RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted November 20, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2012 I think this project is marvellous. The investment going on in the South West is great to see. I did all the Cornish Branchlines last year on a rover and was impressed by the volume of passengers and the number of trains. I travelled the Barnstaple line some years ago and am glad that it is being upgraded. It would be nice to see some pictures of the kit that is being used if possible it sounds as if it's a rather nice expensive machine. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2012 It would be nice to see some pictures of the kit that is being used if possible it sounds as if it's a rather nice expensive machine. I'm planning a 'Captain's Visit' in the next few days! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted November 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2012 I used to travel on the line a lot back in the 1980's and often saw the freight in Barnstaple yard plus the loco haukled pasenger services. Its a shame all thats gone but it is good to see a more frequent service especially on a Sunday as back then the first train was about 2pm in the afternoon in the winter and about mid day in the summer IIRC. It would be nice to get better stock than the bendy buses though. Even a few through trains a day from Waterloo would be great! Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted November 20, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2012 Is there any sort of market for through trains from Waterloo? And if there is could SWT actually spare a 159 for the greater part of 2 hours at the Exeter end of things? And would they be granted access given that FGW already have every available pathway taken up with their hourly service? I suspect the only significant market for such through journeys might have been on summer Saturdays when a through train did run from Paddington for some years after the general run-down of the Withered Arm. Most of the holiday business doesn't want to go to Barnstaple (it's not a resort - Croyde , Woolacombe and Ilfracombe are) so unfortunately for rail the family car is the easiest mode of A to B plus bags transport and probably arrives over the trackbed of the former GW route to Barnstaple which is now the North Devon Relief Road. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted November 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2012 Is there any sort of market for through trains from Waterloo? And if there is could SWT actually spare a 159 for the greater part of 2 hours at the Exeter end of things? And would they be granted access given that FGW already have every available pathway taken up with their hourly service? I suspect the only significant market for such through journeys might have been on summer Saturdays when a through train did run from Paddington for some years after the general run-down of the Withered Arm. Most of the holiday business doesn't want to go to Barnstaple (it's not a resort - Croyde , Woolacombe and Ilfracombe are) so unfortunately for rail the family car is the easiest mode of A to B plus bags transport and probably arrives over the trackbed of the former GW route to Barnstaple which is now the North Devon Relief Road. You are probably right but it would be nice to see, and useful when I visit once in a blue moon nowadays!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2012 Is there any sort of market for through trains from Waterloo? And if there is could SWT actually spare a 159 for the greater part of 2 hours at the Exeter end of things? And would they be granted access given that FGW already have every available pathway taken up with their hourly service? Pretty much sums up my views, Rick. SWT used to run to Paignton - but no more. Captain Kernow would have to invest quite a bit more than that already-serious-and-jolly-welcome £9m to enable more pathways to Barnstaple, but I suspect FGW would be unhelpful. And of course, SWT's business is based upon serving intermediate stations to Exeter - the London-Exeter customer is expected to use Paddington, where their journey time will be much shorter. National Railway Enquiries Journey Planner certainly takes you via Paddington, even if you try to start from Waterloo! I also infer that SWT could do with more units for the route, so those hours beyond Exeter would not help that objective at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Is there any sort of market for through trains from Waterloo? I suspect there may be - beyond the 'commute to Exeter' market then travel to London must be one of the big destinations even with the rather indirect journey - Barnstaple to London (changing at Exeter) at present is rather long winded (and if you're driving to Barnstaple station you'd be arguably better driving on to Tiverton Parkway) - Barnstaple to Waterloo at least has the benefit of (and would be marketable as) a direct service even if the journey time is a little longer - even that time disadvantage is less of an issue since they regularised the service. And if there is could SWT actually spare a 159 for the greater part of 2 hours at the Exeter end of things? And would they be granted access given that FGW already have every available pathway taken up with their hourly service? But there's the crunch - the reason for SWT's withdrawal to East of Exeter (they did also serve Plymouth, and even Penzance rather more occasionally) was to free up more trains for their core network - that need has not gone away (if anything it's likely to be worse)... On the other hand SWTs sets already spend 45 minutes of the hour idling away at Exeter, so in terms of additional sets you may be able to offer a 2 hourly service with just a single set splitting from a turning service at Exeter... As you say it would need to replace a FGW working though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted November 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2012 Pretty much sums up my views, Rick. SWT used to run to Paignton - but no more. Captain Kernow would have to invest quite a bit more than that already-serious-and-jolly-welcome £9m to enable more pathways to Barnstaple, but I suspect FGW would be unhelpful. And of course, SWT's business is based upon serving intermediate stations to Exeter - the London-Exeter customer is expected to use Paddington, where their journey time will be much shorter. National Railway Enquiries Journey Planner certainly takes you via Paddington, even if you try to start from Waterloo! I also infer that SWT could do with more units for the route, so those hours beyond Exeter would not help that objective at all. Living in Surrey (Ok not everyone lives here), its about the same journey time when you take into account crossing London from Paddington to Victoria. We can just change at Clapham Junction so a lot easier if carrying bags - and its cheaper as long as you book separately Exeter - Banrstaple and then the South East area - Exeter, unless on the rare occasion you can get a cheaper Advance ticket to Paddington. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted November 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2012 I'm going to start a sweepstake on how long from the work finishing to the closure notices being posted. It always seemed to be the way that if somewhere got repainted and spruced up it closed the next week... Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2012 I'm going to start a sweepstake on how long from the work finishing to the closure notices being posted. It always seemed to be the way that if somewhere got repainted and spruced up it closed the next week... I'll fire the Long Nines on them if they try!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I'm going to start a sweepstake on how long from the work finishing to the closure notices being posted. It always seemed to be the way that if somewhere got repainted and spruced up it closed the next week... Andi In the 1960's yes however despite the stupidity of privitiisation the likelihood of closure occurring is low. XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 But there's the crunch - the reason for SWT's withdrawal to East of Exeter (they did also serve Plymouth, and even Penzance rather more occasionally) was to free up more trains for their core network - that need has not gone away (if anything it's likely to be worse)... Ah the "official" reason, the actual reason was because it was too much trouble sorting out the orcats payments, SWT have more than enough units to still be running to Paignton and Plymouth, all you have to do is look at how many are "spare" during the day-2 159 at Clapham Yard from 0900- 1630 2 159 at Basingstoke (after running ECS from Waterloo) from 0900-1600 (these work up on a Portsmouth to Basingstoke then Basingstoke to Waterloo stopper and could be replaced with EMUs to give 2 extra units in the morning peak. 1 158 at basinstoke from 1030-1500 before running ECS to Winchester lots of 158 and 159 at Salisbury undergoing/ awaiting maintenance, several are spare/ unallocated for the whole day. If there was the (political) will then SWT would still be running through to PGN and PLY but it neatens up the franchise map if they dont. The neatening up was also the reason for SWT withdrawing the Reading to Brightons. I can see where Xerces Fobe2 is coming from where anything from new pandrol clips to complete renewal is called an "upgrade" where-as most of it is straightforward maintenance but in this case I am glad to say that, although there wont be any linespeed improvements in the short term, in the long term these works will enable quite a bit of speeding up on the line, which has to be a good thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy stroud Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 As I have said in another thread recently - those not directly involved in the industry simply do not understand the significance of the efforts made to get such works authorised. I have a feeling that one of my own posts on another thread has recently attracted this same response. This happens to be an open forum for anybody to contribute to, and not a privilege reserved purely for industry insiders. Input from all walks of life should be welcomed and not "rubbished" because you don't happen to agree with what that person has said. In any case, you don't actually know the full extent of what an individuals knowledge is on any particular subject. The work being carried out on the Barnstaple line is obviously great news and can only be welcomed, and Network Rail do seem to be genuinely spending a lot on the network generally, however the railway industry also puts out it's fair share of worthless hype that benefits from being scrutinized in the public domain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2012 Input from all walks of life should be welcomed and not "rubbished" because you don't happen to agree with what that person has said. And that's fair enough, but once someone with the appropriate knowledge has appraised everyone of the situation, information from genuine and knowledgeable sources needs to be respected (and most people on this forum are kind enough to do so). However, I'm not going to 'welcome' contributions that I know to be inaccurate, misleading or which are simply untrue. Not that I'm accusing XF of any of these, I respect his right to feel the way he does about the industry today, I just don't have to agree with him if I have reason not to. In any case, you don't actually know the full extent of what an individuals knowledge is on any particular subject. That is certainly true, and of course, cuts both ways. But one of the perils of making public pronouncements on this Open Forum is that such statements can sometimes reveal missing knowledge, as well as what is there (guilty of that myself, of course). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted November 21, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 21, 2012 Revisiting the suggestion of Waterloo - Barnstaple through trains there are other obstacles not noted above. Not least the fact that such trains would need to cross the full layout at St. Davids creating conflicts on an increasingly busy railway where every pathway is sacred. As things stand SWT can terminate in one of two platforms and reverse via the Waterloo siding allowing for an extended turn back out of the station without causing any conflict to the main lines at all. Continuing to Barnstaple would require the down main to be crossed and a pathway on the up main found. In the "Up" direction (i.e. Southern's up towards Waterloo) a pathway must be found on both up and down GW main lines thanks to the layout at Cowley Bridge Junction which causes at least 4 minutes' blockage to the up while the train comes across the layout at reduced speed. The FGW service creates the same issues when working to and from Exmouth of course but currently these are accommodated within the timetable. If there were greater pressure on the main lines that service might have to be split and the Barnstaple trains use platform 6 as they once did and Exmouth trains platform 1 with any connecting passengers required to make a trek across the station. If FGW maintain their hourly service - and I see no reason why they would not - then an all-new loop between Morchard Road and Copplestone would be required in order to pass additional trains while crossing those already in the timetable at Exeter Riverside and Umberleigh. The round trip takes over 2 hours and even with no intermediate station stops cannot be completed quicker because of the need to cross other trains on the single line. Even for just a single through train that occupies a unit for effectively three hours during which time it can almost complete a far more profitable return trip from Exeter to London. There are units idle through the middle of the day but little actual "spare" capacity; those in London are required there for the evening peak service and most of those on Salisbury depot are booked for at least routine servicing through the day. Nothing is spare at Exeter meaning if an additional duty were required the unit must come from Salisbury adding another 4 hours to the round trip. I like the idea but largely from an historical perspective as a "Southern man". Being realistic it isn't going to happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 21, 2012 I have a feeling that one of my own posts on another thread has recently attracted this same response. This happens to be an open forum for anybody to contribute to, and not a privilege reserved purely for industry insiders. Input from all walks of life should be welcomed and not "rubbished" because you don't happen to agree with what that person has said. In any case, you don't actually know the full extent of what an individuals knowledge is on any particular subject. The work being carried out on the Barnstaple line is obviously great news and can only be welcomed, and Network Rail do seem to be genuinely spending a lot on the network generally, however the railway industry also puts out it's fair share of worthless hype that benefits from being scrutinized in the public domain. As I made clear in the other thread, I am nearly a decade retired, so "insider" is a relative term - and nor did I work for NR or its ill-starred predecessor. In this case, CK's description of the scope of the works as an upgrade has been disputed, and a crude suggestion made about him and his colleagues. I have never met CK, but believe him to be a doughty fighter for his rather-unfashionable corner of NR's realm - and in this case a minor route, on which very major expenditure has now been committed. He is also a prolific and utterly positive contributor to this Forum. I stand by my words, and - trust me - my euphemistic suggestion that there may be a lack of understanding reflects a need to meet RMweb decorum rather than being my actual thoughts. Of course anyone can offer comments upon goings-on in the real railway - many do and their views are often well-informed and spot-on. Diminishing CK's key achievement for this route is another matter entirely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Revisiting the suggestion of Waterloo - Barnstaple through trains there are other obstacles not noted above. If you go back and read my post I said if it happenned it would need to REPLACE a FGW round trip as there are no empty paths on the branch in the daytime - that would mean no additional moves on and across the main line North of St Davids and no additional loops or infrastructure required. There are units idle through the middle of the day but little actual "spare" capacity; those in London are required there for the evening peak service and most of those on Salisbury depot are booked for at least routine servicing through the day. Okay - although that slightly conflicts with your earlier post suggesting there was loads of capacity that could run to Paignton and/or Plymouth and it was political will that moved those sets East... SWT have more than enough units to still be running to Paignton and Plymouth, all you have to do is look at how many are "spare" during the day Besides, the current 'no spare 158/159' situation is the present reality, but may not be in a couple of years time... Being realistic it isn't going to happen. Well, I agree that's most likely true... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 21, 2012 With regards to SWT running through to places beyond Exeter, do we not also need to consider the likelihood of the ORR supporting/sanctioning such a move? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 With regards to SWT running through to places beyond Exeter, do we not also need to consider the likelihood of the ORR supporting/sanctioning such a move? Yes, and that's probably a better reason for why it's unlikely to happen, we're no longer in the swashbuckling early days of privatisation where companies were encouraged to suggest new and exciting things either... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted November 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 21, 2012 Interesting comments above. It also makes me wonder how they can get paths to run a regular service to Okehampton i(which has been mooted for some time) if there are no spare paths on the route and at Cowley Bridge Junction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Interesting comments above. It also makes me wonder how they can get paths to run a regular service to Okehampton i(which has been mooted for some time) if there are no spare paths on the route and at Cowley Bridge Junction. Yes, I was thinking about Okehampton. If FGW continued with the Barnstaple service and SWT started with a new one to Okehampton, that would rally beef-up the service to Crediton. Depends on £££ in the end. Is there enhancement to capacity east of Yeoford? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Interesting comments above. It also makes me wonder how they can get paths to run a regular service to Okehampton i(which has been mooted for some time) if there are no spare paths on the route and at Cowley Bridge Junction. I think the major constraint on line capacity is beyond Eggesford, the time it takes a unit to get to Barnstaple and return. The current timetable shows the fastest train allowed 27 minutes Eggesford - Barnstaple (including 3 recovery minutes?) and 24 minutes Barnstaple - Eggesford, so 51 minutes, plus turn round time, means an hourly service is the best possible. Only 11 minutes is required for St Davids - Crediton, so there should be scope to fit an Okehampton service in, once past Crediton it is on its own railway. I am reminded of the thread from earlier this year with a North Devon Public Transport Users Group calling for intermediate stations to be closed in order to speed up the service to Barnstaple. If this planned work enables future linespeed increases this may go some way meet their aspirations, without closing stations. cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Endacott Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 How about deploying the displaced HSTs on the Waterloo to Barnstaple / Okehampton routes once the Bristol & South Wales electrification is completed? Is it too late to amend the upgrade to accommodate 125 mph running? Geoff Endacott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 21, 2012 There is capacity for Okehampton services, as a timetable exercise for the (apparently) now-moribund notion of DCR running passenger services into Exeter proved. These services mostly went up the bank to Central & St James Park as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think the major constraint on line capacity is beyond Eggesford, the time it takes a unit to get to Barnstaple and return. I think also between Crediton and Eggesford, IIRC in the current timetable you pass trains at both, so the route beyond Crediton is effectively full up. Shame the DCR one seems to have gone quiet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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