Where are the Hornby models?

[The Stationmaster]

Average model shop ? Where are they,then ? I suspect the average child would have to be dragged into one by the proverbial wild horse,these days......that is...if you can find one. The one I know is not exactly child-friendly,anyway

 

Kids these days have,I'm afraid,different distractions to divert them.Going digital has a different meaning for them.

As a frequenter of a 'proper model shop' it is worth mentioning that I see children in there fairly frequently although certain times of year do peak (end of the summer school holidays being one such - odd though it might sound).  And Miss P summed them up fairly accurately in terms of model railway buying habits I've observed but they aren't all into model railways from what I have seen with Airfix kits still being quite popular.

 

Coming back to the 'small numbers' point I will make one observation based on fact - the Hornby 2 BIL would appear to have been popular and generally well received but following on initial apparent shortages (possibly a consequence of them not being sent to retailers at the expected times) they are still readily available from various retailers without looking too hard.  So did Hornby make enough or not, and how many is 'enough' and will the A suffix version sell in sufficient numbers to justify its production run?  

 

Just how many is 'enough'?  (it would be interesting to compare that number with the number they actually produced - which I happen to know, albeit in confidence)

[Dunsignalling]

I will  pick up on that 'idea' although like others I find some of the other comments rather inconsistent.  

 

But back to the 'idea'  - having said prices are an issue you now want them to concentrate, in part, on rolling stock.  Well apart from a 40% mark up on a £40 coach being considerably less than 40% on £120 loco are you seriously suggesting they should divert a goodly part of their energy into coming to market with lots of coaches at around the £35-50 mark.  While we know that Hornby do some excellent coaches could they seriously survive on the return that coaches provide, let alone the even smaller return on wagons selling at around £9-15 each - or are you suggest they go for more specialised wagons retailing at much higher prices? 

 

[skip to]

 

My grouse in this area is that they do not - at times - produce enough to meet their pre-orders and that I think is a genuine shortcoming as it is unfair on both retailers and customers - but that's a rather different thing from saying 'they only produce in small numbers'.

 

BTW you seem to have missed the fact that the new management have put someone in place specifically to tackle their supply chain problems and that they have also changed and diversified their manufacturing contracts for the same reason - and they have explained that, and some of the consequences, quite openly.  But clearly their ongoing wider communication is not as good as it should be and they are, in effect, not reporting on the degree of success, or otherwise, these measures are achieving - but we do then get involved in matters of commercial confidence where they might not be able to say as much as they would like.

There is a valid point here. If one buys a locomotive, there is a need for something to follow it around!

 

Hornby correctly judged that buyers of their best locos would purchase rolling stock of equal quality if it were on offer.

 

The comparison is not 40% on a £120 loco vs 40% of around £40 but vs 40% of around £40 multiplied by several.

 

I admit I am probably not typical but Hornby have only sold me two new locos since the superb 'Sir Meliagrance' (a 'Blandford Forum' to make my fleet of West Countries even more excessive and a 2P that I wouldn't have entertained for one minute at the list price of £106 but purchased because it was discounted to a sub-Hatton's level at a show). They have not made anything else that caters for my interests.

 

However, in the same three years I have purchased: one Maunsell S&D 3-set, one Pull-push set, a Crimson/cream Maunsell BCK + BSK, two Maunsell open seconds, six Hawksworths, two Gresley BGs, two Van Bs (or should that be Vans B?) and two 12-wheel Pullmans to supplement my existing 8-wheelers. Total sales: 21 models. Total potential sales if they hadn't been producing coaches of this quality: Nil.   

 

However, I agree entirely with your later points.

 

John

[Ravenser]

 There's more to life that smarting about a Hornby product, get yourself a Ratio SR bogie B luggage van kit they are a quality kit easy to make, people will have to bide their time if they are waiting for new products from Hornby thats if they can get anything into the stores I have my doubts.

 

 

As a practical comment - I'm pretty relaxed about RTR supplies ('cos I'm not buying much) and I have built the Ratio Van B. But it was a pretty protracted process , and pretty well everyone I mentioned the kit to immediately said things like "It's not a quick build, that one" or "It'll take you some time". This is down to the unnecessary complication Ratio introduced - I still can't see why they chose to have seperate parts for the doors and then require you to fit individual etched door hinges one by one... A single moulded side would have done fine

 

Very few people actually manage to fit every component on the etch to the model , and every other Ratio kit is a good deal simpler and quicker to build

 

In normal circumstances I'd be pretty pleased with the results, and it sees plenty of service, but I have to admit that the model and finish is not quite as good as Hornby's RTR version (Full details of the saga are in my workbench blog if anyone wants all the gory detail...)

[robmcg]

In a variation on themes I have illustrated elsewhere in Hornby (and in a couple of Settle and Carlisle threads), showing my weakness for BR mainline steam of the 50s and 60s., here as an example of an all-Hornby very high standard of modelling which several years ago we could obtain easily from retailers. Well, the engine at least, or one like it.

 

Sadly these particular models, A3 60067 'Ladas' and red-cream Staniers, are not generally available new so far as I know, but perhaps similar could be bought second-hand. As ever I take liberties with photo editing.  A cross-country Leeds-Carlisle turn for a Doncaster engine, more stretching of the truth!

 

 

 

 

 

[brushman47544]

Some very interesting points and counter arguments too.

 

• Hornby need to focus on who they want to sell to; demanding adult modellers or do they want to make toys for children.  I think that they cannot continue trying to do both and being all things to all men.  This issue goes to the heart of the matter and has never been thoroughly addressed.

 

The question of who Hornby are trying to sell to is I agree a tad confused, but I don't see why Hornby cannot sell to the "demanding adult modeller" and as "toys for children". It already has the makings of this with what we call main range items as opposed to Railroad. In my view, Hornby should review its model range and classify each individual model into one category or the other based on levels of detail and costs to produce. The items should then be sold separately and exclusively under one "brand" or the other and be priced accordingly. This should include Train Sets and Train Packs too. Why no cheaper Railroad branded Train Sets?

[DonnyRailMan]

I always thought that the Railroad brand was for the junior market being

cheaper/lower spec & lower in price .

 

 

                   D.R.M.

[coachmann]

I always thought that the Railroad brand was for the junior market being

cheaper/lower spec & lower in price .

 

 

                   D.R.M.

It was supposed to be but the laughable Compound put paid to that at a very high price for what it was. On the otherhand Hornby could make something decent out of its D49 but are there enough buyers around to make a decent chassis & motion worthwhile?

[The Stationmaster]

There is a valid point here. If one buys a locomotive, there is a need for something to follow it around!

 

Hornby correctly judged that buyers of their best locos would purchase rolling stock of equal quality if it were on offer.

 

The comparison is not 40% on a £120 loco vs 40% of around £40 but vs 40% of around £40 multiplied by several.

 

I admit I am probably not typical but Hornby have only sold me two new locos since the superb 'Sir Meliagrance' (a 'Blandford Forum' to make my fleet of West Countries even more excessive and a 2P that I wouldn't have entertained for one minute at the list price of £106 but purchased because it was discounted to a sub-Hatton's level at a show). They have not made anything else that caters for my interests.

 

However, in the same three years I have purchased: one Maunsell S&D 3-set, one Pull-push set, a Crimson/cream Maunsell BCK + BSK, two Maunsell open seconds, six Hawksworths, two Gresley BGs, two Van Bs (or should that be Vans B?) and two 12-wheel Pullmans to supplement my existing 8-wheelers. Total sales: 21 models. Total potential sales if they hadn't been producing coaches of this quality: Nil.   

 

However, I agree entirely with your later points.

 

John

It's an interesting area John and one I talked to Simon Kohler about some years ago when the Hawksworths were on the way.  Now I obviously don't know what he based his comments on but when I told him how many Hawksworths I had on order he described that as being 'unusual' and that 'not many people buy coaches like that'- he gave the impression that his information was that most folk didn't buy a decent length train's worth of coaches but only bought  one or two.  

 

That, perhaps, seems to put highly detailed, appropriately priced, coaching stock into the context in which Hornby sees it and might help to explain why they are following the course they have adopted for the new Mk1 which they presumably intend to sell in larger quantities and not have any left hanging around on shelves at Margate.  Again I wonder about their understanding of the market - like you I wouldn't have bought any of the highly detailed Hornby coaches unless they were any good and offered what I perceive as value for my money.  But at the same time they clearly have had a surplus of Hawksworths on their hands and are in the same boat with some Maunsells and a few of the various Pullmans - looks to me as if they applied their 'mass market' ideas to items which logically have a more restricted market but are good enough to sell well and profitably if produced in the right numbers.  Again the marketing trick is to get at 'the right numbers' and that's the difficult bit where either relatively small runs or manufacturing to solely satisfy pre-orders plus a small percentage for stock is the sensible course to take?

[Ian Hargrave]

It is worth noting here that discounting has recently started with Hawksworth coaches....or are these ex-Modelzone stock ? Both Kernown and Rails are pushing them.

[The Stationmaster]

It is worth noting here that discounting has recently started with Hawksworth coaches....or are these ex-Modelzone stock ? Both Kernown and Rails are pushing them.

Judging by the R numbers I suspect they might have come from Modelzone based stock.

[Dunsignalling]

It's an interesting area John and one I talked to Simon Kohler about some years ago when the Hawksworths were on the way. Now I obviously don't know what he based his comments on but when I told him how many Hawksworths I had on order he described that as being 'unusual' and that 'not many people buy coaches like that'- he gave the impression that his information was that most folk didn't buy a decent length train's worth of coaches but only bought one or two.

 

That, perhaps, seems to put highly detailed, appropriately priced, coaching stock into the context in which Hornby sees it and might help to explain why they are following the course they have adopted for the new Mk1 which they presumably intend to sell in larger quantities and not have any left hanging around on shelves at Margate. Again I wonder about their understanding of the market - like you I wouldn't have bought any of the highly detailed Hornby coaches unless they were any good and offered what I perceive as value for my money. But at the same time they clearly have had a surplus of Hawksworths on their hands and are in the same boat with some Maunsells and a few of the various Pullmans - looks to me as if they applied their 'mass market' ideas to items which logically have a more restricted market but are good enough to sell well and profitably if produced in the right numbers. Again the marketing trick is to get at 'the right numbers' and that's the difficult bit where either relatively small runs or manufacturing to solely satisfy pre-orders plus a small percentage for stock is the sensible course to take?

I think the problem with the surplus items currently being discounted is that Hornby didn't sufficiently consider that some models in each range would be more popular than others, as would some liveries. It appears that their judgement of overall demand can also be off-beam.

 

In the Maunsell range, this led to rapid sell-outs of the models that make up 2, 3 and 4 coach sets, whilst the more specialised FK is currently almost being given away in some quarters. They also made insufficient quantities of Brake 3rds initially (though further runs helped redress the balance) and seem to have repeated the mistake with the Gresley non-corridor stock.

 

Equally, it is evident that, Maunsells in BR green have been the most popular by a considerable margin; I don't think it a coincidence that the more recent "S&D" 3-Set and TO/SO have (so far) been produced only in this livery. Early runs of Hawksworth stock seem to have largely satisfied the market and the depth of recent discounting suggests that subsequent production has greatly exceeded remaining demand. Mine are all Maroon, but stocks may be too large for any livery bias to have yet emerged.

 

Most of this can probably be put down to 20-20 hindsight, but it will be in Hornby's interests to research these aspects a little more thoroughly for future ranges.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

Well said Larry.

 

On the model railway front for decades we had to put up with stuff that bore only a passing resemblance to the real thing and when taking into account the well detailed models manufactured in Europe for the continental modellers we were viewed as mugs with that low standard of output.

 

Bachmann started things off with the advent of the Blue Riband standard after which Hornby had to decide whether to take them on or continue with the low quality of model. Fortunately Hornby, thanks to Simon Kohler, decided that was the way to go and introduced their Super Detail range from which we all benefited with both manufacturers raising the standards on a continuing basis. It is incredible to think that from the late 40s when Hornby Dublo first made the A4 and a decade or so later when Triang made the A3 that it took until 2004/5 for LNER modellers to have models of A3s and A4s with the correct types of tenders rather than the preceding "one type fits all" approach!

 

Hopefully Hornby will realise that their Super Detail market is not only a large, profitable one which has proved a hit with the modellers but that there is a continuing demand for it, We do not wish to turn the clock back to Triang Railways, if that happens Bachmann will think Christmas has come early.

Not just LNER Pacifics. Hornby Dublo produced 'Barnstaple' and 'Dorchester' with the BR rebodied tender, though neither loco ever ran with one. Wrenn compounded the sin by attaching the same one to ALL their air-smoothed models despite NONE ever having been so paired. 

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

Hi,

 

I have been following the debate regarding Hornby’s shortcomings with interest.   I don’t want to go over the same old ground again or to enter into the minutiae of the supply chain failures as I missed out on the SR Bogie B Luggage Van in Olive Green Livery and am still quite het up about that.

 

In summary my thoughts are much the same as many others;

 

• The supply chain is a huge mess due to the factory closing and other issues.
• The same old lame excuses have to stop and the issues have to be addressed and solutions put in place.
• Hornby have to start to communicate the issues openly and honestly to gain credibility with the retailers and customers.   
• Hornby are not in tune with their customer base and (With some exceptions) are not producing (or promising to produce) the high quality models that the demanding adult customers would buy in droves.
• Prices are an issue for some customers and Hornby must remain competitive on pricing by monitoring and matching the competition.
• Hornby need to focus on who they want to sell to; demanding adult modellers or do they want to make toys for children.  I think that they cannot continue trying to do both and being all things to all men.  This issue goes to the heart of the matter and has never been thoroughly addressed.
• Hornby are not capitalizing on additional liveries of existing models.  There appears to be a large number of options open in this area where quick profits could be made.
• Hornby only produce models in very small numbers causing unacceptable market shortages, this irritates both the retailers and the potential customers.
• Hornby do not produce re-runs of popular models quickly enough so do not make the maximum profit from the investment.
• Hornby still produce very old models at high prices IE the Class 47 diesel locomotive in Northern Belle livery.    Why o why did they do this?  It was madness in today’s market.
• Hornby don’t seem to recognise that most of their customers are serious and demanding adult modellers who create fantastic layouts and are not Mum and Dad buying a train set for their child.  These days are long gone.  I guess that the niche market of the Thomas The Tank Engine range is the exception here.
• Hornby seem to have little or no idea about how the real railway works or appear to seek to learn from knowledgeable experts who I think would happily  advise them without requiring payment if they thought that they were being listened to.
• The high end products must continue to be manufactured in either China or elsewhere overseas as it cannot a good financial move to manufacture these products in the UK or EU.   I do however support the  return of Humbrol paint and Airfix kits to the UK where specialist manufacturing skills are not an imperative.
• Hornby have put major investment into advances into DCC control systems and I suggest that this is a low priority for most potential customers.

 

Frankly none of the above is rocket science and much of it is achievable but it does require a cultural change from within the company.

 

I am not an business expert but I have tried to put my “Man in the Street” views down in writing, but I very much doubt whether any-one from the company will be taking note and I sadly expect that they will carry on in the same old way until the money runs out.

 

I think that Frank Martin knew very little about the real railway or had much interest in model railways and I hope the new management team addresses these serious issues.     

 

I am in the adult modeller category and I have not bought anything from Hornby for a while as what I want from the Hornby range is simply not available to buy, which is a sad reflection on the present state of the company.  

 

Finally here is an idea – For two seasons stop producing new locomotives and concentrate on rolling stock and accessories, this will be less investment cost leading to quick sales and a return to a satisfactory bank balance.

 

More in sadness rather than in anger;   Stephen Dimmock.

Can we have a symbol for "agree with most of that" please.........

 

They have to be in DCC to look progressive and electronics are probably more profitable than models anyway.

 

Rather than turning their backs on new locomotives entirely (that's really not going to happen, is it?), maybe a concentration on satisfying unfulfilled demand for models from existing tooling for a while would placate all those disappointed by under-production or non-introduction of items they want whilst keeping development cost down.

 

My own suggestion: 34006 'Bude' in 1960-ish condition.

 

John

[alfsboy]

They may well have to have a certain production run to even get a look in at a sub contractors  output schedule .That may well be based on  the US  market  order levels not ours .Getting it right must be a nightmare .I suspect  scale modelers  overate our relevence in the wider scheme of things .I keep seeing requests and demands for super accuracy and then see a Bachmann 4F in fake S and  D livery selling out in weeks .I bought one .Bachmann can afford to  play it long as they have the factories .i suspect we buy the mags ,go on the forums ,and think that is the market when its just the tip of an iceberg   of customers that like trains and isnt over fussy quite how accurate it is and may well be put off by all the bits falling off .

[Venator]

Hi,

 

I have been following the debate regarding Hornby’s shortcomings with interest.   I don’t want to go over the same old ground again or to enter into the minutiae of the supply chain failures as I missed out on the SR Bogie B Luggage Van in Olive Green Livery and am still quite het up about that.

 

In summary my thoughts are much the same as many others;

 

• The supply chain is a huge mess due to the factory closing and other issues.
• The same old lame excuses have to stop and the issues have to be addressed and solutions put in place.
• Hornby have to start to communicate the issues openly and honestly to gain credibility with the retailers and customers.   
• Hornby are not in tune with their customer base and (With some exceptions) are not producing (or promising to produce) the high quality models that the demanding adult customers would buy in droves.
• Prices are an issue for some customers and Hornby must remain competitive on pricing by monitoring and matching the competition.
• Hornby need to focus on who they want to sell to; demanding adult modellers or do they want to make toys for children.  I think that they cannot continue trying to do both and being all things to all men.  This issue goes to the heart of the matter and has never been thoroughly addressed.
• Hornby are not capitalizing on additional liveries of existing models.  There appears to be a large number of options open in this area where quick profits could be made.
• Hornby only produce models in very small numbers causing unacceptable market shortages, this irritates both the retailers and the potential customers.
• Hornby do not produce re-runs of popular models quickly enough so do not make the maximum profit from the investment.
• Hornby still produce very old models at high prices IE the Class 47 diesel locomotive in Northern Belle livery.    Why o why did they do this?  It was madness in today’s market.
• Hornby don’t seem to recognise that most of their customers are serious and demanding adult modellers who create fantastic layouts and are not Mum and Dad buying a train set for their child.  These days are long gone.  I guess that the niche market of the Thomas The Tank Engine range is the exception here.
• Hornby seem to have little or no idea about how the real railway works or appear to seek to learn from knowledgeable experts who I think would happily  advise them without requiring payment if they thought that they were being listened to.
• The high end products must continue to be manufactured in either China or elsewhere overseas as it cannot a good financial move to manufacture these products in the UK or EU.   I do however support the  return of Humbrol paint and Airfix kits to the UK where specialist manufacturing skills are not an imperative.
• Hornby have put major investment into advances into DCC control systems and I suggest that this is a low priority for most potential customers.

 

Frankly none of the above is rocket science and much of it is achievable but it does require a cultural change from within the company.

 

I am not an business expert but I have tried to put my “Man in the Street” views down in writing, but I very much doubt whether any-one from the company will be taking note and I sadly expect that they will carry on in the same old way until the money runs out.

 

I think that Frank Martin knew very little about the real railway or had much interest in model railways and I hope the new management team addresses these serious issues.     

 

I am in the adult modeller category and I have not bought anything from Hornby for a while as what I want from the Hornby range is simply not available to buy, which is a sad reflection on the present state of the company.  

 

Finally here is an idea – For two seasons stop producing new locomotives and concentrate on rolling stock and accessories, this will be less investment cost leading to quick sales and a return to a satisfactory bank balance.

 

More in sadness rather than in anger;   Stephen Dimmock.

 

I think when Hornby start from scratch on a model (i.e not using old Lima tooling) they produce fantastic results. Their Class 60 for example is an outstanding model. I have consistently found myself buying Hornby products over the past few years and I think they're of a high standard. I recently bought R3206 the blue tornado, it worked fantastically well straight out of the box. Similarly the 2-BIL is a really good model and worked straight away:apart from the lack of interior lighting I'd say its just as good as a Bachmann 2EPB (of which I own x2). Perhaps my standards are lower than the "adult modeller category" alluded to above but frankly I've have yet to be dissapointed by any of my purchases from Hornby. Even the worst Hornby models (like the tooling that dates back to the 1980s) would be better than my feeble attempts at kit building!

 

Whatever percieved issues Hornby have I'm sure they will be sorted eventually. Any sort of business the size of Hornby has difficult periods, makes errors and can get behind. Everytime I have spoken to Simon at a show he has been frank about things that have gone wrong. When I spoke to him about their 4VEP he immidiately apologised for the mistake over the solid 1st class compartment. Perhaps a few years of consolidation and smaller ranges will help Hornby to get back on top of things. Manufacturing these high precision model railway products needs a skilled manufacturer and getting the supplier right I'm sure will be extremley difficult. To use 1:1 scale steam locomotive restoration to illustrate: finding a supplier to provide a quality cast cylinder block is extremley difficult because its such a niche techology / manufacturing. I would expect Hornby are having similar issues.

 

As for the Hornby customer service team it's first class. I have sent enquiries about spare parts or various other things and they always reply quickly and are helpful. My local model shop in Ashford speak very highly about Hornby and their retail services.

 

Hornby's profits may have been down recently and many on here are writing them off. People have done the same to all sorts of companies that have returned to success. For the good of railway modelling I hope Hornby continue to produce excellent models and provide their outstanding customer support.

[Ravenser]

The fundamental issue here is that over the last 15 years pretty well all the world's RTR has shifted to being made in the Chinese factories of 2-3 big concerns plus a few bit-players . These concerns, by and large, don't design or market/retail the stuff they make - that's done by a host of companies around the world. The Chinese factories are (by and large) simply manufacturing subcontractors.

 

One of those big manufacturing contractors went bust . They were then taken over by their biggest competitor , who subseqently rationalised by shutting down the factory they bought . Costs and wages in China are rising sharply, and clearly the Chinese firms were on wafer thin margins at best - not uncommon in China - to start with.

 

None of this is under Hornby's control, as they don't own that part of the supply chain , so saying that "they should get their finger out and fix it" is unrealistic. They lost their main supplier, there are very few if any obvious alternatives. It's arguable that the fact they haven't collapsed and that in the face of a severe ecomonic downturn in all their markets on top of this (remember Italy and Spain are harder hit than Britain) they've made a small loss in one year is a great deal better than you'd expect in that scenario

 

Now they are attempting to resolve the situation (not of their making)  by getting other Chinese factories to move into modern model railways. The fact that it's not proving a quick walk in the park does demonstrate that "doing something about it" is fairly difficult.

 

"Design clever" is clearly an attempt to deal with relentless cost pressure in the face of highly price resistant markets . They are clearly trying to avoid the trap of eyewatering prices and collapsing volumes that the Continental manufacturers have fallen into. The problem is simply that they haven't yet established what compromises the market will or won't take. Moulded smokebox darts and moulded handrails seem to be things the market won't take . Moulded grab irons and roof vents it seems it will take.

 

And to a degree we are crying out before we're hurt. Despite the outcry over the 2-BIL people can and have seen the model in the flesh before buying, and despite the perception that there were far too few to go round, they are still available. The outrage over ModelZone having supplies and the cries of Boycott! Profiteer! now look a bit different when ModelZone  has collapsed and 2-BILs are still to be had 

 

And  Bachmann are limited in what they are putting out as well. For example you can hardly get any tank locos from them at present. The Ivatt 2-6-2T has slipped , the Portholes and Dukedog keep slipping. I heard someone on the Bachmann stand mutter at a show early this year that he'd heard Hornby might be getting first call on the production slots and things weren't coming through... 

[dibber25]

It is mistaken to believe that the US market is so much bigger than ours and that US production therefore takes priority. I have seen evidence of very small US runs for some models and the US market is just as starved of new stock as ours is. The US market benefits because much of the high volume stuff is ancient and easy to produce from old, simple tooling, while the other benefit which the US enjoys is that the 'trainset' end of its market is not Hornby but Bachmann, and Bachmann has a greater degree of control over its own manufacturing.

CHRIS LEIGH

[Fenman]

I think an answer like that sums up why Hornby has an inability to put enough stock on the shelves, it clearly appears to to be a lack of market research on their part.

 

I'm not sure why you think that. Implicit in the quotes provided by Stationmaster is an understanding of what is "usual" in the marketplace and how most people choose to buy coaches. How would Hornby know that other than by market research?

 

Or do you think Hornby are just plain wrong and you know better how the market buys coaches? I'd love to see your data.

 

Paul

['CHARD]

I'm not sure why you think that. Implicit in the quotes provided by Stationmaster is an understanding of what is "usual" in the marketplace and how most people choose to buy coaches. How would Hornby know that other than by market research?

 

Or do you think Hornby are just plain wrong and you know better how the market buys coaches? I'd love to see your data.

 

Paul

 

I think 81C (as I read it at least) was agreeing with Mike, it's just that the first few words could be interpreted as mildly confrontational but weren't intended that way.

[Ravenser]

I think an answer like that sums up why Hornby has an inability to put enough stock on the shelves, it clearly appears to to be a lack of market research on their part.

 

The reason why Hornby can't put enough stock on the shelves is that the Chinese factories - globally , for all model railway companies - aren't able to satisfy the demand , because one of the big ones has closed down. And nobody is rushing to provide that extra capacity because Sandakan weren't making any money to start with, and because costs are rising significantly year by year. When supply is inadequete and nobody steps in to fill the gap, that generally signals that the market price is too low for suppliers to make a normal living

 

If there were piles of Hornby stock unsold at the retailers, that might indicate Hornby's market research was at fault , and that they weren't producing the products the market wanted. I don't see how Hornby selling all the products they can get made is a signal that they have badly misread the market.

 

(And a question that's been hanging in the back of my mind for some time - if there weren't supply problems in China , and if RTR was pouring onto the shelves in the "normal" boom-time way , could the market actually absorb it? Is the supply crisis actually a blessing in disguise, masking a drop in demand and avoiding a glut of unsold stock overhanging a weak market? The suggestion that Hornby is putting the retail trade into difficulties because of a lack of stock to sell ignores the very real possibility that the market for that amount of stock simply isnt there , and that the only result of normal production would be shops full of unsold stock and a price collapse as retailers cut each other's throats in a desperate attempt to shift it. That might do considerably more damage to the trade than what we see now. The days of £10 Airfix 31s and Royal Scots overhanging the British market in the early 80s probably did the trade and the manufacturers no favours)  

 

I'm a little doubtful about some of the demands that "Hornby should communicate better" because I'm not convinced that folk are necessarily listening to what is said. A year or more ago , Simon Kohler actually warned publicly that in future Hornby would be producing in shorter runs , and there would not be a warehouse full of unsold stock to be dumped through the boxsellers at a discount 12 months after release. While teething problems with the new factories may well be making the runs even shorter than intended, we were warned this was the new policy and Hornby are only doing what they announced they would. And by and large folk seem to have simply woven the statement into their personal "Why Hornby don't get it and are doing it all wrong" theories as an "excuse" obfuscation/smoke signal , rather than considering what this would actually mean for us in practice. Similarly , the statement that Hornby were operating concessions has been in annual reports and statements for years - I don't quite understand the howls of outrage and the view that Hornby are only allowed to sell their products via certain retail channels and mustn't supply others, and that ModelZone must only get leftover scraps of production. It's now horribly obvious that nobody was exactly making a fortune at our expense from the ModelZone arrangement...  

 

And the head of Hornby Italia was reported as saying that supply had been particularly difficult last year , but that this year should be better. When Continental models sell for 60-100% more than the British equivalent, you can hardly be surprised if Hornby were to decide that this year it's the Continental ranges which need to be protected when production slots have to be rationed

 

With the exception of some Hawksworths and a few of the more niche Maunsells and Pullmans Hornby do seem to be selling whatever they make. The 2-BILs have been a commercial success, and the GW tanks seem still to be coming in dribs and drabs . Shifting the stuff isn't their problem at present, so "not reading the market" isn't the main issue for them     

[phil gollin]

.

 

...........    In the Maunsell range, this led to rapid sell-outs of the models that make up 2, 3 and 4 coach sets, whilst the more specialised FK is currently almost being given away in some quarters. They also made insufficient quantities of Brake 3rds initially (though further runs helped redress the balance) ......................

 

Equally, it is evident that, Maunsells in BR green have been the most popular by a considerable margin; I don't think it a coincidence that the more recent "S&D" 3-Set and TO/SO have (so far) been produced only in this livery. ...............

 

 

But where are the BR Green "high window" Maunsells ?   

 

Another trick missed by Hornby.

 

.

[andyman7]

I always thought that the Railroad brand was for the junior market being

cheaper/lower spec & lower in price .

 

 

 

It was supposed to be but the laughable Compound put paid to that at a very high price for what it was. On the otherhand Hornby could make something decent out of its D49 but are there enough buyers around to make a decent chassis & motion worthwhile?

Railroad is not neccessarily for the younger modeller - it is for the more price sensitive modeller or one who would rather forgo fiddly detail bits that might fall off. The issue is that the use of the Railroad brand is somewhat hit and miss. Subjects like the 9F are I think superb advocates for the idea - a model which is not as finescale as the Bachmann offering but is robust, well finished and looks the part at near half the cost of the Bachmann one.

 

I'm less sure about offerings such as the Northern Belle 47 or ex-Lima warship which seem to be very close in price to the competition for much more basic models. There is also an issue with items such as the class 86 or the class 90 appearing in the main range when they are without doubt tooled to 'Railroad' standards. This is where I think Hornby could make much more of brand differentiation. Personally I think they could easily justify three clearly demarcated tiers - Railroad for the 'value' range, a regular range featuring mainstream items (including the enhanced versions of Design Clever models such as Tornado and the P2), and an elite premium range where the full fat superdetailed models could reside. I'm not suggesting hundreds of lines either - in these straitened times I could envisage the premium range maybe being 3 or 4 models a year that are issued or re-liveried.

[Dunsignalling]

But where are the BR Green "high window" Maunsells ?   

 

Another trick missed by Hornby.

 

.

The High-window BR green versions were the first to be produced. They sold out fast enough to suggest that more would be well-received by now but the evident surplus of Hawksworths and Crimson/cream High-window Maunsells make it doubtful that Hornby will risk it.  

 

The Low-window types have been poorly covered in their final colours. The tooling exists and a CK is included in the 3-set mentioned along with a pair of BSKs (the 4-compartment sort, which I think only ran that way). There have also been Low-window SKs and BCKs but they have only been available within the '1957 Suburban' train and coach packs. None have been offered individually and no 6-compartment BSK has been produced despite its availability in SR livery.

 

There have been no Low-window Maunsells at all released in BR Crimson/cream livery.

 

John    

[GoingUnderground]

Oh dear, let's bash Hornby is back in fashion.

 

The "ordinary man in the street" is entitled to his view, but that doens't mean he's right, or that he understands the complexities of modern manufacturing and the worldwide supply chain, or the balancling act that every successful manufacturer has to follow between cost and realism. On one hand we all cry out for lower prices, and on the other complain about long lead times and the length of the supply chain from the lower cost manufacturers. We want more realism, but forget that will increase the cost of the mode, and possibly make it more delicate.

 

Hornby would dearly love to have their production programme fully up to date because they can't make a profit out of things that are not available for sale, something that all the "moaning minnies" always very conveniently forget. If they can't make a profit they will fail and the hobby will be the poorer if it goes down.

 

To paraphrase a former work colleague of mine, no one will die if their required loco is a year late, or is cancelled altogether. Get a sense of proportion.

[Coach bogie]

 Subjects like the 9F are I think superb advocates for the idea - a model which is not as finescale as the Bachmann offering but is robust, well finished and looks the part at near half the cost of the Bachmann one.

 

 

I witnessed my BR era friends buying the Railroad 9F's in bulk, discarding the body and replacing with their super detailed and Crownline Crosti conversions from their thirty year old tender drive versions.They were so economincally priced, it was a perfect solution to resurrect engines,mothballed due to the aweful tender drive, and the alternative Comet/Romford Wheels/Mashima motor was way to expensive and time consuming.

 

Mike Wiltshire