Brian Kirby Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Hi Everyone, My interest in SR EMUs has been rekindled by Colin Parks' exquisite models. Southern stock has never been my main area, but i have acquired quite a collection of different kits over the years, ranging from brass Bulleid 4SUBs, Tin HAL and 2HAL conversion pack, via the mostly plastic Southern Pride, to the rather more challenging and ancient MTK EPBs and even a Queen Of Sheba 4SUB. I've also got one of those Never Mind The Nonsense Bulleid-style EPB kits by Alastair Whatshisname. If i don't get on and build these now, i'll never get around to them. First off, two printed Southern Pride kits, a 4TC and a BR HAP. These kits came out going on 20 years ago, but i encountered various snags when i constructed the basic bodies. Number one problem was that several of the earlier kits came with rather "banana-shape" sides, which are nigh on impossible to correct, the worst offenders were green BEPs,CEPs,BIGs,CIGs and EPBs. Here's the motor coach from a 4BIG, note the curved sides, the curved roof is less of a problem. I've got etched sides to convert these into two more 4VEPs, after the disappointment of the Hornby model. The second problem was that i went off the printed format, the colours were rather bland and the window profile too flat, so the kits were put to one side, with a view to rebuilding with MJT etched sides. I subsequently sold off most of the BEP/CEP/EPB stock, for reasons that will be obvious. In recent years i've come up with another option, add the door detail to the sides, mask off the windows and repaint the entire livery. Here are a couple of loco-hauled coaches, with fresh paint over the printed finish. Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 Fortunately, later batches of Southern Pride kits had straighter sides, here's a 2HAP. This kit also has the revised cab front casting with the roof lip removed, i actually preferred the original with the roof cast on, for reasons that will be explained. By the way, the roofs are seen loose here. Turn the vehicles around and the other sides are blue-grey, which was just me swapping sides around, to depict two liveries per unit. I haven't yet decided, whether to repeat both liveries, it might end up all-blue? Ignoring the instructions, this is my preferred method of roof construction, i chop off about one inch ( second rib ) and glue it permanently to the cab ends, thus forming a very strong end section, where the whitemetal is joined to the plastic sides. The main section of roof is held on by the supplied screws and as per the instructions. Yes, you end up with a slight join line on the roof, but i think the cab end is less likely to fall apart. Incidentally, the sticky tape over the cabside windows, inside and out, is to protect them from the superglue used on the ends. Again this goes against the instructions, but i don't like epoxy resin full stop or impact glue in this situation. The roof ribs will be mostly shaved off, although i will leave a suggestion of weld lines and the over-deep solebars will be corrected. BK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Hi Brian, This looks like an interesting building programme and it is the first time I have seen examples of some of the Southern Pride models shown by you in the opening posts. Perhaps you already know, but if you convert the 4 BIG to a 4 VEP, the motor bogies would need changing to the Mk.6 type. I was told that Hornby 4 VEP Mk.6 motor bogie sides are available as spares, but do not know the part numbers. The 2 HAP in two liveries looks interesting too. The printed sides seem to be more convincing on this kind of stock. The later 2 HAP units were fitted with Commonwealth type bogies. I have a spare pair of Bachmann ones if they are any use to you. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 These EMU's are looking good . The cab fronts are whitemetal - have you considered using the Replica front end from the MLV which I think are better? http://www.replicarailways.co.uk/spares-and-accessories/spares Scroll down to view XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted January 3, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2013 Nice tip about the 1" roof to the cab of the 2HAPs - I think I'll copy this when I get around to my Southern Pride 4VEP kit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Nice tip about the 1" roof to the cab of the 2HAPs - I think I'll copy this when I get around to my Southern Pride 4VEP kit. I use then for my Class 501's they look good and they are not expensive XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 The printed sides seem to be more convincing on this kind of stock. Colin, the printed sides are printed onto thin self-adhesive vinyl of a suitable colour from which the windows are cut out the whole then applied to the clear side, so you get a slight 'step' to define the window edge. For a green unit the vinyl is green, for blue/grey light grey, etc. I had hoped to get N Gauge ones cut this way, but the lack of supply of suitable clear shells from Farish scuppered the plan. Robo cutters do a similar job, but sides done with them are often on a quite thick white vinyl that means everything is edged white. Won't suit much other than a few Networker designs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 Hi Colin, Xerces, Welly and Bernie, Yes, quite right about the motor bogies, many thanks for the offer, but i've got spare Lima 73 mouldings, that actually came with other Southern Pride kits, slicing the sandboxes off is of course a delicate job. The cab castings pre-date the Replica cab, which is a good suggestion, but they are well and truly stuck on now, so i will make the best of them for the time being. I'm also a big fan of superglue, which if used carefully, can be a great help. For greater strength on the inside of a joint, i use layers of kitchen towel tissue, which is then dripped with superglue, this spreads quickly across the tissue and joint. Obviously, care has to be taken with the fumes near glazing, i find tape or rubber solution protects it, but has to be left in place overnight, i haven't tried the "fumeless" variety. Another big advantage with superglue, is speed of application and assembly, no mixing, no long wait to cure, plus a longer joint life, but don't breathe in the fumes! I read just the other day, that the actor Robson Green uses superglue to hold his dentures in, i wouldn't fancy doing that ( not that i have to anyway! ) and is probably dangerous. I went right off epoxy resin years ago, the resin is nasty stuff and can give one a very bad raw skin rash for months, plus the stuff doesn't seem to last, it goes rubbery and joints can fall apart years later. Regarding the printed sides, they look much better when the door lines are scored and the door detail is added, however the window glass would be straight on the prototype and more importantly, the door droplights should be more deeply recessed, but that would be too much work to correct. I would regard these units as, not for showcase scrutiny, but as working "layout models". Cheers, Brian ( 4TC pics coming up ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Hi Guys.<br /><br />Happy New Year.<br /><br />My experience of Southern Pride is that the colour is printed on the vinyl and is very easily removed using fingers coated in Mek. Alternatively, use less Mek and get your fingerprints in the paint on the carriage side to prove they are yours!<br /><br />My tip for fitting door handles etc., is to drill through the sides before fitting to the chassis. Countersink on the rear and use Araldite (in the countersink depression) to fix in place.<br /><br />I once used superglue to fix weights inside a coach. The side immediately fogged over white. I managed to clear this with lots of polishing with Perspex Polish.<br /><br /><br />Best of luck<br /><br />Dave Smith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Regarding the printed sides, they look much better when the door lines are scored and the door detail is added, however the window glass would be straight on the prototype and more importantly, the door droplights should be more deeply recessed, but that would be too much work to correct. I would regard these units as, not for showcase scrutiny, but as working "layout models". Cheers, Brian ( 4TC pics coming up ) True, Brian, though if the curve were correct it would work well for a lot of Bullied stock where the glass actually is curved! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 Good point Bernie, but perhaps we are worrying unnecessarily? I wondered if a good way of cheating with the door droplights, could be to draw a black line around the window surround, suggesting depth? A question for Xerces, does the Replica cab roof profile match the Southern Pride roof? I forgot to mention earlier, that when building kits or converting RTR loco-hauled coaches, i always seem to end up with a surplus of Commonwealth bogies! BK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 A question for Xerces, does the Replica cab roof profile match the Southern Pride roof? /quote] To be honest I do not know however I will be seeing Godfrey on Saturday and I will ask him. The cab end profile is a very good match for the Bachmann Mk 1 suburban coaches as cab be seen on the my Class 501's XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 When i upgraded the loco-hauled coaches, i drilled all the necessary holes for door and grab handles, i also drilled for door hinges, which were fashioned from crimped wire and glued in. I have just repeated this on the 2HAP, but boy, was that hard work with all those doors, it's now festooned with about 200 holes! It's easier on express stock, but i'm wondering if i'll just do the hinges from glued-on plastic strip. One advantage of using the drill and wire method, is that they won't fall off, although the paint can chip off them. Since Bachmann already have their 2EPB and are producing a DEMU for Kernow, a 2HAP is likely to appear anytime soon, using one car from each. I would wager that they opt for one of the early series 2HAPs, Colin has already read my mind, my HAP could be a later build with Commonwealth bogies, just to be different. The last two batches also seem to have plainer roof detail, with little or no conduit, the very last batch had long angled rainstrips and different cab fronts, so i might go fior the penultimate batch. Here's the part-built 4TC, main body work is done, the kits do require some fettling, particularly the fit of the roofs. The underframe truss is made up from two longditudinals and five cross-members, when set hard, it is then affixed to the floor. The kits do come with a multitude of very nice plastic EMU underframe fittings, but we haven't got that far yet. The bogies are cast sideframes glued to blank nylon bogie blocks, which run extremely freely. I think the sideframes will need a few tweaks, like adding the torsion bracket and extra damper, although you can probably get them now as an option. BK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Hi Brian, The 4 TC looks very good. It'll look very nice with a 33/1 in front or behind. Those brackets and dampers you mentioned adding to the 4 TC's B4 bogies are available from Southern Pride. Here are some fitted to a Bachmann bogie (I think the addition of these parts makes it a B5 bogie, more or less.): You do touch on the kit-builder's dilemma re. the BR 2 HAP and so on: What to make that isn't going to be available soon as an RTR model! The later 2 HAP sounds a safe bet, as you point out. It would be nice to see some shots of your work on the door/side detailing. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 I've strengthened the cab ends in a similar fashion to the 2HAP, by permanently mounting a short section of roof here, but of course the cabs have domed ends here. Before any masking and painting, i intend to fit SP stick-on window frames as per prototype rebuilds, these will also give greater depth to the sides. Another inherent problem with SP kits is getting the ride height correct, there is provision for large 14mm or small 12mm wheels, the latter is used on the 4TC, but they still seem to come out standing too tall. To this end i slice off about 1mm from the bogie bosses and chamfer the ends for vertical movement. One boss on each coach can be chamfered all around to give a basic form of compensation, which amongst other things, will help avoid body wobble. The kits are designed to take a captive 8BA nut in the floor above, then the bogie is screwed on from below. Experience has shown, that the nuts tend to work loose and the screws tend to vibrate off, causing potential disaster when the bogie falls off at speed. So nowadays i reverse the set-up, with the screw glued-in facing down and the bogie held by the nut, so when running, if the nut comes off, the bogie is still held by the downward screw. These next two pics show the ride height problem, the car on the left is lowered, the original height is on the right. Another item to rectify, is the depth of the SP solebars, which need thinning down. This will also restore the correct bogie to solebar spacing. I've already removed all the blessed over-size roof ribs, leaving a suggestion of a welded join line. This was a good job to do whilst watching Match Of The Day. BK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 Hi Colin, Sorry, i just missed your last post while i was busy posting the above words and pictures. Those add-on SP parts look really good, which is even better than replacing the whole sideframe. The trailer bogies can be confusing, usually quoted as B5(S), which seems to fall between the light B4 and the heavy-duty B5 used on loco-hauled stock. The B5(S) seems to be a B5 frame with some B4 features like the round horizontal torsion bar in the middle, plus the extra bracket and damper, whereas a normal B5 has a square section torsion bar. The more you delve into it, the more complicated it can get, there are several other B4 and B5 derivatives, with different rate springs, etc. I have toyed with the idea of a dedicated 33/1 permanently coupled to one of the DTS vehicles, complete with jumpers all connected. Mad or what? Trouble is, that would stop me coupling it up to my soon to be built 4REP, plus second SP 4TC. Then there's the brass MJT 4TCs to build after that . . . . Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Hi Brian, The adjusted ride-height of the l/h 4 TC looks just right, given that the solebar is to be thinned. I wish I could have done that on my 4 CIG, but Bachmann bogies are harder to alter than the ones you are using. The roofs are all the better for the removal of the ribs. Why do manufacturers represent weld lines on roofs with ridges that look like 2 x 1 battens?! I shall be off-line for a few days, so looking forward to catching up with your endeavours next week. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I have toyed with the idea of a dedicated 33/1 permanently coupled to one of the DTS vehicles, complete with jumpers all connected. Mad or what? Trouble is, that would stop me coupling it up to my soon to be built 4REP, plus second SP 4TC. Then there's the brass MJT 4TCs to build after that . . . . A possible solution? http://www.first4magnets.com/f305---1mm-dia-x-1mm-thick-n42-neodymium-magnet---0025kg-pull-x100-a1y-5-p.asp#productreviews Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 For the current Class 501, I am bulding, I am looking at putting working jumpers for the lights between the coaches, these will be based on the jumpers on the real units and I will be uisibg SIL IC mounts fo these with fine flexible wire links. Not sure how well it will work but worth a try! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stadman Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 A possible solution? http://www.first4magnets.com/f305---1mm-dia-x-1mm-thick-n42-neodymium-magnet---0025kg-pull-x100-a1y-5-p.asp#productreviewsJust bought a bunch of 1 x 1mm magnets from ebay (100 at about 4 quid inc' post). Guys magnets seller Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 4, 2013 Author Share Posted January 4, 2013 The two-part cab castings on the 4TC are pretty good, MJT i believe, but something didn't look quite right. After checking various prototype photos, i identified the problem to be the separate gangway. I wondered if i had mounted it too low, but the lower buffing plate was in the correct position. This could only mean that the gangway casting was too short and didn't reach high enough to the roof dome and the headcode box was too low, drastic surgery was required. Compare the model cab with a real 1963-type 4-VEP cab below, from Robert Carroll's Flickr album, 4TCs used the same design. 3576_WPark_3-4-05_M by robertcwp, on Flickr This next pic shows the original to the right and a modified to the left, gangway casting cut in two, things line up properly now, but plenty of filling to do. For the other end i made the cut higher up, which might be stronger, the gap is about 1.5 mm, plus material lost in the cut. Trouble is, now i'll have to do this to every BIG,CIG,REP,VEP and 4TC! Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 5, 2013 Author Share Posted January 5, 2013 Incidentally, i measured the height of the inside of the original 4TC gangway casting, it was 23mm, which is 5'9" in real life. So a lot of passengers would have to duck down to pass through. My modified gangway has an internal height of just over 25mm, which is 6'3", i wonder what the prototype headroom was? I hope Mike Trice isn't reading this! BK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Hi Brian, The sets are looking good. That is a neat solution to the corridor connection problem on these ends. I wish I had thought of it when I did my 4Cig. If you use a fillet of plastic it may save you some filler. Looking forward to seeing your progress. Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 A question for Xerces, does the Replica cab roof profile match the Southern Pride roof? /quote]To be honest I do not know however I will be seeing Godfrey on Saturday and I will ask him. The cab end profile is a very good match for the Bachmann Mk 1 suburban coaches as cab be seen on the my Class 501'sXF As promised I spoke with Godfrey today and he confirmed that Replica MLV's cab ends so match the roof profile of Southern Pride kits XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 6, 2013 Author Share Posted January 6, 2013 ame="Xerces Fobe2" post="899678" timestamp="1357247458"] As promised I spoke with Godfrey today and he confirmed that Replica MLV's cab ends so match the roof profile of Southern Pride kits XF Thanks XF/Nigel, That's very useful info and worth remembering, i'll bear-it-mind for future builds. Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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