Wright writes.....

[Clive Mortimore]

40 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

Most diesels are really mobile electricity generators.They are like the WCML electrics in that the axles are turned by (in most cases) electric motors but they generate their own electricity instead of having it fed to them down a long wire.

 

Anything like the WCML electrics will always have a huge advantage over steam or diesel in terms of power available for hauling trains because they do not generate their own power and don't have to lug around a great heavy means of propulsion. Malcolm Crawley used to reckon that the Deltics used around 4-500 of their horsepower just to move themselves and power all the gear on board. So only around 2,800 was available for hauling trains. He should know. He took the prototype on trials!

 

Having a crew or not is a red herring. I have seen radio controlled steam move with no crew! The difference comes in whether or not the locomotive, equipped with fuel, lubricant and out on the track as it would be in normal service, can move itself or not. Steam, diesel and battery electric locomotives can. The WCML electrics (and other similar types) could not.

 

 

 

 

 

51 years after the last Huff and Puff of a steam loco on BR and people are still damning their replacements (which themselves have been replaced). But we all know the past was better, outside privie, tin bath, press button B when making a telephone call, smog, Tri-ang train sets ......and so on.

 

Life and railways have moved on.

[Tony Wright]

7 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

51 years after the last Huff and Puff of a steam loco on BR and people are still damning their replacements (which themselves have been replaced). But we all know the past was better, outside privie, tin bath, press button B when making a telephone call, smog, Tri-ang train sets ......and so on.

 

Life and railways have moved on.

Is anyone actually damning steam's replacements, Clive? 

 

I think it's a most-interesting discussion. As for the electrics being geared for 100 mph, was that a maximum? In 1976, I went up Stoke Bank behind BALLYMOSS and we were doing 105 mph at one point - climbing! Granted, it was a light train, but I've never been so fast behind a first-generation electric. 

 

Yes, things move on. Just think, today we've got various diseases unheard of in the days of steam, plastic pollution on a huge scale, parking charges everywhere, hospital waiting lists at their longest ever, the same so for doctors, violent crime at its worst since Victorian days, school indiscipline so rife that teachers are leaving in their droves, more prisoners than ever before (yet crime still rises), murderers freed to murder again, estates which are no-go areas for decent folk (yes, there were a few of those, but not as many as today), drug abuse at its highest, respect for authority non-existent in the courts (the guilty laughing at judges!), a 'nanny state' so obsessed with 'risk-assessment' that kids no longer have the freedom of our youth, an obesity epidemic, terrorists on our streets (yes, there were 'The Troubles', but not to the same extent), folk addicted to mobile phones and, so on and so on....................................

 

Isn't it great to live in a non-steam world today? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[woodenhead]

I think I preferred it when we were discussing whether a model can have a big old Hornby coupling on it's front.

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, grahame said:

 

Surely the fireman gets his power from being fed a decent breakfast to enable him to work and shovel the coal from an external location in to the fire. Odd, as usually these day firemen put out fires rather than stoke them.

;-)

 

G

 

Interesting comment there G. Some time ago, on a local Farcebook discussion Group (Redhill), I got into a slightly dodgy discussion with a person that posted about his time as a Stoker at Redhill Loco Shed. Perfectly acceptable posts with him posting some good pics and recounting various trips around the area (that I knew really well) where he 'stoked' the loco's. I asked what stoking was as I had always known the person shovelling the coal on a steam loco being known as a 'Fireman'. Ships had Stokers! He got quite irate at this, so I departed after a couple of exchanges, not wishing to make him feel upset in any way.

So, a question if I may? Anyone else encountered steam locomen calling themselves Stokers rather than Fireman and could it be that us 'enthusiasts' used the name but the professionals used others on occasion, especially if they were ex Navy? My view is that the chap was being a bit 'imaginative' with his accounts and was possibly actually fantasising, but then I am a cynical old git, or maybe an old git that can be cynical?

I am sure I have read books where the grades of employment at Depots/Sheds were noted and Fireman was used a the official title of a certain level of experienced employee after Passed Cleaner. Happy to be corrected.

Phil 

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Fat Controller]

49 minutes ago, Pannier Tank said:

 

But they do have to lug around a Heavy Transformer!

Modern transformers are lighter than diesel engines/ alternators, even without the fuel, radiators and cooling systems etc that the diesels require.

[Clive Mortimore]

4 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Is anyone actually damning steam's replacements, Clive? 

 

I think it's a most-interesting discussion. As for the electrics being geared for 100 mph, was that a maximum? In 1976, I went up Stoke Bank behind BALLYMOSS and we were doing 105 mph at one point - climbing! Granted, it was a light train, but I've never been so fast behind a first-generation electric. 

 

Yes, things move on. Just think, today we've got various diseases unheard of in the days of steam, plastic pollution on a huge scale, parking charges everywhere, hospital waiting lists at their longest ever, the same so for doctors, violent crime at its worst since Victorian days, school indiscipline so rife that teachers are leaving in their droves, more prisoners than ever before (yet crime still rises), murderers freed to murder again, estates which are no-go areas for decent folk (yes, there were a few of those, but not as many as today), drug abuse at its highest, respect for authority non-existent in the courts (the guilty laughing at judges!), a 'nanny state' so obsessed with 'risk-assessment' that kids no longer have the freedom of our youth, an obesity epidemic, terrorists on our streets (yes, there were 'The Troubles', but not to the same extent), folk addicted to mobile phones and, so on and so on....................................

 

Isn't it great to live in a non-steam world today? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

We have longer life expectancy due to common diseases having been eradicated, like many of the lung illnesses caused by the smogs our cities had. Without cars the greedy car park owners wouldn't be making money, hence we now have parking charges. Longer waiting list in the NHS are a factor of political mishandling, as is poor workforce planning in the training of medical staff. Violent crime worse than in Victorian days...the days when it was acceptable to "give yer missus a backhander". School discipline is so bad we now have more children attaining high grade A levels than before....the two do not add up. National crime statistics have been showing a decrease over past years, I think last year there was a slight increase on the year before but the trend has been downwards. Drug abuse, stop treating junkies as criminals but as a medical problem. Addicts are supplied their drugs at inflated prices and have to commit crime to pay the criminal pushers, let them buy their drugs from the NHS they will stop committing crime. No go areas , where? Crooks have always laughed at judges. I suppose fewer industrial deaths is not really worth the "nanny state" the Daily Mail has us believe we live in. Obesity or malnutrition which was at epidemic levels amoungst working class kids pre WW2, a problem the armed forces faced in WW2 was the number of men who were unfit for service due to problems caused by long term malnutrition. Having been a solider on the streets of the UK as part of the longest operation the British Army was involved with I dispute you claim about terrorism.... as a nurse with the blood transfusion service in the 1990s the following donor venues we stopped using because they were blown up by terrorist, Natwest Building, Baltic Tower, and Canary Wharf again I dispute you claim on terrorism. 

 

I do agree about mobile phones.....but no more queuing outside the phone box in the rain.

[Dr Al]

1 minute ago, Clive Mortimore said:

. School discipline is so bad we now have more children attaining high grade A levels than before....the two do not add up.

 

Exams have been ruthlessly dumbed down, that's how.

 

Cheers,
Alan

[queensquare]

38 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Is anyone actually damning steam's replacements, Clive? 

 

I think it's a most-interesting discussion. As for the electrics being geared for 100 mph, was that a maximum? In 1976, I went up Stoke Bank behind BALLYMOSS and we were doing 105 mph at one point - climbing! Granted, it was a light train, but I've never been so fast behind a first-generation electric. 

 

Yes, things move on. Just think, today we've got various diseases unheard of in the days of steam, plastic pollution on a huge scale, parking charges everywhere, hospital waiting lists at their longest ever, the same so for doctors, violent crime at its worst since Victorian days, school indiscipline so rife that teachers are leaving in their droves, more prisoners than ever before (yet crime still rises), murderers freed to murder again, estates which are no-go areas for decent folk (yes, there were a few of those, but not as many as today), drug abuse at its highest, respect for authority non-existent in the courts (the guilty laughing at judges!), a 'nanny state' so obsessed with 'risk-assessment' that kids no longer have the freedom of our youth, an obesity epidemic, terrorists on our streets (yes, there were 'The Troubles', but not to the same extent), folk addicted to mobile phones and, so on and so on....................................

 

Isn't it great to live in a non-steam world today? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

This isn't the place to get into the debate but none of the things you list above are new, most are no worse than they have ever been and many are better - we can debate it next time we meet up!

 

.....back to little (and big) trains....

 

Jerry

[t-b-g]

55 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

51 years after the last Huff and Puff of a steam loco on BR and people are still damning their replacements (which themselves have been replaced). But we all know the past was better, outside privie, tin bath, press button B when making a telephone call, smog, Tri-ang train sets ......and so on.

 

Life and railways have moved on.

 

Sorry Clive. You have me quite wrong. I am not anti anything. I spent 20 years going round the country in the 70s and 80s spotting and photographing diesels, electrics and preserved steam and I loved them all.

 

If you read what I wrote, I didn't say anything against any type of propulsion. I just pointed out some differences between types..

 

I have lost interest in the real railways as I find them really dull nowadays from an operational point of view but things like  Deltics,  Westerns or Class 76s still make my heart go a little faster!

 

[Clive Mortimore]

7 minutes ago, Dr Al said:

 

Exams have been ruthlessly dumbed down, that's how.

 

Cheers,
Alan

Evidence?

[Dr Al]

Just now, Clive Mortimore said:

Evidence?

 

I work in higher education, and have seen it first hand.

 

Cheers,
Alan

[PaulCheffus]

1 minute ago, Dr Al said:

 

I work in higher education, and have seen it first hand.

 

Cheers,
Alan

 

Hi

 

 

That's not evidence.

 

I could say I've seen the amount of work my nieces are required to do for their O levels and I would say its far more than I ever had to do. They get set assignments via the school website even when on holiday and are expected to have it finished for the day they return to school.

 

I have recently been through a higher education course and it wasn't something I would have described as dumbed down.

 

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Tony Wright]

13 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

We have longer life expectancy due to common diseases having been eradicated, like many of the lung illnesses caused by the smogs our cities had. Without cars the greedy car park owners wouldn't be making money, hence we now have parking charges. Longer waiting list in the NHS are a factor of political mishandling, as is poor workforce planning in the training of medical staff. Violent crime worse than in Victorian days...the days when it was acceptable to "give yer missus a backhander". School discipline is so bad we now have more children attaining high grade A levels than before....the two do not add up. National crime statistics have been showing a decrease over past years, I think last year there was a slight increase on the year before but the trend has been downwards. Drug abuse, stop treating junkies as criminals but as a medical problem. Addicts are supplied their drugs at inflated prices and have to commit crime to pay the criminal pushers, let them buy their drugs from the NHS they will stop committing crime. No go areas , where? Crooks have always laughed at judges. I suppose fewer industrial deaths is not really worth the "nanny state" the Daily Mail has us believe we live in. Obesity or malnutrition which was at epidemic levels amoungst working class kids pre WW2, a problem the armed forces faced in WW2 was the number of men who were unfit for service due to problems caused by long term malnutrition. Having been a solider on the streets of the UK as part of the longest operation the British Army was involved with I dispute you claim about terrorism.... as a nurse with the blood transfusion service in the 1990s the following donor venues we stopped using because they were blown up by terrorist, Natwest Building, Baltic Tower, and Canary Wharf again I dispute you claim on terrorism. 

 

I do agree about mobile phones.....but no more queuing outside the phone box in the rain.

I'm not going into further discussions here, Clive, because this is a thread about model railways/railways. 

 

All I would say, in answer to one of your points, is why, when (to quote you) 'we now have more children attaining high grade A levels than before', do universities have to give new students courses in basic maths and English? 

[APOLLO]

Well at least The Big Boy is back in action over the pond !!

 

 

And look how well behaved the public is trackside.

 

Brit15

[Andy Hayter]

2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Jol

 

The coal may be carried on the loco but without the man with the shovel there is no means of getting the coal to where it is useful, thus rendering the loco a static object.

 

SNCF solved that problem in the 50s with mechanical stokers - so some steam locomotives do fit your model as self propelled.

[woodenhead]

5 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Well at least The Big Boy is back in action over the pond !!

 

And look how well behaved the public is trackside.

 

Brit15

And they've correctly fitted it with Kadees, wonder if they used #5s 

[Clive Mortimore]

27 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

SNCF solved that problem in the 50s with mechanical stokers - so some steam locomotives do fit your model as self propelled.

And the Swiss put pantographs on their steam locos.

[Andy Hayter]

And back to France there was a prototype steam locomotive driving a turbine to run the electric motors.

[Mike 84C]

Also in the USA. The C&O  and N&W had I believe one each.  The N&W was called the "John Henry" or maybe "Jawn Henry". Both locomotives had very short lives and  must have been a huge investment for little return. 

  On a totally different tack, I spoke with Tony some time ago to  ok, me offering some "niche" models from an estate. There are  Branchlines Midland/LMS coach kits, Gem loco body kits , Anbrico bus models. If their is any interest pleas pm me, any unsold stuff will go on the well known market  place.

           Mick

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

I'm not going into further discussions here, Clive, because this is a thread about model railways/railways. 

 

All I would say, in answer to one of your points, is why, when (to quote you) 'we now have more children attaining high grade A levels than before', do universities have to give new students courses in basic maths and English? 

Hello Tony

 

My reply was mainly triggered by your comment on terrorism.

 

8th September 1973, returning from the open event for new CEGB apprentices at Brighton power station our train into Victoria was slightly delayed. On arrival we were ushered quickly to the underground station, about 15 minutes before we arrived at Victoria an IRA bomb had gone off in the station.

 

19th May 1981 Bressbrook Landmine, one of the soldiers killed that day was a chap I knew from school days as he lived a couple of streets away on our estate. He was in the other estate gang. Later on when both of were on leave we would get drunk together as none of our old civie mates could keep up with us.

 

1st May 1999, I arrived at work to be asked to go to the Burns Unit to "special" a patient. He was a victim of the Soho pub bombing. I had to tell him his partner had died, one of the hardest jobs I done in my days as a nurse.

 

I am not sure it is on the increase.

 

Yours

 

Clive

Edited May 9, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, t-b-g said:

Most diesels are really mobile electricity generators.They are like the WCML electrics in that the axles are turned by (in most cases) electric motors but they generate their own electricity instead of having it fed to them down a long wire.

 

Anything like the WCML electrics will always have a huge advantage over steam or diesel in terms of power available for hauling trains because they do not generate their own power and don't have to lug around a great heavy means of propulsion. Malcolm Crawley used to reckon that the Deltics used around 4-500 of their horsepower just to move themselves and power all the gear on board. So only around 2,800 was available for hauling trains. He should know. He took the prototype on trials!

 

Having a crew or not is a red herring. I have seen radio controlled steam move with no crew! The difference comes in whether or not the locomotive, equipped with fuel, lubricant and out on the track as it would be in normal service, can move itself or not. Steam, diesel and battery electric locomotives can. The WCML electrics (and other similar types) could not.

 

 

 

 

Hence the term "prime mover".

[St Enodoc]

52 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

And the Swiss put pantographs on their steam locos.

 

39 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

And back to France there was a prototype steam locomotive driving a turbine to run the electric motors.

And back in England there was a loco that ran on both external (steam) and internal (diesel) combustion:

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/IC/kitson.php

 

(And I know it's bad form to use "and" to start a sentence with...).

Edited May 9, 2019 by St Enodoc

[Re6/6]

18 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

 

 The wonderful ugliness of the Kitson Still contraption and the Swiss quirky loco are crying out to be built! 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Re6/6

[Dr Al]

2 hours ago, PaulCheffus said:

 

Hi

 

 

That's not evidence.

 

I could say I've seen the amount of work my nieces are required to do for their O levels and I would say its far more than I ever had to do. They get set assignments via the school website even when on holiday and are expected to have it finished for the day they return to school.

 

I have recently been through a higher education course and it wasn't something I would have described as dumbed down.

 

 

Neither is the magnitude of work - that's not a gauge of its complexity.

 

I've seen and have been involved in the writing of the courses so have actively seen how it's dumbed down.

 

Moreover, the way exams are graded is also completely fluid, and fit to get x-number of students passing. So some can pass with a top A grade despite only getting 48% of the marks, and therefore just- passing D-grades can be awarded for as little as 25% of the mark.

 

Universities are businesses now, not the educational establishments of old.

 

But alas, this is getting OT - we should be discussing how fewer and fewer build things any more!

 

Cheers,
Alan

 

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Dr Al

[PaulCheffus]

18 minutes ago, Dr Al said:

 

Neither is the magnitude of work - that's not a gauge of its complexity.

 

Hi

 

I agree its not but that was the point I was making without hard facts the comment is meaningless. You have provided a more reasonable response above and something I wasn't aware of.

 

As you say we should get back on topic.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Edited May 9, 2019 by PaulCheffus
clarity