LNER B16/2 from PDK kit

[Michael Edge]

At the suggestion of Micklner I have started a separate thread for this build. Here's what I have done so far.

 

I started work on B16/2 61437 today, some notes and photos.

This loco is from a PDK kit with some modifications, the kit seems basically good, all the parts fit well so far and it's etched in .015" brass and nickel silver rather than the 10 or 12 thou that most manufacturers use. It also incorporates a simple and foolproof partial compensation system, although with the usual excessive movement. Since both of these are features of our own kits I'm not likely to complain here.

 

 

Frames assembled and wheels fitted, Markits drivers and Gibson NE bogie wheels, in this state in runs happily round my 28" radius reverse curve on the test track. The only addition here is to add the bogie stretchers. The fold up frame works well, at least for 00 gauge but it does have the disadvantage of not allowing sprngs to be incorporated in the etch. Front top spacer fitted as shown in the instructions - which turned out to be the wrong way round.

I won't do any more work on the frames now until the rest of the loco is complete.

 

 

The fold up one piece footplate fits very well on the footplate angle and frames and is very easy to assemble but this technique leaves a rounded fold on the front edge. To get round this a length of .4mm wire is soldered along the corner.

 

 

 

This is then sanded flat and buffer beam and top frames added.

 

 

 

Scrap etch removed from angle, basic cab fold up fitted and put together again - steel screws for the frame fastening, brass solders to the nuts too easily.

 

You don't need much sideplay on a B16 wheelbase and it's only on the centre pair. The real problem is the long gap to the bogie resulting from the NER fetish of always driving on the leading axle. I did enlarge the slot in the bogie stretcher a little, the bogie can move a lot more under the higher cylinders of the rebuilds than the original.

Yes the boiler is pre-rolled brass in this kit, I'll find out today whether it has been rolled accurately. Almost all the pre-formed parts I have ever had in kits have had to be re-shaped, the ultimate was a pre-rolled smokebox which had not had its rivets pressed out..... (can't remember which manufacturer that was though, I think it was 7mm scale).

 

I've not spent much time at the bench this week but there has been a bit more progress.

 

 

Cab and side overlays fitted, no front window frames in the kit so these have been added with 30swg brass wire, filed flat. The small steps in the running plate were about one layer too thin so an extra one has been added.

 

 

Smokebox saddle builds up and fits easily. Photo shows the square hole cut in the cylinder ends to take my slidebars later, also steel screw up through brass nut soldered to the footplate top. The instructions suggest soldering the screws to the top with nuts fitted below but I never do this.

 

 

The pre-rolled boiler was reasonable but not rolled enough so it had to be annealed and put through my rollers to close it up. The smokebox wrapper is separate and half etched to leave rivets and the first cladding band. Photo shows the completed boiler set up on the bench for cladding band positions to be marked with a scribing block, bands (lined black tape) will be fitted after painting.

 

 

The boiler pegs into the cab front and sits neatly on the modified saddle. The sides of the saddle were a little too high and had to be chamfered with a cutting disc before the top was fitted, not the one in the kit which had half etch bend lines and no rivets, replaced with .010" n/s sheet. Photo shows why I don't fit steps at this stage, buffer beam and drag beam sit flat on the bench to check all is straight and square until the boiler is fitted. Once the boiler is on the loco body will not twist so it has to be right now.

Boiler drilled for handrail pillars and washout plugs, two mudhole doors fitted on each side. These are not simply stuck on the outside but are on the boiler itself, under the cladding. There should be another one on the front corner, whether and how I can do this depends on the motor/gearbox fitting so I'll leave it for now. NER locos all have far more handrail pillars than any others I have built, the kit only included long ones for the boiler, these have been swapped for short on the cab sides. I don't use the .45mm wire for handrails even though it is about the right size but substitute slightly larger .5mm wire whic is a better match for the overscale handrail pillars.

More later today.

Michael Edge

[micklner]

Excellent work ,thanks for posting.

[Guest Tom F]

Hi Mike

 

Regardless of my own personal interest in this project, it will be interesting to see the construction of a B16 from start to finish. Plus the incorporation of your own modifications.

 

Cheers

[mikemeg]

There couldn't be a better subject/builder combination than this one. For someone (me) whose principal (though not exclusive) interest is modelling locomotives of the old NER, both as built and in their later LNER rebuilt form, then this is manna from heaven.

 

I'll watch this one avidly.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Horsetan]

.....The pre-rolled boiler was reasonable but not rolled enough so it had to be annealed and put through my rollers to close it up. The smokebox wrapper is separate and half etched to leave rivets and the first cladding band......

 

Sorry to nitpick so early on, but shouldn't the smokebox be the same diameter as the boiler outer wrapper? I'm looking at photos of the real things, and the smokebox seems to be virtually seamlessly joined to the boiler with no apparent transition.

 

This difference in diameter was a bit of a flaw in PDK's resin boilers as well......

[Michael Edge]

There isn't any significant difference (just measured it at 0.13mm) in diameter, the boiler is half etched where the wrapper goes. The first band is on the wrapper (I would have left it off otherwise) which by the way was a little deficient in circumference, leaving a 1mm gap at the bottom and slightly misaligned handrail holes.

In answer to mikemeg, for some reason I rarely get NER locos to build - although I do have a 7mm Q6 on order as well.

[Michael Edge]

Most of loco body now finished, cab steps on now that the boiler is fitted and the body won't twist any more.

 

 

The kit includes two LNER bucket seats which I haven't fitted yet. I can't find any photos of the inside of the cab, does anyone know if these are correct? NER cabs had large boxes for seats but these were new built cabs on the B16/2 and B16/3. Brake valve moved to RH side and regulator handle added from flattened .5mm wire.

 

 

Most of front end detail on, lamp brackets from some of our kit spares, steampipes reshaped (as supplied they were flat on top), lubricator pipework from copper wire, sand filler and motion cover from kit but different lubricator fitted (from spares box - don't ask me where it came from originally). The brass chimney was in the kit box and is a fair match for the one 61437 carried in early 1950s - later it had a normal NER type. Some wire brush polishing around soldered fittings such as the ejector connection to the smokebox. I don't do this all over and the whole job gets grit blasted before painting anyway. I prefer white metal dome castings if possible as they can be formed down on to the boiler - then smoothed and polished. Front steps not fitted yet, the ones on the etch are nothing like the right shape.

 

 

The laminated reach rod is nicely done in the kit, some more pipes added with copper wire. I turned a whistle as I couldn't find one in the kit, last mudhole doors now fitted to the front corner of the firebox now I have settled on driving the trailing axle. I then had to fill in the gap under the boiler, not easy. I don't know why some kit designers are so firmly wedded to driving the centre axle but it would be a lot easier to cut a bit out than fill in the large gap. A few more bits to go on then I'll have to start on the tender since my additional etches won't arrive until tomorrow at the earliest.

Michael Edge

[Horsetan]

Now that's already a stunner

 

..... I turned a whistle as I couldn't find one in the kit....

 

Sod's Law says you'll find it just after you've finished painting the completed model.

[Guest Tom F]

That chimney looks pretty much spot on to that photo. The caption says it's a Q7 chimney but after looking at Q7s I don't think it is.

 

It's looking superb Mike!

[Michael Edge]

No I don't think iits from a Q7, it is quite straight sided without a "windjabber". Photos of 61437 with the later BR crest show it fitted with the normal curved side NER chimney with the windjabber.

[iak]

Drool...

Dribble...

Very tasty Mike

[DLT]

Excellent build Mike, I will be following closely.

many thanks,

Dave.T

[Mallard60022]

Have to say this looks very nice indeed. There is something about these brass/w.metal kits in the 'buff' so to speak.

P @36E

[Guest Tom F]

Have to say this looks very nice indeed. There is something about these brass/w.metal kits in the 'buff' so to speak.

P @36E

 

Funny you saying that Phil. I just spoke to Tim earlier on the phone, and I said pretty much the same thing. There is something very beautiful seeing the locomotive in it's original brass condition.

[Michael Edge]

Total frustration with the tender frame this afternoon. The instructions suggest fitting the outside frames to the footplate, then adding the buffer beam/drag beam and much later fitting the footplate angle (or valance as they refer to it). The sensible order is to fit the fp angle first, while you can get the soldering iron to the inside easily - however, unlike the loco footplate, the tender footplate has no half etch groove (or anything else) to locate this. Not only that but there isn't actually any etched components for this, the instructions refer to "brass strip" by which I presume they mean the scrap between parts - assuming you haven't already cut it up removing said parts.

However I fitted this and the drag beam, the frames slot very neatly into the footplate (once I had figured out which end is which - not much help from the parts or instructions/sketches) but....

They are only 5'9" apart and the holes in the buffer beam are etched way too close to get the buffer tails inside the frames. I know this is usually a problem with tender frames as buffers are usually fitted more or less in line with the frames for obvious reasons and unlike full size practice our buffers are not self contained. Usually it is possible to move the frames very slightly to clear the thin tails of Gibson buffers, on other tenders a slot can be cut in the frame end, hidden behind a step plate but not on this one.

However all this is unnecessary with North Eastern tenders which have frames 6'3"3/4 apart, leaving plenty of room for buffers.

 

 

This shows footplate with angles and drag beam attached, buffer beam with buffer mounting flanges moved out to correct width - and a large gap now visible, I hope the buffer will cover this. One frame plate with tabs removed ready to fit at correct spacing. The Gibson flanges are fitted now so that they can be ground away to clear the frame ends.

 

 

Footplate finished and buffers added, there was still a small gap to the original holes, easily filled with solder.

Inner frames and wheels next, then the tank. Might just be finished tomorrow.

Michael Edge

[Barry O]

Looking good - will it BR black?

[ArthurK]

That chimney looks much more like the Q7 than it does the B16. The latter was squatter and as has been pointed out has a windjabber.

 

I have both typres as options for my Q5/2. The loco in photo below is fitted with the B16 Variety. None of the fittings are fixed in place - they are just sitting there!

 

 

What did you use for that first cleading band? it looks very thick.

 

ArthurK

[Michael Edge]

The first band is on the half etch smokebox wrapper, otherwise it wouldn't be on. Yes it's far too thick but far too much hassle (and more importantly, money) to remove. I use .002" copper shim for cladding bands which aren't going to be lined.

[mikemeg]

Very much enjoying watching this build, Mike. On the photos, shown to date on this thread, the model looks very good. Perhaps my only reservation would be with the representation of the backhead with the white metal casting, where some of Arthur's lost wax brass castings - gauge glasses, pipework, regulator housing, etc.- might give it a much more three-dimensional feel.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[N15class]

I always use Magic tape for boiler bands whether they are lined or not. Unlined ones are add before or after priming and lined ones at transfer stage.

[Michael Edge]

Very much enjoying watching this build, Mike. On the photos, shown to date on this thread, the model looks very good. Perhaps my only reservation would be with the representation of the backhead with the white metal casting, where some of Arthur's lost wax brass castings - gauge glasses, pipework, regulator housing, etc.- might give it a much more three-dimensional feel.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

I'm sure you're right but unless the parts are completely wrong I do have to use what's in the kit or I'll just be losing money. I still don't know what a B16 rebuild looks like inside the cab anyway - nobody has sent any comments yet on the bucket seats provided in the kit. The only useful photo I have found shows the driver stood with his head in the rear RH window so there definitely isn't a large box there but he could be stood in front of a bucket seat.

Michael Edge

[mikemeg]

I'm sure you're right but unless the parts are completely wrong I do have to use what's in the kit or I'll just be losing money. I still don't know what a B16 rebuild looks like inside the cab anyway - nobody has sent any comments yet on the bucket seats provided in the kit. The only useful photo I have found shows the driver stood with his head in the rear RH window so there definitely isn't a large box there but he could be stood in front of a bucket seat.

Michael Edge

 

Mike,

 

I don't know which drawing you're using for this kit but the appropriate Isinglass drawing (422b for B16/2; 423b for B16/3 both priced at £4.50 plus P&P for 4mm scale) might show you the cab layout and give some indication as to whether (and where) the bucket seats were used. Certainly on the B16/1 drawing, which I have, there are no bucket seats shown but these were the original NER cabs.

 

As to chimneys, the original NER Class S3 chimney is shown similar to the one fitted to the model, though with a capuchon or windjabber. This had an overall height of 1' 4 1/4" or 1' 5 1/4" if the capuchon or windjabber was fitted, which allowed them to comply with the NER's 13' 3" loading gauge.

 

In order to comply with the composite LNER loading gauge (13' 0"), new chimneys were fitted to the B16's in the 1920's and 1930's which were 3" lower i.e. 1' 1 1/4" or 1' 2 1/4" if the windjabber was fitted. Thus the chimneys fitted to all B16/2's and B16/3's would have been the lower, curved sided variety. The one currently fitted to the model appears (and I can only go by the photographs) to be more akin to the taller NER chimney.

 

In one post you say 'the chimney in the kit appears to be the one carried by 61437 in the 1950's, later it carried a normal NER type'. Possibly, but that would have been the taller one, putting the loco back to 13' 3" to chimney top?

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[ArthurK]

Michael

 

The B16/1 had the traditional box type seats running the length of the cab side. These engines had steam reverse cylinders for the motion. On rebuilding the steam reverse was changed to screw reverse as in your photo. However the general arrangement of the backhead details was very similat to those of the Q7 which was the same vintage. There is an excellent photo of that in Ken Hoole's book on NER Locomotives. The major difference of couse the lack of train brakes on the latter. The B16 had the dreadnought vacuum brake valve at top right which is poorly represented on the casting. Also missing is the steam heating valve on the left of the backhead. There was a drawing of the B16/1 backhead published in the NERA "EXpresss" some years ago.

 

When rebuilt by the LNER to B16/2 and B16/3 the cab side sheets were made longer. The cab boxes were removed and replaced by the LNER style bucket seats sitting on brackets attached to the cab sides. These are shown in the Isinglass drawing by John Edgson.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Just read Mikes comments on the chimneys. I have looked at all of the photos in Yeadons. All but two of these show chimneys with the capuchon (tall in NER and early LNER an shorter thereafter). 61437 and 61419 both have chimneys without capuchon. The caption to the former desribes it as Q7. Not sure if this also applies to that of 61419 but that is different from the norm. I believe that there were very few fitted with this style.

 

ArthurK

[Michael Edge]

The Isinglass drawings are usually good on details, although they do have a large number of dimensional errors. I haven't got the one for this loco but it seems the bucket seats may well be correct, in the absence of any real evidence I'll put them in.

Not too much time at the bench today, we're busy packing kits for Scaleforum this weekend, but the tender is nearly finished.

 

 

Fold up inner frames, pcb strips soldered to brake wires for tender pickups (to be fitted after painting).

 

 

The tender frame lines up exactly with the loco, without any packing or adjustment.

 

 

Tender brake gear in the kit is not quite right but can be modified to look near enough. Main fault is that all the brake hangers are etched the same, in fact they are all different, especially the trailing ones.

 

 

The tender sides really need bending bars to form correctly and even with this equipment it's not easy, the.015" brass is quite hard to bend. I soldered the overlay on before forming which makes it harder but gets a cleaner joint. It might have been better with half etch lines on the outside of the bends where they would have been covered by the overlays.

 

 

Sides and end fit neatly in the slots in the footplate, holes sawn in the latter for better access later.

 

 

One of the reasons I don't like slot and tab is the difficulty of getting the solder to flow right through the joints, especially where the tabs are. I like to see a nice bright line of solder all the way round the outside, the soldering iron only goes on the inside, the outside is scraped clean later.

 

 

Lower lamp brackets and handrails fitted now while I can still get the iron to to the inside. Top lamp bracket is abit different on NER tenders, I'll deal with this later.

 

 

Beading added to front edge - before the handrails to make cleaning up easier.

 

 

Tender top built up ready to fit tomorrow, the instructions don't suggest doing it this way but it should be a lot easier. The coal space folds up quite well, these are not easy to design.

 

 

Finally my supplementary etch arrived today, no idea whether the parts will fit but time will tell. We have a few of these, I used it as a space filler on the production J63 etch.

 

Michael Edge

[micklner]

Nice work.

 

52FModels do a nice NER Lamp Iron etch inc the rear version if needed.