Hornby Stanier period 3 coaches and Bachmann 'Porthole' stock

[6959]

The current Hornby Stanier coaches are too good to pass up even if they are out of region. The Bachmann 'Porthole' stock promises to be very good when they are released next year and are an added threat to the credit card.

 

A semi-fast 4-coach set comprising BTK (BSK) + TK (SK) + CK + BTK (BSK) would suit my needs if only Hornby would produce a CK. Bachmann should give the options of BTK - TK - CK - BTK or BTK - CK - CK - BTK or BTK - TK - TK - BFK.

 

First class coaches in corridor or open style were relatively rare so finding a use for the FK and FO poses a problem. Maybe they could be used with dining cars but then it develops into named expresses and could work out too long in model form.

 

Not knowing too much about things LMS, I have put together the attached spreadsheet to save me buying stock that cannot be used in a realistic formation.

 

Supplied 'as-is'. (Scanned with AVG anti-virus before posting).

LMS_period3_Hornby.XLS

[newport_rod]

Very useful summary (I need a BTK,CK,TK,BTK set)

Thanks

Rod

[Leander]

A 6 coach set on the Midland Division in the 1950s would most likely be BTK/TK/CK/CK/TK/BTK. This formation was continued when BR Standard stock (i.e. Mark 1s) appeared on the scene. A mix of Period 3 (Stanier) and Porthole stock would be likely, with the former outnumbering the latter.

 

Hope this is helpful.

[6959]

A 6 coach set on the Midland Division in the 1950s would most likely be BTK/TK/CK/CK/TK/BTK. This formation was continued when BR Standard stock (i.e. Mark 1s) appeared on the scene. A mix of Period 3 (Stanier) and Porthole stock would be likely, with the former outnumbering the latter.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

Thanks for the information. I have added it to my spreadsheet. It makes a Stanier CK from Hornby even more important. When Bachmann release their Porthole coaches I suspect that the CK will be a big seller.

[TerryD1471]

If you're looking for a CK and can't wait for the Bachmann porthole one due early next year, have you thought about the Dapol 60' compo. It's the old Airfix one with improved glazing and comes at a very reasonable price. I believe it's currently available in the BR lined maroon livery and not carmine & cream (blood and custard) so that may not suit. I run one in a rake with Hornby BR maroon Period 3s and it doesn't look out of place, although it obviously isn't as detailed as Hornby's offerings. Having said that, the level of detail on current Hornby vehicles is so fine (and so fragile), I almost wish they wouldn't go to so much trouble!

[BernardTPM]

I wonder how easy it would be to upgrade the composite with parts from the new-style Hornby Staniers - glazing, corridors, underframe details, etc. The Airfix coaches were pretty good when they came out and way ahead of Hornby's contemporary 57 footer range.

[leopardml2341]

I wonder how easy it would be to upgrade the composite with parts from the new-style Hornby Staniers - glazing, corridors, underframe details, etc. The Airfix coaches were pretty good when they came out and way ahead of Hornby's contemporary 57 footer range.

 

How much of a compromise are the Airfix / Dapol vehicles?

[BernardTPM]

When they first came out there was no 'compromise' between the two types, a BSK and CK as the two were correctly done to different lengths, 57 foot for the brake 60 foot for the Composite (unlike the Hornby '1978' range where the same 57 foot underframe was shared by the whole range). There were common parts like there were on the real thing - bogies, roof vents (individually fitted, not moulded in with the roof) and corridor connections. The glazing was flush, though done with the sliding vent bars as part of the body rather than moulded onto the glazing and the end handrails and roof pipes were moulded on, so not up to the current day r-t-r standards, but the models were advanced for the time (circa 1980). A corridor Third would provide all the windows you'd need, plus extra detailing for sides, ends and underframe that could be grafted over onto a prepared shell. Obviously the painting would need to be to a high standard and there's little point in improving the Airfix Brake Third, of course, as that's in the new Hornby range.

[leopardml2341]

When they first came out there was no 'compromise' between the two types, a BSK and CK as the two were correctly done to different lengths, 57 foot for the brake 60 foot for the Composite (unlike the Hornby '1978' range where the same 57 foot underframe was shared by the whole range). There were common parts like there were on the real thing - bogies, roof vents (individually fitted, not moulded in with the roof) and corridor connections. The glazing was flush, though done with the sliding vent bars as part of the body rather than moulded onto the glazing and the end handrails and roof pipes were moulded on, so not up to the current day r-t-r standards, but the models were advanced for the time (circa 1980). A corridor Third would provide all the windows you'd need, plus extra detailing for sides, ends and underframe that could be grafted over onto a prepared shell. Obviously the painting would need to be to a high standard and there's little point in improving the Airfix Brake Third, of course, as that's in the new Hornby range.

 

Thanks BernardTPM, won't dispose of mine then; treat them to a nice paint job (incl appropriate weathering) instead.

[Barry O]

You need to update the Airfix/Dapol chassis to include more detail and truss rods etc in the correct place. I have done this with some Dapol suburbans using plastruct and etches/castings from 247 and Comet and it didn't take long.

 

You could also replace the Airfix sides with etched brass ones from Comet or 247 for something completely different.

 

Don't get carried away with using Period III stock - you can have Period I and II into the early sixties.

[gwrrob]

Can anyone tell me if these coaches would be suitable for the long distance trains from the Northwest to Penzance please to run alongside GWR coaches in the postwar period. What exactly is period 3.

[Leander]

The term was coined by Essery and Jenkinson in their LMS Coaches books to classify those coaches designed in the Stanier era from 1933 which were wooden framed and steel panelled. They had large compartment windows with rounded corners and sliding ventilators. The Hornby coaches in OO are of this type.

[Holmesfeldian]

Have you any more 'specimen' formations for various periods of the ex-Midland lines please, Leander?

 

I'm modelling the Derby-Manchester route.

 

Thanks in advance.

[coachmann]

It might be easier if you give an indication of the period your are modelling. The coaches used pre Second World War over the Manchester-Derby 'Peak' route largely ex Midland Railway clerestory roof coaches and LMS Period I and II coaches with Stanier stock in the minority. Postwar and the clerestories had gone and many trains were made of of Stanier coaches with the odd Period I and II swinger added. By the 1960s trains were a mix of Staniers and BR Mk.I's.

[Holmesfeldian]

My main period of interest is the transitional steam to diesel era so ostensibley mid 1950s until decline and then closure. Having said that I would also want to run the occasional LMS 10000 in 1948 as much as a blue Peak on blue/greys!.

 

As an aside, I also would wish to run "what might have beens" from the post closure year until the early 1980s as I love the BR corporate blue era as it was what I remember with most affection (I was born a year before closure of the Peak Line).

 

Thanks again for any help with the gen.

 

I'll be starting a blog on here before too long once I've cleared the loft of all the rammel and can start the serious planning!

[65179]

Holmesfeldian,

 

Here's a few for you to be going on with:-

 

Info from robertcwp or his BR Coaching Stock forum (i.e. carriage marshalling book info):

 

September 1948. 9.0 AM Manchester Central-St Pancras was:

BFK, FK, RF, TO, CK, TK, TK, TK, BTK 

 

 Extra TO (MSO)

 

Winter 1949-50 9.0 AM Manchester Central-St Pancras was:

 BTK, CK, FK (SX), FK, RF, TO, TK, TK, BTK

 

 Extra TK (MSO)

 

Info from "Operation Midland" by Xpress Publishing:

 

1955. 9.0 AM in 1955 as:

BTK, CK, CK, FK, RF, TO, TK, TK, BTK with a BCK attached at Millers Dale.

 

 

From photos the stock used is predominantly late Period 3 (with some Porthole stock -especially the CK and BTK- added as they were introduced, and as Coachmann notes the odd period 1 and 2 coach here and there) until around 1955 at least, although Mk1s appear from around 1952.  Problem with this particular express is the 12-wheeler restaurant 1st needed and in general for St Pancras expresses the lack of a D.1968 BTK, D.2117 CK and D.2119 TK to run behind 10000 and 10001 is also an issue for a properly representative train.

 

Info from photos in my accumulated books and photos:

 

Typical Manchester-Derby slows for the early 1950s to about 1957 might be BTK, CK, BTK with either a CK, a CL, T, or TK added

 

 (Operation Midland gives the 7.24am Manchester-Derby as BTK, CK, CK, BTK) with extra coaches as required.

 

More earlier stock in these trains as you'd expect.

 

My research concentrates on 1950 so can't help you with the late 50s onwards.

 

 

Simon

[Holmesfeldian]

Excellent gen - thank-you for taking the time, it's much appreciated.

Nick

[the penguin of doom]

Hi there.

 

Just read through this thread and it reminded me of a conversion I did a few years back. It's also a blantent show off of my work so I'll apologise for that, but thought it might be of interest.....

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/11056-stanier-diag-2117-conversion/?fromsearch=1

 

..... To be honest, as soon as a RTR version comes along, I'm likely to replace this one but for now, this one fits nicely alongside its Hornby sisters.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Poor Old Bruce]

Info from "Operation Midland" by Xpress Publishing:

 

1955. 9.0 AM in 1955 as:

 

BTK, CK, CK, FK, RF, TO, TK, TK, BTK with a BCK attached at Buxton.

(Pedant mode on)

 

Can I assume that should read "BCK from Buxton attached at Millers Dale"

 

(Pedant mode off)

[BenL]

Does anyone know if the Hornby period 3 coaches in LMS livery are in prewar or postwar livery? And if they are in prewar livery, is there any chance they would have still been seen in this livery postwar?

 

Many thanks in advance for any insight on this.

[brossard]

Ben, the Hornby Period III are in the simplified livery introduced in 1934.  This didn't change for the rest of the existence of LMS.  During the war, repainting of coaches may not have been as rigorous as before.

 

In fact, the first lots of porthole coaches delivered in early 1948 were crimson lake and had LMS lining but the MXXXXX number.

 

John

[BenL]

Ben, the Hornby Period III are in the simplified livery introduced in 1934.  This didn't change for the rest of the existence of LMS.  During the war, repainting of coaches may not have been as rigorous as before.

 

In fact, the first lots of porthole coaches delivered in early 1948 were crimson lake and had LMS lining but the MXXXXX number.

 

John

Thanks very much John, that's very helpful. I will look out for a couple so I can run a north west to Cornwall express on my postwar GWR layout.

[Mallard60022]

I've got some formation info for 1957 on North West to Devon/Cornwall services.

PM me if you want to see them.

Phil.

[robertcwp]

Better than Operation Midland, here is the 9. 0 am Manchester Central-St Pancras in 1955-6 from the carriage workings:

 

0900-ManC-STP_1955-6 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Z = BR Standard (Mark I) stock; Y = gangway adaptor fitted (LMS-design) stock.

[coachmann]

The consist looks pretty well what I would expect although it is interesting to see the TO adjacent to the diner is a 56 seater with 2+2 seating rather than the lessor 2+1 seating. But I do not know what a BR Mk.I 2TK is. The make up certainly calls for a lot of gangway adapters.