The lessons regarding accuracy and care have been a trifle hard to take at times but when things work (repeatable more than twice) it produces great satisfaction only equivilent to hitting a golf ball the way and direction intended! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 The original post is now 6 months old. It would be interesting to know what decision was arrived at. If P4 was tried, what emotions were evoked. I joined the S4 tribe a few years ago and have been active for about 18 months. The lessons regarding accuracy and care have been a trifle hard to take at times but when things work (repeatable more than twice) it produces great satisfaction only equivilent to hitting a golf ball the way and direction intended! I will let you know soon as I am building my first P4 chassis using an older style make of chassis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RANGERS Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Simple answer to the question in the title of the thread is yes! It depends entirely on how much of your life you have left and what you want to achieve with it. Undoubtedly P4 offers superior running and does look better but it does take time to do, my experience suggests more than twice as long to achieve similar output to EM. With the standard of 00 RTR these days, only the lack of visually appealing trackwork has convinced me that EM is still worth the effort, let alone going the whole hog with P4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I think after just building a turnout and a chassis in P4 this weekend, somethings take a little longer others dont. I built a copperclad turnout and it took no longer that an EM one to build and a bit easier than an 00 gauge turnout As far as the chassis, I built a beam compensation version. I think I would have encountered much the same problems building in EM gauge using similar parts, may be a couple more tweakes as the flanges on the wheels are half the size but certainly nothing like twice as long. I would imagine that track laying will take longer in P4 but then again EM modellers could quite easy take as much care and time over track laying. In fact there is nothing stopping those who model in 00 or EM building their models to the same quality as those needed for P4 to work. Certainly in recent years I guess design of parts and new building methods have made modelling in P4 easier Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Simple answer to the question in the title of the thread is yes! It depends entirely on how much of your life you have left and what you want to achieve with it. Undoubtedly P4 offers superior running and does look better but it does take time to do, my experience suggests more than twice as long to achieve similar output to EM. With the standard of 00 RTR these days, only the lack of visually appealing trackwork has convinced me that EM is still worth the effort, let alone going the whole hog with P4. Unfortunately using RTR 00 means that you have to model what the manufacturers decide to produce. For those of us that choose a railway/location/era that they don't make much/anything for then we have a wealth of kits, etc. from the smaller suppliers. When you choose to build your own locos and rolling stock, then doing it in EM (or even P4) isn't a much greater step. There is also the difference in mindset between those that want to create a model layout and having fairly quickly achieved that then want to move on to another one, and those that see a layout as a unfinished model and are willing to spend a longer time improving and modifying it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted June 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 5, 2012 Simple answer to the question in the title of the thread is yes! Simple answer is "depends" as lots of people have pointed out, some things are as quick in P4 (diesels especially), some things aren't, nothing wrong with people using EM or P4, it's their choice, but let's not continue the myths please. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 my experience suggests more than twice as long to achieve similar output to EM. Can you expand on what it is that you did that took twice as long in p4 as em and which order you tried it in please? I can't really think of much that would take twice as long except comparing copper clad track to chaired track which is not a fair comparison anyway. With the standard of 00 RTR these days, only the lack of visually appealing trackwork has convinced me that EM is still worth the effort, let alone going the whole hog with P4. It's hard to tell the difference between 16.5 and 18.2mm where that's all you have. Comparisons are much easier when they are relative, such as the gap in a check rail being narrower than the rail head (as per the real thing). Given that EM is essentially 00 set further apart it's not visually any better than 00 in this regard. It's this understanding of the real thing that some people have, some don't and it's why there's never agreement, it's the most obvious difference if you know the real thing. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted June 5, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 5, 2012 Can you expand on what it is that you did that took twice as long in p4 as em and which order you tried it in please? I can't really think of much that would take twice as long except comparing copper clad track to chaired track which is not a fair comparison anyway. It's hard to tell the difference between 16.5 and 18.2mm where that's all you have. Comparisons are much easier when they are relative, such as the gap in a check rail being narrower than the rail head (as per the real thing). Given that EM is essentially 00 set further apart it's not visually any better than 00 in this regard. It's this understanding of the real thing that some people have, some don't and it's why there's never agreement, it's the most obvious difference if you know the real thing. Cheers Jim I bit harsh on EM there! If it is no better visually than 00, why do so many people model in it? The most obvious difference to me between 00 and EM is nothing to do with track. It is the appearance of a steam loco from anything other than sideways on, with the wheels in the splashers rather than in the boiler. It is when you put 4mm stock on 3.5mm scale track that the difference shows most. If EM is not better visually, is there any way you do consider it to be better than 00 or are you dismissing it as an irrelevence? I am all for live and let live and for each person to model in whatever they choose but to describe a highly popular gauge in such a way is slightly disrespectful to a number of very good modellers. Messrs Denny, Jenkinson, Jackson/kent/Phillips and the good folk at Pendon all come to mind. I don't have any problem with anybody extolling the benefits of P4, EM, 00 or any other gauge but please can we do it with a bit of respect to others, who choose to follow a different path? There is still a bit of an attitude around P4 modelling, not from everybody, just a few. If that could be got rid of perhaps it might encourage a few doubters to give it a try. The talk is all about "no compromise" and then they build models that have underscale radius curves and shorter or narrower than scale stations. Cyril Freezer, in one of his editorials, once wrote that the compromise in shortening a platform or train by a couple of carriage lengths represents a much greater percentage error than a couple of mm in a track gauge. We all (pretty much) need a bit of compromise here and there, so why can't we just learn to live with that without being disrespectful towards others who compromise in different ways? Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Simple answer to the question in the title of the thread is yes! It depends entirely on how much of your life you have left and what you want to achieve with it. It depends on what you want from model railways. If your aim is to get a large layout where you can watch trains running round and round as quickly as possible then I suppose anything which slows that aim might be regarded as hassle. On the other hand if your enjoyment of the hobby derives from making things yourself as accurately as you can, then P4 is not more hassle at all but more enjoyable modelling potential. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Hi Tony Of course there are aspects where it's better, I was responding to the aspect of visually appealing track and for me the gauge isn't something that you can visually notice on well modelled track. There's a shot on the olton road thread on here of 00 track that's very well modeled to the point of I challenge anyone to guess the standards from that single shot. Others have different views of course but I view the finesse of track from the area of check rails where the differences are relative to the rail head and this regard I sometimes struggle to tell the difference between 00 and EM. That's not a derogatory thing, it's how it is. Is EM not essentially OO set further apart? Re-using OO wheels is one of it's big selling points isn't it? I don't think pointing out differences is dis-respectful (it's not like I said you must be an idiot to model EM - it's crap!) but I appologise if you took it as such. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I don't think the perceived "elitism and mystique" about P4 will ever diminish; it couldn't matter less anyway. All 4mm gauges are great in their own ways. Also, I don't think modellers can claim that P4 runs better than other gauges, it just depends on the quality of your stock; your baseboard and how well you lay your track (Peco to Exactoscale). For me P4 is just about the look of the track; the wheel flanges and the personal challenge of making stock run reliably over hand built points with near scale check rails and crossings. If you can attain the latter the sense of achievement is huge. The other thing P4 does for me and others like me, is make you strive for greater realism to match the finer track standards, encouraged by the likes of the MRJ magazine and occasional visits to Scaleforum. But then, who doesn't strive for greater realism in EM or OO as well? I still admire many non scalefour layouts. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Is EM not essentially OO set further apart? Re-using OO wheels is one of it's big selling points isn't it? It certainly wasn't when I changed from 00 to EM 40 years ago. Back in those days, when I were a lad, 00 had huge steamroller wheels, and EM had something much closer to scale. Modern 00 is more like EM with the wheels set closer together! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Two notable EM gauge layouts that spring to mind were David Jenkinsons Midland S&C layouts and the Rev Denny's Great Central Buckingham. Both modellers showed that track was merely one element of building a model of a real railway...... They also built appropriate locos and rolling stock and followed architecture typical of the railway companies they were modelling. Then there was also Frank Dyer's Borchester. On looking at this layout, one was left in no doubt that it was based on the Great Northern section of the BR Eastern Region simply by looking at the locos, coaches and architecture. It might have been 00 or EM, I can't remember. On all three layouts track gauge was irrelavent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Simple answer to the question in the title of the thread is yes! Well that depends. If you enjoy the challenge, and have a clear idea of what you want from the exercise then P4 is never going to be a 'hassle' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Hi Tony Of course there are aspects where it's better, I was responding to the aspect of visually appealing track and for me the gauge isn't something that you can visually notice on well modelled track. There's a shot on the olton road thread on here of 00 track that's very well modeled to the point of I challenge anyone to guess the standards from that single shot. Others have different views of course but I view the finesse of track from the area of check rails where the differences are relative to the rail head and this regard I sometimes struggle to tell the difference between 00 and EM. That's not a derogatory thing, it's how it is. Is EM not essentially OO set further apart? Re-using OO wheels is one of it's big selling points isn't it? I don't think pointing out differences is dis-respectful (it's not like I said you must be an idiot to model EM - it's crap!) but I appologise if you took it as such. Cheers Jim Heres the shot Jim Cav Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Well that depends. If you enjoy the challenge, and have a clear idea of what you want from the exercise then P4 is never going to be a 'hassle' I completely agree Bill. Building a P4 layout for the first time is a voyage of discovery, and a very pleasant one at that. When I started with P4 it was akin to discovering model railways all over again with the thought in the forefront of my mind, "I can't believe I'm really doing this - me of all people!" Starting out in this gauge is also like sampling a really nice vintage wine for the first time and comparing it to normal plonk. My advice to anyone wavering on the EM/P4 fence, is to jump into P4 if you have the time and patience, not because it's better than EM, just because it will challenge you in new ways. It's great! Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 When you choose to build your own locos and rolling stock, then doing it in EM (or even P4) isn't a much greater step. I would argue it isn't a step at all. In terms of building your own stock it is the move away from the correct scale track gauge which constitutes the 'step'. A model built accurately to 4mm scale won't run on OO or EM gauge track. Its wheels will be too far apart. The question really should be, why would you want to add complication by building your locos and rolling stock to a non-scale track gauge? It may be that you want it to be compatible with rtr stock or an existing layout which is fair enough, but otherwise what advantage would be gained by building to a gauge other than the correct scale one? In terms of building an equivalent loco it is less 'hassle' to work in P4 since you don't have issues of driving wheels fouling the boiler for example. I realise there are many fewer modellers in that scale but it is worth noting that in S scale which has used a correct scale wheel profile and track gauge since, I believe, 1965 and where there are no rtr offerings it has not been found necessary or desirable to create a 1/64th equivalent of OO or EM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted June 5, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 5, 2012 ^^^ I admit that I had a go at building a rigid OO 0-4-0 loco chassis and it ran badly on the track ie it hunted a lot so I was left wondering,"Why bother with OO when building locos?" which was one of the contributions to my deciding on P4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I would argue it isn't a step at all. In terms of building your own stock it is the move away from the correct scale track gauge which constitutes the 'step'. A model built accurately to 4mm scale won't run on OO or EM gauge track. Its wheels will be too far apart. The question really should be, why would you want to add complication by building your locos and rolling stock to a non-scale track gauge? It may be that you want it to be compatible with rtr stock or an existing layout which is fair enough, but otherwise what advantage would be gained by building to a gauge other than the correct scale one? In terms of building an equivalent loco it is less 'hassle' to work in P4 since you don't have issues of driving wheels fouling the boiler for example. I realise there are many fewer modellers in that scale but it is worth noting that in S scale which has used a correct scale wheel profile and track gauge since, I believe, 1965 and where there are no rtr offerings it has not been found necessary or desirable to create a 1/64th equivalent of OO or EM. Yes, S scale is often forgotten in these debates Natalie, even if not 4mm. Some of the finest layouts out there (Lydham Heath for starters) have been built to this standard, and you're spot on about support from the trade in terms of RTR... So it is even more of an exciting journey for it's new adherents and one well worth exploring. http://www.s-scale.org.uk/main.htm Cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Folks, I hope that this is the right area of the site for this question. I have been looking to move up from OO gauge to EM or P4. Having joined the Scalefour Society I have realised that there is much more time needed to model in this scale due to the complexities of re-wheeling everything and the need potentially for reworking loco chassis and rolling stock. I spoke to Norman Solomon at Warley at the weekend and he suggested that EM may offer a much easier route, with less toloerance required for track building and also in rolling-stock conversion (over simplified statement, but a summary of what we discussed... ) I know there are lots of great EM gauge layouts out there, Wibbdenshaw being the obvious from the weekend; but what are people's exeriences in the move to EM? I will be joining the EM Guage Society as well to read the manual; but in the meantime any thoughts or views would be gratefully received! Ian Looking at the OP's original post he clearly has tried P4 and should (by now) have a reasonable appreciation of what advantages if any EM has to offer. maybe we should ask him to make a comment before plunging even deeper into the whirlpool? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted June 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 5, 2012 EM less hassle than P4? This forum is all about model railways as a hobby, and there are many scales and gauge combinations within this. Each has its dedicated followers, whilst there are a number of heretics, and I include myself amongst these. who are active in more than one of the above. We all argue passionately about our favourites, almost to the verge of fanaticism, but one will never convince 'non-believers' of the chosen cause. I don't care what scale or gauge my fellow RM webbers indulge in, after all it is just a hobby. What I do care about and want to say thank you for, is the generosity of members who take the time to share pictures and descriptions and those who so freely share their technical expertise, whether it be on prototype matters or modelling techniques. Regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Copleston Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I realise there are many fewer modellers in that scale but it is worth noting that in S scale which has used a correct scale wheel profile and track gauge since, I believe, 1965 and where there are no rtr offerings it has not been found necessary or desirable to create a 1/64th equivalent of OO or EM. Yes Natalie, this is quite true: British S scale is not wracked with those debates over correct gauge/standards familiar to the adherents of other scales. Since the mid-1960s we've all worked to exact scale standards, i.e. the prototype divided by 64 - easy-peasey! We've never accepted the "it'll never work" argument, but just simply get on with building models whilst making the effort to build them right in the first place. It simply works, and we apply this approach to whatever prototype gauge you fancy - narrow, standard or broad. Yes, S scale is often forgotten in these debates Natalie, even if not 4mm. Some of the finest layouts out there (Lydham Heath for starters) have been built to this standard, and you're spot on about support from the trade in terms of RTR... But then one of the delights of S scale is the pleasure of making it yourself anyway. Exactly so, Simon. Working in British S scale helps reconnect you to the craft of "making things" yourself that lies at the core of our wonderful hobby. Of course we recognise that S scale is not for everybody, but is best suited to the modeller of perhaps 'established experience' looking for something different and a wee bit more challenging. You don't have to make absolutely everything yourself, as a browse through the S Scale Society's parts pages http://www.s-scale.org.uk/parts.htm will show. Lots of other parts and kits are available from Society members too, and from Bill Bedford, Alan Gibson and others. S scale being only 19% larger than 4mm scale, we can readily exploit the available mechanical bits (motors, gears, hornblocks, etc.) from 4-mil, yet that extra size advantage give us a bit more room to squeeze it all in. And the models roll rather nicely too and work a bit more reliably that in the smaller scales, yet are not as space-hungry as 7-mil. So it is even more of an exciting journey for it's new adherents and one well worth exploring. http://www.s-scale.org.uk/main.htm Yes, S scale is an 'exciting journey' - well put Simon! If anyone's interested in S scale modelling please check out the links above or under my signature below. You'll find us a very welcoming and a helpful bunch of modellers, refreshingly un-riven with the usual squabbles about standards and nitpicking about the latest commercial offering found in other scales! EM and 00 - what's that all about? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 If you have been affected by any of the issues in this thread, then please consult this website for appropriate counselling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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