Where are the Hornby models?

[gwrrob]

 l wont be dissapointed this Christmas I asked for socks from everyone.

 

They spoil you don't they. I'm wishing on a star myself.

[Andy Hayter]

So Hornby is facing troubles with it's supply from China.....

Dapol is (see the image below)

Bachmann?? Anyone knows?

Hornby's Intl brands??  Anyone knows?

And what about ViTrains.... They were supposed to release two Large Logo 47s, a couple of 37s and one more 47 in POLICE livery....

 

Everyone seems to be facing delays.

 

Hornby International - see my posting a few pages ago.  Hornby Jouef have issued a wealth of models over the summer; however this may be part of a strategy, since the French market seems to be less driven by Christmas.  It may be our riches in the summer may be followed by a winter drought as production shifts towards  a Christmas orientated UK market.  The list presented above would certainly suggest so.

[Andy Hayter]

I'm not a finescale modeller but still wouldn't want that 2013 wagon if they were giving them away Andy.Something much better could be made instead. 

 

I don't disagree I would not want one either but note I used finescale in inverted commas - trying to indicate not just those in EM or P4 but OO modellers in general.

 

We are still outnumbered by collectors plus family members who will buy little  Johnny (or even Granddad)a nice wagon for Christmas.

 

I just put "Hornby wagon 2009" into Ebay.co.uk and came up with prices up to £49.99.  Gobsmacking but true.  There are clearly (other) people out there who will pay good money for the annual wagon.  And I do agree with the original description of TAT - but it is TAT that is making bucks.

[gwrrob]

 

I just put "Hornby wagon 2009" into Ebay.co.uk and came up with prices up to £49.99.  Gobsmacking but true.  There are clearly (other) people out there who will pay good money for the annual wagon.  And I do agree with the original description of TAT - but it is TAT that is making bucks.

 

Yes, no accounting for taste.I just typed in Hornby cr*p and got just the one listing.I expected thousands.

[Ravenser]

I don't disagree I would not want one either but note I used finescale in inverted commas - trying to indicate not just those in EM or P4 but OO modellers in general.

 

We are still outnumbered by collectors plus family members who will buy little  Johnny (or even Granddad)a nice wagon for Christmas.

 

I just put "Hornby wagon 2009" into Ebay.co.uk and came up with prices up to £49.99.  Gobsmacking but true.  There are clearly (other) people out there who will pay good money for the annual wagon.  And I do agree with the original description of TAT - but it is TAT that is making bucks.

 

The annual wagon may well be a particularly lucrative item for the "collector" market - relatively cheap for the collector (compared with locos , DMUs, or even coaches) but self defining itself as a series . It's not a complete set unless you have every year, so once you've decided to collect the wagons you have to keep buying  them - every single one, regardless of any possible scale merit.

 

As a result I don't think that you can generalise as to the size of the strict "collector" market relative to the toy sector or the "modeller" market, based on the annual wagon.  Especially in terms of sales value, and profit value.

 

And the "modeller" market has several sub sectors, of which "finescale" (strictly defined) is only one. There's the RTR modeller, the finescale modeller, and the "collector without meaning to" - the latter sub-sector being those folk who are amassing a large collection of models - generally locos - for use on a project which they fully intend to build - one day in the future. In the mean time an ever larger stack of untouched models sits in boxes (Human nature and optimism being what it is, this is very easy to do...)

 

Having spent a certain amount of time helping on a society stand , I have a strong impression of the proportion of folk at shows who are strictly RTR modellers, and who feel even building a wagon kit is an unrealistic ambition - it's certainly a majority. But a quick look at this thread will show that people like that buy a significant number of new locos and other models each year , and though they are underrepresented on RMweb relative to the hobby as a whole (and especially in terms of postings) we have a lot of them here

 

Even by value, I suspect the strict "collector" market is much smaller than the modeller market, but the annual wagon is a key product for it, and Hornby understandably have to get it out  . They simply cannot take a year off

['CHARD]

I wonder how much I could charge for hypnotherapy to cure this condition of buying the annual Hornby wagon....

[Legend]

Did the loco fail the drop test?

Did the box insert containing the loco fail?

Did the box itself fail?

Did the carton containing 'x' number of boxes of models fail?

Did the outer carton containing the consignment fail?

Is the failure point the same for every model?

Does the packaging need to be redesigned or does the model itself need adapting?

Maybe they did raise it as an issue, then realised that maybe the solution isn't a quick fix.

Mark

No sorry , don't accept this. Bottom line is we are told packaging failed , I would therefore expect the company to be alert to the issue and make sure it didn't recurr. And before anyone says I don't understand complexities, I work in Supply Chain, I have had an issue with packaging which got sorted for next delivery, otherwise someone would have been having a word in my shell like!

[Trains&armour]

 

 the "collector without meaning to" - the latter sub-sector being those folk who are amassing a large collection of models - generally locos - for use on a project which they fully intend to build - one day in the future. In the mean time an ever larger stack of untouched models sits in boxes (Human nature and optimism being what it is, this is very easy to do...)

 

 

Yes....

[robmcg]

Reflecting on the list of expected/hoped-for arrivals, it is clear that most or all of these models must have already been produced, and would be at packing and shipping stage at least.

 

Presumably there is someone in Hornby who could give retailers at least an indication of the reliability of these expectations, or maybe there is a system whereby Margate doesn't believe a delivery until they see it unpacked, counted and checked, before issuing anything more solid than a 'hope'.

 

Talk about Christmas wishes!

 

edit; just finished this pic of 'Last Days BR Steam'... a Black 5 from Carlisle 12B not long before withdrawal in 4/68, model by Hornby, weathering by linesideandlocos, photo by me. oops, still has old emblem, must have been an obscure Midland shed... in some ways the model represents Hornby quite well, perhaps.

 

[The Stationmaster]

Reflecting on the list of expected/hoped-for arrivals, it is clear that most or all of these models must have already been produced, and would be at packing and shipping stage at least.

 

Presumably there is someone in Hornby who could give retailers at least an indication of the reliability of these expectations, or maybe there is a system whereby Margate doesn't believe a delivery until they see it unpacked, counted and checked, before issuing anything more solid than a 'hope'.

 

Talk about Christmas wishes!

There was a story a year or so back emanating, I understand from a Hornby rep, who reckoned they hadn't got a clue what was in the container until they opened it at Margate  (although it might just have been his way of dealing with retailers who kept saying 'But the Hornby website said it was due in Margate on ....')

 

 

 

 

Even by value, I suspect the strict "collector" market is much smaller than the modeller market, but the annual wagon is a key product for it, and Hornby understandably have to get it out  . They simply cannot take a year off

I have wondered if the number of 'Great Gathering' sets might give a clue to the size of the real hard core of the R number collector market although some past limited edition locos have been produced in a batch of either 1,000 or occasionally 2,000.  One model shop I now has up to 30 of them on his 'regulars' list but I don't think all of them buy everything and I think that might be less than a handful in his case - I've only ever knowingly come across a couple but they literally did buy one of every R number as it was issued, including track and accessoriesbut you can tell it was a while back as one of them had his 'standing order' at Eames in Reading.

[Mike at C&M]

R4522A,     BR  GRESLEY SURBURBAN 3RD BRAKE,    01/10/2013

R4537,      SR UNCONVERTED OPEN THIRD COACH,    25/12/2013

Both delivered into C&M on October 2nd!

[7013]

I am intrigued by these packaging drop tests Hornby appear to change their packaging quite frequently, and have now adopted a similar package to Bachmann. It is a shame that for want of decent packaging a new model can be delayed. Perhaps more R&D on packaging is needed rather than just a drop test after the model is ready.

[micklner]

Re last post . Probably a easy excuse for non arrival.

 

 

 

Just arrived via a Modelfair email. Patience starts to win .

 

Hornby R4568 BR Gresley 61'6' 3rd Class Maroon. £38.75 Hornby R4518A LNER Gresley (Non Vestibuled) Suburban 3rd Brake £39.99 Heljan 2601 Class 26 D5326 BR green Small yellow panel £57.50 Hornby R4541 East Coast Standard open Mk4. £22.00 Hornby R3183 Arriva Trains Class 67 £107.50 Hornby R4567 BR Gresley 61'6' 1st Class Maroon £38.75 Hornby R4574 LNER Thompson Brake 3rd Coach £39.50 Hornby R6643A BR Shunters Truck (Park Royal) £8.24 Hornby R6643A BR Shunters Truck (Park Royal) £8.24

[Ian Hargrave]

All of what Hornby say may indeed be true......but the sad point is that we are sceptical of what we are ( consistently ) told .a case of 'crying wolf',perhaps...In China it may be a case of 'losing face'. Here it's more a case of 'losing faith' All of this dissatisfaction would disappear with a policy of transparency ...and consistency....from Margate.

 

There is much to rejoice in what we have been promised....but it is becoming increasingly difficult to keep that in mind.With the eventual arrival of the 'goodies',let's hope this disgruntled mindset evaporates.Meanwhile.......keep the faith....

[7013]

Good to see a few arrivals at Modelfair, let us hope the trickle turns into a steady flow (A raging torrent would be too much to hope for!).

[The Stationmaster]

Both delivered into C&M on October 2nd!

I refer  you, sir, to my comment in the post immediately above yours and which read - 

 

There was a story a year or so back emanating, I understand from a Hornby rep, who reckoned they hadn't got a clue what was in the container until they opened it at Margate  (although it might just have been his way of dealing with retailers who kept saying 'But the Hornby website said it was due in Margate on ....')

[Mike at C&M]

I refer  you, sir, to my comment in the post immediately above yours and which read - 

 

There was a story a year or so back emanating, I understand from a Hornby rep, who reckoned they hadn't got a clue what was in the container until they opened it at Margate  (although it might just have been his way of dealing with retailers who kept saying 'But the Hornby website said it was due in Margate on ....')

And this was exactly what crossed my mind when the post was made.

Considering my list of arrival dates is only a couple of days old, we are already questioning if this list has any accuracy to it.

 

Good to see a few arrivals at Modelfair, let us hope the trickle turns into a steady flow (A raging torrent would be too much to hope for!).

The end of September and the end of March will always see a flurry of items being released. This coincides with the end of the financial half-year end and full year end. An attempt to lift the reported sales to shareholders.

[andyman7]

I think someone is telling porkie's regarding the packing it's the second time we have heard this (once bitten!), there are now so many possibilities as to why items are not on the shelf everyone is best guessing. 

The 'drop test' is unique for each new moulding as it ensures that the foam or clear plastic liner has been designed well enough to protect the fine detail of a specific model. Just because it works for one model does not mean that it will work for a different one.

Who remembers the first batch of Heljan 47s where the clear plastic lid to the tray broke the bufferbeam footsteps off under compression? I'm more than happy that they test this aspect and rectify it if it doesn't work.

[Ravenser]

I refer  you, sir, to my comment in the post immediately above yours and which read - 

 

There was a story a year or so back emanating, I understand from a Hornby rep, who reckoned they hadn't got a clue what was in the container until they opened it at Margate  (although it might just have been his way of dealing with retailers who kept saying 'But the Hornby website said it was due in Margate on ....')

 

Having worked in shipping , this sounds to me like a situation where any container shipment (or groupage alternative, or airfreight) will be made up of multiple different models - and Hornby at Margate aren't ever exactly sure how the Chinese factory will be making up a given box , or what items will be consigned to groupage as overspill. They may be 90% certain what's in the box on the water  in terms of R numbers , but there's that last 10% which may not be quite as anticipated  

 

As the SR Unconverted Open Third has turned up unexpectedly, someone may like to try to work out what anticipated early October item didn't make it into that container....... It might not be British outline , or even model railways , of course

[Ravenser]

 

 

I have wondered if the number of 'Great Gathering' sets might give a clue to the size of the real hard core of the R number collector market although some past limited edition locos have been produced in a batch of either 1,000 or occasionally 2,000.  One model shop I now has up to 30 of them on his 'regulars' list but I don't think all of them buy everything and I think that might be less than a handful in his case - I've only ever knowingly come across a couple but they literally did buy one of every R number as it was issued, including track and accessoriesbut you can tell it was a while back as one of them had his 'standing order' at Eames in Reading.

 

Some comments I've seen in the past suggest that "collectors" may follow a theme , like stamp collectors - so someone might be collecting all the coaches , or all the Gresleys or the Maunsells , or all ex LNER locos . Collecting every R number of everything would be staggeringly expensive - but collecting a full set of the annual wagons would be a pretty cheap theme  (As would the PO wagons,  though those could be run on a layout - especially a pre-war layout - quite sensibly from time to time)

 

The "every R number" collectors could be in the low hundreds , and the whole display case "collector" market could easily be under 10,000 individuals . Whereas RMweb alone has over 20,000 members , and we know that  forum members are definitely a minority in the hobby, and quite probably below 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 as a proportion. Similarly there are individual magazines with circulations in the 30,000-45,000 bracket.  

 

Everything suggests that the number of modellers - including those who don't go beyond buying RTR , but have or are building layouts - must be at least 5x and probably as much as 10x greater than the number of display case collectors. While the average individual spend of a collector could be several times the average spend of a modeller , it still looks as if the modeller market should be substantially greater by value than the collector market 

 

Given that the toy trainset sector is the low priced end of the market, it is quite possible that the "modeller market" could be over 50% of the RTR market by value

[The Stationmaster]

Having worked in shipping , this sounds to me like a situation where any container shipment (or groupage alternative, or airfreight) will be made up of multiple different models - and Hornby at Margate aren't ever exactly sure how the Chinese factory will be making up a given box , or what items will be consigned to groupage as overspill. They may be 90% certain what's in the box on the water  in terms of R numbers , but there's that last 10% which may not be quite as anticipated  

 

As the SR Unconverted Open Third has turned up unexpectedly, someone may like to try to work out what anticipated early October item didn't make it into that container....... It might not be British outline , or even model railways , of course

Which poses the question 'what about the paperwork for both stock control/audit and the customs declaration?'.  Whoever packs the box - be it factory or groupage - they must surely list the contents even if it is only 'Hornby package xyz' (but the factory will presumably have a list of what they put into package xyz)?  It all seems terribly hit and miss - let alone open to all sorts of other problems - if there isn't a clear list of what has been shipped in order for it to be checked against what arrives, and is paid for; all of that is a most basic part of invoicing and stock control in my view.

 

And it is simple to send a list from anywhere in the modern world to anywhere else in the modern world Package xyz contains so & so and was loaded to container number 123 consigned to so & so on x date - then tracking is simple (allegedly). If I was spending thousands on buying whatever I would want documentation to cover what has been sent so that I can make sure it arrives - are Hornby as fussy as I might be?

[Legend]

17 pages of comment since 17/09. Most of it sheer supposition. I am guilty of adding to it!   Number of manufacturers, Volume of models , drop tests etc. But the critical point of my posting is that these 17 pages are a result of complete non communication from Hornby. Left in a vacuum people come of with their own theories / scenarios.

 

How about a monthly update along the lines of "Just arrived at Margate R4522A Gresley Suburban Brake Third, R4537 SR Unconverted Open Third .  The latest arrival dates for the following are............. etc etc"  A bit of proactive communication might just get a few of us back on board!

[Andy Hayter]

Which poses the question 'what about the paperwork for both stock control/audit and the customs declaration?'.  Whoever packs the box - be it factory or groupage - they must surely list the contents even if it is only 'Hornby package xyz' (but the factory will presumably have a list of what they put into package xyz)?  It all seems terribly hit and miss - let alone open to all sorts of other problems - if there isn't a clear list of what has been shipped in order for it to be checked against what arrives, and is paid for; all of that is a most basic part of invoicing and stock control in my view.

 

And it is simple to send a list from anywhere in the modern world to anywhere else in the modern world Package xyz contains so & so and was loaded to container number 123 consigned to so & so on x date - then tracking is simple (allegedly). If I was spending thousands on buying whatever I would want documentation to cover what has been sent so that I can make sure it arrives - are Hornby as fussy as I might be?

 

Customs declaration - I need to check the International customs(HS)  numbers, but I am pretty certain ALL models will come under one declaration number - sorry could not resist and it looks as if they all fall under HS 9503.  That is all customs require - anywhere in the world

 

Content list - possibly declared in Chinese (Mandarin) - and remember even our Arabic based numbers (1,2,3, etc.) mean nothing to the Chinese.  The freight forwarder will then make a translation for his client.  One thing you can be sure of is the freight forwarder knows about as much about model railways and Hornby products as I know quantum mechanics and their impact on interstellar space travel.   Translations are likely to be, shall we say, somewhat open to interpretation - I am sure you will have seen plenty of web examples of even non-technical Chinese to English, which have us either totally mystified or rolling on the floor in tears of laughter.

 

Next complication: conditions of sale - feeling sleepy - do a scan on INCOTerms 2010.  Depending on the internationally recognised sales terms used will then lead you to who is responsible for the shipping and who pays for it (not necessarily the same).  Guessing that the most likely terms will be CIF (Carriage, Insurance and Freight)  UK port - maybe (but improbably) Margate - The Chinese producers (note plural - so each of the 5, 6 or 7 that we are led to believe exist will have its own operation controlling this and each is likely to do it differently) manage the freight, booking of containers, shipment to port and carriage to the named port - usually using a third party.  The freight forwarder (if CIF then chosen by the shipper - so if each company only has one freight forwarder we could have between 5 and 7 freight forwarders - and I guess some producers will have more than one freight forwarder - especially if the final production and packing units are geographically separate - so one say for Shanghai and a completely different one for the industrial zone near Hong Kong and maybe a third for Hong Kong itself).

 

The freight forwarder then makes the shipping bookings with the shipping lines ( so for European destinations probably a choice of 4 major European Groups, at least 2 favoured Chinese lines plus perhaps some American and certainly Arabic and Indian lines).  They also organise the delivery of empty containers to the factory and their pick up for delivery to the Chinese port.  Shipping is organised but depending on whether we are paying premium freight or normal shipping we may somehow miss out boat, even though everything was at the docks in good time.  Upon loading the freight forwarder will provide details ( officially called Bill of Lading) of what is being shipped in which container with which shipping line and to which port.  (And remember my comment above about how the freight forwarder will translate the shippers manifest into English - "It's English Jim, but not as we know it".)

 

The ship sets sail - and now the black hole of knowledge.  There are container tracking systems, but in my experience at least, they are lacking in detail and accuracy.  They rely on individuals recording each action for each container - and the big ships can now carry 13000 20 foot containers each.  I have personal experience of containers arriving at European port which according to the tracking system are still in the shipping port!  Some systems for some lines are better than others, but there is intense competition between lines and for example Maersk may not get information for CGM-CMA (even though they have it) and vice versa. 

 

The bill of lading will indicate the cargo - which may be no more accurate than "models", container numbers, and arrival port and ETA - which may not be in Europe even, and probably will not be in the UK.  Most direct deliveries from Asia go to major Continental European ports and only a relatively few divert to UK ports.  So the ship berths in  say Tangier, Malta, Valencia, Hamburg, Antwerp or even Dubai and the containers are off loaded.  If this is recorded in the tracking system we can consider this as a bonus - more often than not it will not be.  The containers will be at different points in the "stack" - some will be front row top (and easy to get) and some will be bottom row in the middle ( and require 40 movements to get to the container you want.

 

The containers then wait for a suitable shuttle vessel to the UK.  The 12 containers shipped on the original manifest from China may end up on half a dozen different shuttle boats arriving at different UK ports over a period of several weeks - Felixstowe, Thamesport, Southampton, maybe even Teesport or Hull.  They clear customs - remember just one code and one import tariff (possibly zero) so still no idea what has arrived.  Hornby will probably be using a clearing agent for this, but like the freight forwarder, be assured they also know SFA about model railways.  The clearing agent may well organise freight to Margate and the container arrives and is opened and there is a Chinese version of Cilla Black saying "Surplise, surplise!!"

 

So to sum up and to give a rough idea:

6 producers

in say 8 different geographical locations

using say 15 freight forwarders

who patronise 10 shipping lines

sailing to 6 "near locations"

and then transhipping to 5 UK ports for collection and delivery to Margate.

 

I think that is in excess of 200 000 combinations - or put another way theoretically no 2 deliveries will be the same.  It is no wonder that Hornby do not know what is going to arrive in the detail we would like to think is possible.

 

Oh and I used to spend millions on imports and it never got any better than this - and my boss could never understand why either.

[stewartingram]

Customs declaration - I need to check the International customs(HS)  numbers, but I am pretty certain ALL models will come under one declaration number - sorry could not resist and it looks as if they all fall under HS 9503.  That is all customs require - anywhere in the world

 

Content list - possibly declared in Chinese (Mandarin) - and remember even our Arabic based numbers (1,2,3, etc.) mean nothing to the Chinese.  The freight forwarder will then make a translation for his client.  One thing you can be sure of is the freight forwarder knows about as much about model railways and Hornby products as I know quantum mechanics and their impact on interstellar space travel.   Translations are likely to be, shall we say, somewhat open to interpretation - I am sure you will have seen plenty of web examples of even non-technical Chinese to English, which have us either totally mystified or rolling on the floor in tears of laughter.

 

Next complication: conditions of sale - feeling sleepy - do a scan on INCOTerms 2010.  Depending on the internationally recognised sales terms used will then lead you to who is responsible for the shipping and who pays for it (not necessarily the same).  Guessing that the most likely terms will be CIF (Carriage, Insurance and Freight)  UK port - maybe (but improbably) Margate - The Chinese producers (note plural - so each of the 5, 6 or 7 that we are led to believe exist will have its own operation controlling this and each is likely to do it differently) manage the freight, booking of containers, shipment to port and carriage to the named port - usually using a third party.  The freight forwarder (if CIF then chosen by the shipper - so if each company only has one freight forwarder we could have between 5 and 7 freight forwarders - and I guess some producers will have more than one freight forwarder - especially if the final production and packing units are geographically separate - so one say for Shanghai and a completely different one for the industrial zone near Hong Kong and maybe a third for Hong Kong itself).

 

The freight forwarder then makes the shipping bookings with the shipping lines ( so for European destinations probably a choice of 4 major European Groups, at least 2 favoured Chinese lines plus perhaps some American and certainly Arabic and Indian lines).  They also organise the delivery of empty containers to the factory and their pick up for delivery to the Chinese port.  Shipping is organised but depending on whether we are paying premium freight or normal shipping we may somehow miss out boat, even though everything was at the docks in good time.  Upon loading the freight forwarder will provide details ( officially called Bill of Lading) of what is being shipped in which container with which shipping line and to which port.  (And remember my comment above about how the freight forwarder will translate the shippers manifest into English - "It's English Jim, but not as we know it".)

 

The ship sets sail - and now the black hole of knowledge.  There are container tracking systems, but in my experience at least, they are lacking in detail and accuracy.  They rely on individuals recording each action for each container - and the big ships can now carry 13000 20 foot containers each.  I have personal experience of containers arriving at European port which according to the tracking system are still in the shipping port!  Some systems for some lines are better than others, but there is intense competition between lines and for example Maersk may not get information for CGM-CMA (even though they have it) and vice versa. 

 

The bill of lading will indicate the cargo - which may be no more accurate than "models", container numbers, and arrival port and ETA - which may not be in Europe even, and probably will not be in the UK.  Most direct deliveries from Asia go to major Continental European ports and only a relatively few divert to UK ports.  So the ship berths in  say Tangier, Malta, Valencia, Hamburg, Antwerp or even Dubai and the containers are off loaded.  If this is recorded in the tracking system we can consider this as a bonus - more often than not it will not be.  The containers will be at different points in the "stack" - some will be front row top (and easy to get) and some will be bottom row in the middle ( and require 40 movements to get to the container you want.

 

The containers then wait for a suitable shuttle vessel to the UK.  The 12 containers shipped on the original manifest from China may end up on half a dozen different shuttle boats arriving at different UK ports over a period of several weeks - Felixstowe, Thamesport, Southampton, maybe even Teesport or Hull.  They clear customs - remember just one code and one import tariff (possibly zero) so still no idea what has arrived.  Hornby will probably be using a clearing agent for this, but like the freight forwarder, be assured they also know SFA about model railways.  The clearing agent may well organise freight to Margate and the container arrives and is opened and there is a Chinese version of Cilla Black saying "Surplise, surplise!!"

 

So to sum up and to give a rough idea:

6 producers

in say 8 different geographical locations

using say 15 freight forwarders

who patronise 10 shipping lines

sailing to 6 "near locations"

and then transhipping to 5 UK ports for collection and delivery to Margate.

 

I think that is in excess of 200 000 combinations - or put another way theoretically no 2 deliveries will be the same.  It is no wonder that Hornby do not know what is going to arrive in the detail we would like to think is possible.

 

Oh and I used to spend millions on imports and it never got any better than this - and my boss could never understand why either.

And this all assumes the container is loaded at the factory? What if the factory packs boxes, then ships them - DHL style - to a warehouse, for onward sorting and transhipment? They could endup in a mixed container bound eventually for UK, which then is moved to another warehouse, emptied, sorte - oh I give up!

 

Patience my boy, patience, it is only a toy train!

 

Stewart

[Ravenser]

Which poses the question 'what about the paperwork for both stock control/audit and the customs declaration?'.  Whoever packs the box - be it factory or groupage - they must surely list the contents even if it is only 'Hornby package xyz' (but the factory will presumably have a list of what they put into package xyz)?  It all seems terribly hit and miss - let alone open to all sorts of other problems - if there isn't a clear list of what has been shipped in order for it to be checked against what arrives, and is paid for; all of that is a most basic part of invoicing and stock control in my view.

 

And it is simple to send a list from anywhere in the modern world to anywhere else in the modern world Package xyz contains so & so and was loaded to container number 123 consigned to so & so on x date - then tracking is simple (allegedly). If I was spending thousands on buying whatever I would want documentation to cover what has been sent so that I can make sure it arrives - are Hornby as fussy as I might be?

 

 

"504 cartons toys/models  HS code xxxxxxxx each 36cm x 10 cm x 6cm"

 

Andy Haytor

Guessing that the most likely terms will be CIF (Carriage, Insurance and Freight) UK port - maybe (but improbably) Margate - The Chinese producers (note plural - so each of the 5, 6 or 7 that we are led to believe exist will have its own operation controlling this and each is likely to do it differently) manage the freight, booking of containers, shipment to port and carriage to the named port - usually using a third party.

 

 

 

An awful lot of Westbound Far East cargo is controlled this end - but it could be FOB, ex works , delivered into a CFS warehouse for a groupage box , or one or two further permutations  of Incoterms I'd have to look up . (And quite a bit of the trade hasn't caught up with Incoterms2010 and is still merrily referring to terms renamed/changed at the revision)

 

If Hornby control the shipment , or most of it, they'd have a freight forwarder at this end - but then you'd be talking about communications from the UK forwarder's Chinese partner. Or from the individual factory to Hornby. And some of those factories have been newly taken on.

 

"So sorry but we can not load Rxxxx  in the container so  will ship groupage. Forwarder say container late to terminal so line shut it out. " etc etc

 

Stewartingram

And this all assumes the container is loaded at the factory? What if the factory packs boxes, then ships them - DHL style - to a warehouse, for onward sorting and transhipment? They could endup in a mixed container bound eventually for UK, which then is moved to another warehouse, emptied, sorte - oh I give up!

 

 

 

 

The term is groupage (or consol[idated] cargo) .  LCL (Less than Container Load), as opposed to FCL (Full Container Load)  And it gets better - if the Chinese forwarder can't make up a complete mixed box of his own , or has overspill he can't get away in his own boxes , they may book it with another forwarder in their groupage box as a "co-loader"....

 

Someone did once describe FE groupage in my hearing as "a black art"

 

We now have potential for the truck not to make it from the factory into the warehouse  in time to load in this week's box, on top of all the other ills that flesh is heir to...

 

 

Not to mention the curious Westbound habit of putting boxes on a ship at one port and taking them off in another port like Singapore and leaving them behind for a subsequent vessel ("optional stowage"). I always thought this was total crackers , in operational /economic terms , but then I'm an EB /export animal so what would I know......?

 

With all the control /co-ordination /communication with umpteen parties going on here , the potential for something somewhere to be shipped not quite as originally indicated by the factory in China is high. Added to which Hornby have an extremely complex and diverse range of products - they must be up there with the big department stores , but on a fraction of the volume - and we are an exceptionally demanding market.

 

If Next get the blue dresses a week before the red ones, it's probably not going to cause a sit-down protest in the Womenswear Dept, and if QVC get something delayed into the warehouse by a fortnight they may be very annoyed but if push comes to shove they can probably work round it with modest inconvenience, and nobody in the outside world will ever realise. We're a bit different - there's a public bunfight about service levels and competence because a SR coach is 8 weeks early.