Hornby 2015 Announcements now made

[DropTheTap]

Wouldn't be too bad if they got it right, 08 822 is SO WRONG!

 

 How about a blue one that's easy to renumber without having to re-apply the top two black "wasp" stripes (that a small minority of examples had painted over) to the front side... ;-)

[Multiple identity account]

Personally, my believe overall is that the annoucement from Hornby is quite poor in content. My reasoning behind this can be summed up as follows...

 

The King, as is already known, has been annouced elsewhere and comes with a hefty price tag.

 

The S15 bears obvious similarities to the Arthur's, and do they really sell that well?

 

The Radial again has not only been annouced elsewhere, but has already been done (by OO works), however I can see the appeal and this model selling well.

 

Similarly, I believe the J50 is a needed model in the market.

 

However, I don't think anyone can argue that the biggest sellers from Hornby this year have been models for which people have been most critical about - namely the design-clever 71000 and P2. I purchased a model of 71000 as part of a train pack for just under £80 from a well known retailer on this site earlier this year, and got a model of the full-fat P2 for circa £100. It is therefore strange to find no new annoucements coming from the RR (or design-clever) stable of similar appeal. There are plenty of obscure locomotives out there that Hornby could have attacked, and its surely known to Hornby by now that obscure sells. Not only are both of these locos obscure, but you only need to look at the 31-460 from Bachmann for evidence. On this basis, are people really going to pay £120 and £80 respectively for these two tank engines? The Adams certainly has appeal, but i've bought a Mikado this year for under £100, so i'll think i'll pass - question is, will others?

 

The coaches are arguably the biggest let down in the annoucement. Just how many Airfix non-corridor LMS coaches to people see lying around at swapmeets? These coaches are of reasonable quality for their age - again, are people really going to pay £40 for them? Also, do we really need more Pullmans? Again, more coaches that can be seen languishing in shop windows and on swapmeet tables for circa £20 that can't be shifted - I can't see these selling well at £50 a time (well only to a certain Mr Wright maybe?).

 

Wagons? What wagons? Admittedly, the LMS horsebox looks nice and i'll be looking at one, but otherwise its fairly quiet on the wagon front so not much to say really.

 

Not much to talk about on the diesel/modern image front, and its not my area so I wont say a great deal.

 

Hornby again seem to be missing two vital markets in my opinion. Earlier in the year, they advertised for a researcher - was this position ever filled? First off, ask yourself how much open coaching stock has/is being used around the country, and then ask yourself how many open coaches have Hornby ever modelled? I think i'm right in saying you can count them on one hand. The second market (a huge market) which Hornby started to make inroads into last year and then stopped is the industrial market. Last week, I saw a 0-4-0 Peckett white metal kit sell for £120 on eBay. It is my belief that Hornby could easily look towards modelling an aesthetically pleasing, robust as well as detailed 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 shunter that would sell really well. Many locos travelled far and wide around the country, so they aren't constrained as much by region or timeframe compared to the models announced. Furthermore, the lower price tag would encourage more sales, as well as inviting people to look at rolling stock within the Hornby range to accomapny such a loco.

 

 

- That would be a matter of personal opinion

 

- When two or more companies work on a same model and if both are well along in the design process then it will be a waste of money for one to back out. IMO DJM's should have backed out as Hornby are well further down the design process. Further more the DJM IMO has a host of features that I wouldn't need like an opening smokebox and 21-pin DCC socket.

 

- To an SR fan they don't.

 

- I blame wishlist polls for that. And it's pretty much common knowledge that both OR and Hornby are both well past the mark to scrap any tooling. It can be called unfortunate but it is un-avoidable.

 

- Was pretty much needed wasn't it

 

- Good point... as modellers all we can do is grumble. And from what I've seen I've been more ashamed. Rather than being there to support Hornby through their turbulent times (like Atlas' fans) we modelers will always look at even the slightest thing to bash. Quite frankly I find it cheap. I recently stumbled upon a thread regarding a batch of Bachmann locos with the chimneys put on backwards. No one was furious, I shudder to think what would have happened if Hornby did that. I personally loved Design-Clever....

 

- Wasn't those Airfix non-corridor coaches different? Well that is what I heard..Must check up on that.

 

- Wagons do seem to have suffered from a lack of variety but still alot of people will be pleased to add things like the CCTs etc to their rakes. So again, it seems like it's down to personal opinion. I wanted more modern stock myself.

 

- In response to your last point. Hornby had a very adventurous plan for 2014 and 2015. Ofcourse at some point in time no one knew what the others wanted to do. I' sure they would have not done the King, Radial and Class 71 if they knew it was be planned elsewhere. Seeing that the Sentinel has come in 2 variants I'm sure behind those doors in MARGATE something is being done for the future products.

 

Cheers!

AJA

 

PS: You have raised many a good point but because I had a reason for most of the things I disagreed. But I'm sure if you do explain things to Simon he will pass it onto Hornby. He may very well see it the way you do.

 

 

[RecordEdit]

I like how the J50 is described as having Cab and Tender detail. I thought they were tank Locos?

 

No, no, no, you misunderstand, Hilux.  They mean the detail will be gentle .... kind .... showing affection even!

 

 

[rovex]

Indeed.

 

Although I would have been far more interested if Hornby had announced the 1966 Mk2 (Manchester Pullman) versions instead.

Oh god. Don't go giving them any ideas. That will be the GWR suburbans delayed for another year

[class37418stag]

Hello everyone

 

NO news modern class 31 groan

 

I was look forward for Hornby class 31 new livery is 31423 mainline(intercity) livery and class 31160 ralfreight distribution livery

[Coryton]

Preserved railways who stage Thomas weekends also need a licence from HIT, with the only exception being the Talyllyn, who were given a perpetual licence by the Rev Awdry (a TRPS member from the earliest days) who created the whole Thomas genre.

 

 

 

Are you sure about the Talyllyn being the only exemption?

 

My memory from a "Thomas Day" some years ago on the Nene Valley was that they had some kind of grandfather rights because the Rev. Awdrey gave them permission to run an engine as Thomas long before Thomas Days were thought of.

 

The web page at http://www.sodor-island.net/daysoutwiththomas.html supports my recollections.

[The Stationmaster]

And GWR coaching stock of literally any pre-1948 (ergo, anything but Hawksworth!) diagram to hang behind Hornby's King and Castle! What are Hornby going to do in their promotional pictures of the new King in 12 months time? Hang 40 year old, over-length Railroad Colletts behind them?! A critical gap in the range really: astonishing - but we've got yet more Pullmans!

 

CoY

You haven't heard of 'The Torbay Pullman'?  Probably the wrong sort of Pullman cars but in most of the pics of it I've seen it appeared to be a 'King' turn so if they know enough (and not too much) they do have one option.

[coachmann]

Well let's agree to disagree on this one Chris

 

The non enthusiast is surely going to go down the Railroad route and I think you'll find it's these models that are in sets. They derive from Lucille in 1974 and the brake introduced in 1980. Non enthusiasts are not going to fork out £45-£50 on a Pullman when there's a £20 version available. These will only be bought by the real enthusiast , who already has rakes of the previous three versions. Simon Kohler may think Pullmans sell , and the Railroad ones may sell to the train set market,but there are lots of discounted high quality ones suggesting the markets had enough of these versions. Real enthusiasts also buy GWR Toplights and Coronations. Seems a shame limited capacity is being used on yet more Pullmans

So a long serving editor of the model railway press doesn't know what he is talking about, followed by "Simon Kohler may think the Pullmans sell but....."

 

...Oh...er....right. 

[great northern]

Well let's agree to disagree on this one Chris

 

The non enthusiast is surely going to go down the Railroad route and I think you'll find it's these models that are in sets. They derive from Lucille in 1974 and the brake introduced in 1980. Non enthusiasts are not going to fork out £45-£50 on a Pullman when there's a £20 version available. These will only be bought by the real enthusiast , who already has rakes of the previous three versions. Simon Kohler may think Pullmans sell , and the Railroad ones may sell to the train set market,but there are lots of discounted high quality ones suggesting the markets had enough of these versions. Real enthusiasts also buy GWR Toplights and Coronations. Seems a shame limited capacity is being used on yet more Pullmans

So, "real enthusiasts" already have rakes of the previous three versions, do they? Well, if they are real enthusiasts, they will have known for years that there were five types of steel panelled cars, not two, and that a train composed solely of first parlours and brakes bore no relation to the real thing. Having produced high quality models of the A3 and A4, surely it makes sense for Hornby to provide the correct pullman cars to run behind them? Apart from the lack of three out of five types, the Railroad cars are now very old tooling, with no flush glazing, wrong bogies, and incorrect ride height. That may not matter to "non enthusiasts", as you say, but to those who do know and care, it is not acceptable. And would you not be prepared to concede that Chris Leigh, with half a century of experience and knowledge of the industry, together with access to information from the manufacturers that you and I will never have, might possibly be more qualified than you are to comment on these matters?  And surely Simon Kohler knows whether or not pullmans sell - after all he has had access to the sales figures for many years.

[Horsetan]

So, "real enthusiasts" already have rakes of the previous three versions, do they? Well, if they are real enthusiasts, they will have known for years that there were five types of steel panelled cars, not two, and that a train composed solely of first parlours and brakes bore no relation to the real thing. .....

Real enthusiasts will probably have commissioned their own rakes of Pullmans from builders such as Rocar, Golden Age, etc....

[The Stationmaster]

 

- When two or more companies work on a same model and if both are well along in the design process then it will be a waste of money for one to back out. IMO DJM's should have backed out as Hornby are well further down the design process. Further more the DJM IMO has a host of features that I wouldn't need like an opening smokebox and 21-pin DCC socket.

 

(snipped)

Cheers!

AJA

 

 

 

Don't forget too that there's more to the Hornby duplication than meets the eye.  Firstly it was fairly common knowledge a year ago that they were likely to be working on a revised 'King' if you had happened to speak to certain peopel at Steam at Swindon (not that there was an automatic tie-up as far as I know but it was made clear that Steam's next 'exclusive' would be a 'King' and it would be a re-tooled one.  At least two of us mentioned it, completely independently of each other,  on here over a year ago.  OK not definitely known to be Hornby but easy enough to add 2 +2 and come-up with a number approximating to 4.

 

So in the cold light of day of the development process Hornby's 'King' is not duplicating anyone's but Hatton's is the later arrival (it is a a Hattons' model - DJM are merely commissioned to make it for Hattons).  But it is probably more than reasonable to say that being in Liverpool they were hardly privvy to the Swindon grapevine - they made a logical business decision and I can't see them retracting from it when there's no doubt a broad enough market for both models to be sold profitably.

 

The radial is perhaps a bit different but - so it appears, not much - Hornby have obviously been working on it for some time to be sufficiently advanced as to produce a 3-D print of one version of it at Warley, again they are not the duplicator.  All that has happened with the radial and the 'King' is that they made a marketing/business decision to reveal their plans and progress when others announced models which would duplicate what they were doing, let's just get the order right about who is duplicating whom.

 

However as far as the Class 71 is concerned it is far from clear who was first and Hornby must have been aware of what was going on regarding the funding of the DJM model.  What we are suffering from with many these things is folk 'wishlist skimming' because while some companies work on long term plans others jump in where they perceive a gap which they think they could fill because the item is at or near the head of a wishlist.  But whatever way you look at it what is the alternative?  Companies which announce some of their plans well in advance are crticised because the model hasn't appeared within months or even weeks while others who jump in can, I suppose, hardly be blamed for not considering the apparent strategy of those already creating a  particular niche in the market.

 

The $64,000 question is whether or not the modeller loses out as a result and that is a very difficult one to answer.  But if development is rushed in order to get on the shelves first we probably would.  Do we lose other potential models as a result? The logical answer to that must be that we don't - for the simple reason that any company working to a strategy will have built its plans, done its research, and be developing models according to what it has decided plus a bit of possible 'bush-telegraph' input on what others are doing.  We might thus lose on quality and detail because B finishes up making something instead of A, we might see a company take a hit because of duplication (and that might have long term implications, or it might not) but that is going to be about as bad as it gets - not avoiding the fact that it could well turn out to be pretty bad for the company concerned and thus, ultimately, us.

 

Hrnby will lose sales of the 'King' to Hattons, inevitable - but I bet theirs will out-sell the Hattons version many times over.  And in the meanwhile Hattons are likely to do pretty well out of theirs too.  Things might be different with the radial but I wouldn't mind betting the first batches will be pretty near to, if not at, 'sold out to the trade' at Hornby, especially if they can get their direct sales organisation sorted into some sort of order.

[great northern]

Real enthusiasts will probably have commissioned their own rakes of Pullmans from builders such as Rocar, Golden Age, etc....

Shouldn't that be really rich enthusiasts? Eleven cars for the Yorkshire Pullman, ten for the Queen of Scots, eight for the Tees Tyne......

[coachmann]

The coaches are arguably the biggest let down in the announcement. Just how many Airfix non-corridor LMS coaches to people see lying around at swapmeets? These coaches are of reasonable quality for their age - again, are people really going to pay £40 for them? 

I'm afraid this betrays a lack of knowledge about coaches. The old Airfix/Dapol LMS coaches were supposed to be representative of the Period II D1736 and D1737 Lavatory coaches built in 1930 (only adjacent compartments had access to the toilets). The models lacked any representation of a raised wooden window bolection and betray their 1980's origins with deeply recessed windows. They were designed for Inter-District working where a lavatory would be useful, but none were built under Stanier as Period III designs as he apparently considered old pre-grouping corridor coaches should be cascaded to such services thereby providing all passenger with toilet access.

 

The newly announced Hornby non-corridor coaches are a different kettle of fish. They will represent Period III Stanier designs built from 1933 onwards with flush windows. The models are shown with welded bogies which dates them from around 1938 onwards.  The brake third is representative of D1907 built from 1933 to 1936 with only one pair of double luggage doors........The brake thirds should have riveted bogies (Hornby please note). It is fortuitous in that these coaches can be fitted with 3-window driving ends to convert them to a push & pull driving trailers. Coaches from D1964 onwards had two pairs of double luggage doors, something the push pull brake thirds never had. The spacing of the double doors also altered later on but I wont complicate matters further!

 

There were other variations. Early 1933-4 coaches had torpedo vents. Hornby is doing the more numerous shell vent variant. However, from 1937-8 the rows of roof vents were closer together. Postwar coaches often had ridge dome vents. I cannot help thinking that Hornby would be better fitting all the coaches with revetted bogies as they would then be suitable for a longer period from 1934 to scrapping in the 1960s.

 

                            Hornby LMS Period III model with one pair of double luggage doors making it for push-pull conversion.

[Dunsignalling]

 

 The S15 bears obvious similarities to the Arthur's, and do they really sell that well?

 

The "obvious similarities" between the S15 and King Arthur are no greater than those between the LNER B1 and O1. 

 

On that basis the latter should never have been made and there will be no point making a Bugatti-nosed P2 because it's too much like an A4! 

 

John

[ThaneofFife]

OK, so lets assume then that the Mk1 Graffiti coach existed/exists......if the artwork is as has been suggested earlier very complicated to produce then it still beggars the question why ?

You can see customers ordering say 6,7, 8 x Mk2e carriages or a full rake of GWR Suburbans (or buying them as signles with the aim of being able to build a rake up) for example and thus you get great returns on your investment but no one modeller is going to get their pre-order in for a rake of these oddballs.  If they have been convinced enough to buy the model instead of buying a regular maroon Mk1 and adding graphics very easily and cheaply themselves, theyre hardly going to require a whole rake of the things so I just dont get this model.  Only Hornby know the answer as to why they felt they would sell enough of these to produce a good profit.  I just dont see it from my humble POV.......

 

Heyho.......I can see somebody looking at Manchester Pullman Mk2s in the coming years which come in the two liveries and I think 3 brandings if you count the later years Inter-City Charter......Right up Bachmanns or Rapidos street Id think.  Detailed interiors and table lamps etc.

[ThaneofFife]

Can I add something else.   I no longer whinge about prices and/or price increases.  Its something that is happening but ive just accepted it now that if I want to see manufactuers making brand new models I actually want to buy then I just buy them and accept thats the price I pay for detail and quality.

 

So whilst I think the comments about models specifics are always valid I think those rumblings now over prices ought to be laid to rest.  It is what it is........If prices stayed the same but we never saw retools or model updates or brand new models to the latest specs or models previously not produced we'd all be up in arms without even mentioning the costs.

[bigherb]

I doubt if Hornby expect to sell rakes of

 

OK, so lets assume then that the Mk1 Graffiti coach existed/exists......if the artwork is as has been suggested earlier very complicated to produce then it still beggars the question why ?

You can see customers ordering say 6,7, 8 x Mk2e carriages or a full rake of GWR Suburbans (or buying them as signles with the aim of being able to build a rake up) for example and thus you get great returns on your investment but no one modeller is going to get their pre-order in for a rake of these oddballs.  If they have been convinced enough to buy the model instead of buying a regular maroon Mk1 and adding graphics very easily and cheaply themselves, theyre hardly going to require a whole rake of the things so I just dont get this model.  Only Hornby know the answer as to why they felt they would sell enough of these to produce a good profit.  I just dont see it from my humble POV.......

 

Heyho.......I can see somebody looking at Manchester Pullman Mk2s in the coming years which come in the two liveries and I think 3 brandings if you count the later years Inter-City Charter......Right up Bachmanns or Rapidos street Id think.  Detailed interiors and table lamps etc.

I doubt Hornby expect to sell them in rakes to anyone, they would appeal more to the casual punter who would be more familiar with the current style of yob splatter than the Rockers Rule type of before.

[rodger5591]

The newly announced Hornby non-corridor coaches are a different kettle of fish. They will represent Period III Stanier designs built from 1933 onwards with flush windows. The models are shown with welded bogies which dates them from around 1938 onwards.  The brake third is representative of D1907 built from 1933 to 1936 with only one pair of double luggage doors........The brake thirds should have riveted bogies (Hornby please note). It is fortuitous in that these coaches can be fitted with 3-window driving ends to convert them to a push & pull driving trailers. Coaches from D1964 onwards had two pairs of double luggage doors, something the push pull brake thirds never had. The spacing of the double doors also altered later on but I wont complicate matters further!

 

Thanks Coach

If the running numbers on the catalogue images are actually what Hornby will produce (and I have read them accurately), then the build dates are:

R4656 composite 16597          D1921 built 1934

R4657 all third 11963               D1906A built 1937

R4677/A brake/third 20724      D1907 built 1934

Then all should have rivetted bogies.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

So a long serving editor of the model railway press doesn't know what he is talking about, followed by "Simon Kohler may think the Pullmans sell but....."

 

These new 1928 cars are going to sell alright. They are pretty much the only thing my wife buys for the model railway: does she like beautiful coaching stock or what? If any maker cares to offer the LNER streamlined sets, Royal train vehicles (she's all over those whenever we visit the NRM and is threatening me with scratchbuilding) something like the L&Y businessman's club car being restored at Oxenhope, or possibly that GWR super saloon stock (her Grandda was a carriage shop foreman at Pighill) her credit card will be busy.

[Ian Hargrave]

These new 1928 cars are going to sell alright. They are pretty much the only thing my wife buys for the model railway: does she like beautiful coaching stock or what? If any maker cares to offer the LNER streamlined sets, Royal train vehicles (she's all over those whenever we visit the NRM and is threatening me with scratchbuilding) something like the L&Y businessman's club car being restored at Oxenhope, or possibly that GWR super saloon stock (her Grandda was a carriage shop foreman at Pighill) her credit card will be busy.

Where did you find such a treasure ?

[Talltim]

Don't show her this site

http://www.eightwheelermodels.com/(Scroll down a bit for pics of the model)

[The Stationmaster]

These new 1928 cars are going to sell alright. They are pretty much the only thing my wife buys for the model railway: does she like beautiful coaching stock or what? If any maker cares to offer the LNER streamlined sets, Royal train vehicles (she's all over those whenever we visit the NRM and is threatening me with scratchbuilding) something like the L&Y businessman's club car being restored at Oxenhope, or possibly that GWR super saloon stock (her Grandda was a carriage shop foreman at Pighill) her credit card will be busy.

I believe the correct translation is 'Pigs' Hill' as 'dun' defines it as a hill - of a particular shape in some translations - and the first syllable is of course obvious  (and Pigs' Hill was definitely what a lot of us used to call it when we were transferred there en masse on 1984/85).

[MikeParkin65]

Can I add something else.   I no longer whinge about prices and/or price increases.  Its something that is happening but ive just accepted it now that if I want to see manufactuers making brand new models I actually want to buy then I just buy them and accept thats the price I pay for detail and quality.

 

 

Couldn't agree more. The result of all the whinging before was half baked models that could have been great - think the Duke and the P2.

[lapford34102]

Wouldn't be too bad if they got it right, 08 822 is SO WRONG!

Commented on this in #243. I wouldn't panic just yet as I suspect it's a pre-pro model. Have you contacted them to

point the errors ?

 

 

How about a blue one that's easy to renumber without having to re-apply the top two black "wasp" stripes (that a small minority of examples had painted over) to the front side... ;-)

Yes, Hornby seem to have an aversion to "standard" liveries but perhaps they're leaving those to Bachmann. Still it's an excuse for a bit of modelling.

 

Think the FGW one quite smart move considering the other FGW bits going to be around and the amount of media coverage there's been.

 

Stu

[Dunsignalling]

Can I add something else.   I no longer whinge about prices and/or price increases.  Its something that is happening but ive just accepted it now that if I want to see manufactuers making brand new models I actually want to buy then I just buy them and accept thats the price I pay for detail and quality.

 

So whilst I think the comments about models specifics are always valid I think those rumblings now over prices ought to be laid to rest.  It is what it is........If prices stayed the same but we never saw retools or model updates or brand new models to the latest specs or models previously not produced we'd all be up in arms without even mentioning the costs.

The effect of price rises for me is simply to make me concentrate my spending on models I really want and will use.

 

Any off-topic delights have to be truly irresistable nowadays to tempt me from my path and half-baked compromises like the DoG and CotN didn't get a second glance.

 

The BR(S) items in Hornby's announcement will, along with a brace of Black Motors and various models on order from a certain Cornish emporium, absorb enough of my 2015 modelling budget to ensure I stick to my new-found self discipline!     

 

John