Class 800 - Updates

[Mark Saunders]

7 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

That's weird as yesterday I was reading a book about new trains including thr 800s and it suggested that all the ECML 9 Car sets only have a 'get you a fewmiles diesel engine. However I though it was what you state 

 

If that's the case does that mean Harrogate and Sunderland will loose their service and the proposed services to non electrified destinations was a non starter! 

[royaloak]

800s are full bi-mode, the 801s are electric with one (or 2) donkey engine(s).

 

The 5 car 800s have 3 diesel engines (822xxx, 823xxx and 824xxx coaches)

The 9 car 800s have 5 diesel engines (822xxx, 823xxx, 825xxx, 827xxx and 828xxx coaches)

the 5 car 801s have 1 diesel engine (822xxx coach, hotel power and clear the line)

the 9 car 801s have 2 diesel engines (822xxx and 828xxx coaches, hotel power and clear the line)

 

Saying that the 801s are more than capable of being moved on their diesel engines, just not very fast.

[Mallard60022]

50 minutes ago, royaloak said:

800s are full bi-mode, the 801s are electric with one (or 2) donkey engine(s).

 

The 5 car 800s have 3 diesel engines (822xxx, 823xxx and 824xxx coaches)

The 9 car 800s have 5 diesel engines (822xxx, 823xxx, 825xxx, 827xxx and 828xxx coaches)

the 5 car 801s have 1 diesel engine (822xxx coach, hotel power and clear the line)

the 9 car 801s have 2 diesel engines (822xxx and 828xxx coaches, hotel power and clear the line)

 

Saying that the 801s are more than capable of being moved on their diesel engines, just not very fast.

I'm sure you or someone has already told me that so apologies.

Harrogate, Hull etc are getting the Bimodes but possibly only the 5 Cars?

P

[royaloak]

51 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

I'm sure you or someone has already told me that so apologies.

Harrogate, Hull etc are getting the Bimodes but possibly only the 5 Cars?

P

No problem, it took me ages to get my head round which subclasses were which.

[Mallard60022]

Just to follow up what I was mumbling about a few posts back, about some know-all that was on the LNER Group on FB, arguing  the toss about the 800s and where they were 'built'. I dropped into the thread today and saw that he had tried telling a railway worker from Newton Aycliffe Factory what was what and then argued with the chap about them being British trains, fully built in this country. The kindly engineer laid into him something rotten and told him just what a t1t he was, along with posting a load of pics illustrating what goes on at NA. I am afraid I laughed, tried not to feel 'smug' as that would be unfair and gave the engineer a big thank you.

I see, from the book* I mentioned above, that the AT300 series for Hull Trains (802/3), Trans Pennine (802/2) and the west of England (802) have been and are fully finished abroad (Spain and Italy) as Newton Aycliffe is fully occupied.

The book* I have been given by a friend is The Railway Magazine published 'Britain's New Trains' and it covers many other Classes as well, even those that are not so 'new' such as the 700s.

For me, being ignorant of recent developments in new train building and having little interest really in bog carts, this book is brilliant.

Phil

[Ian Hargrave]

14 hours ago, royaloak said:

800s are full bi-mode, the 801s are electric with one (or 2) donkey engine(s).

 

The 5 car 800s have 3 diesel engines (822xxx, 823xxx and 824xxx coaches)

The 9 car 800s have 5 diesel engines (822xxx, 823xxx, 825xxx, 827xxx and 828xxx coaches)

the 5 car 801s have 1 diesel engine (822xxx coach, hotel power and clear the line)

the 9 car 801s have 2 diesel engines (822xxx and 828xxx coaches, hotel power and clear the line)

 

Saying that the 801s are more than capable of being moved on their diesel engines, just not very fast.

 

OK,being also bewildered by the introduction of new stock.thanks for this.Now can someone tell me which (if any) of the above are destined for the Highland mainline on Inverness-KX services in the near future.It presumably will need a few more donkeys.Or will the current HST remain for the foreseeable future ?

[Titan]

There are the class 802's with uprated engines (940 bhp v 750 bhp) and larger fuel tanks.  I am not sure which services/operators they will be destined for.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Titan said:

There are the class 802's with uprated engines (940 bhp v 750 bhp) and larger fuel tanks.  I am not sure which services/operators they will be destined for.

Apart from GWR of course - where they seem to crop up on all sorts of workings and not just West of England trains.  Maybe that will be sorted when (if?) the full IET timetale is introduced in December?

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, Titan said:

There are the class 802's with uprated engines (940 bhp v 750 bhp) and larger fuel tanks.  I am not sure which services/operators they will be destined for.

According to the book the 802s are bought in by First Group for Hull Trains and FGW (I think) and Trans Pennine have ordered theirs and these trains are not owned by Angel Trains as far as I can see. So, upgraded other stuff is destined for the Scottish services as far as I can see. There are, of course, new suburban units working and going to Scottish areas, but I can't see any main line stuff yet other than the 26 short formation refurbed HSTs.

One good thing is the Bombardier Aventra series Inter City version hoping tyo win orders for train replacement on east Midlands X Country and West Coast franchises. The book, of course, may be out of date about this sort of thing?

Phil 

Edited July 14, 2019 by Mallard60022
Daft grammar!

[Coryton]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Apart from GWR of course - where they seem to crop up on all sorts of workings and not just West of England trains.  Maybe that will be sorted when (if?) the full IET timetale is introduced in December?

 

I don't quite understand how this works.

 

From what I've read here the use of the 800s is tightly controlled by Hitachi via the contract arranged by the DfT, but the 802's were procured more directly by GWR and are treated differently.

 

So it seems odd that they seem to turn up on each other's diagrams.

[Ken.W]

5 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 

OK,being also bewildered by the introduction of new stock.thanks for this.Now can someone tell me which (if any) of the above are destined for the Highland mainline on Inverness-KX services in the near future.It presumably will need a few more donkeys.Or will the current HST remain for the foreseeable future ?

 

9 car 800's, as far as we know.

Remember, all our HSTs  will be non-compliant with PRM regulations on Jan 1st

 

3 hours ago, Titan said:

There are the class 802's with uprated engines (940 bhp v 750 bhp) and larger fuel tanks.  I am not sure which services/operators they will be destined for.

 

The 802's are for GWR, Hull Trains, and Trans-Pennine. These sets, with uprated engines etc, were all ordered directly by the TOCs concerned outside of the DfT led IEP procurement, and are owned independent of the DfT/IEP agreements.

All of LNER's sets however, will be standard DfT/IEP ordered versions - 800's (bi-mode), and 801's (electric), where in the world of DfT/Hitachi, having distributed drive allows them to defy the laws of gravity.

[rab]

1 hour ago, Coryton said:

 

I don't quite understand how this works.

 

From what I've read here the use of the 800s is tightly controlled by Hitachi via the contract arranged by the DfT, but the 802's were procured more directly by GWR and are treated differently.

 

So it seems odd that they seem to turn up on each other's diagrams.

I think you've answered you're own question.

800s, ordered under DfT control,

ridiculous usage/maintenance conditions.

802s, ordered independently,

less restrictive conditions

[Ken.W]

21 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

If that's the case does that mean Harrogate and Sunderland will loose their service and the proposed services to non electrified destinations was a non starter! 

 

No, LNER are getting Bi-mode 800s, both in 5 and 9 car sets. These were planned for the non electrified destinations, and there's the Highland services to start with.

 

20 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Harrogate, Hull etc are getting the Bimodes but possibly only the 5 Cars?

P

 

Possible Harrogate / Hull / Lincoln could be using the 5 car 800s, but we don't know what the ultimate plan is for the workings yet.

 

All the sets so far in service (and that I was on during training) are 9 car 800s - Bi-mode.

From what I've heard, the next stage will be when the 5 car 800s start coming in, these will take over the Leeds services (as 2x5s), and the 9 car 800s switch to starting the KGX - EDB services.

I'm afraid that, for an RM publication, that book doesn't seem to be particularly accurate

[Coryton]

2 hours ago, rab said:

I think you've answered you're own question.

800s, ordered under DfT control,

ridiculous usage/maintenance conditions.

802s, ordered independently,

less restrictive conditions

 

If I have answered my question, the answer escapes me.

 

How does a rigidly-controlled 800 end up on a digram that GWR should be putting one of 'their' 802s on?

[rab]

6 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

If I have answered my question, the answer escapes me.

 

How does a rigidly-controlled 800 end up on a digram that GWR should be putting one of 'their' 802s on?

Agree, I'm talking rubbish again, blame it on the heat

[Siberian Snooper]

If I remember correctly the  daft ordered bi-modes have less horsepower, which so long as the GW 800's don't head to Plymouth and Cornwall I don't think there's too much of a problem,  but up in Scotland when they run out of the juice they'll be a lame duck.

 

Apologies to any ducks that frequent this thread.

 

 

[Mallard60022]

5 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

No, LNER are getting Bi-mode 800s, both in 5 and 9 car sets. These were planned for the non electrified destinations, and there's the Highland services to start with.

Possible Harrogate / Hull / Lincoln could be using the 5 car 800s, but we don't know what the ultimate plan is for the workings yet.

All the sets so far in service (and that I was on during training) are 9 car 800s - Bi-mode.

From what I've heard, the next stage will be when the 5 car 800s start coming in, these will take over the Leeds services (as 2x5s), and the 9 car 800s switch to starting the KGX - EDB services.

I'm afraid that, for an RM publication, that book doesn't seem to be particularly accurate

Thanks ken  You have front line and respected knowledge so thank you. I suspect the magazine was put together quite some time back so it could be inaccurate to some degree. Good info about a range of new trains and plans for 2020 onwards though.

Phil

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

If I have answered my question, the answer escapes me.

 

How does a rigidly-controlled 800 end up on a digram that GWR should be putting one of 'their' 802s on?

I suspect what might be at the root of all this is that sets don't end up on correct diagrams or correctly rotating between diagrams.   Presumably the reason for that lies at the depots rather than elsewhere and if any penalty charges or 'enforcement' is involved I reckon GWR would no doubt accept any train that works rather than cancel a train because the right kind of set isn't available.

 

So when (if?) the full GWR IET timetable comes in in December things could get rather interesting if Hitachi aren't able to turn off depot the right sets in the right diagrams at the right times (let alone get them the right way round).

Edited July 15, 2019 by The Stationmaster
typo

[Coach bogie]

On 14/07/2019 at 13:02, Ken.W said:

 

 

Remember, all our HSTs  will be non-compliant with PRM regulations on Jan 1st

 

 

All of LNER's sets however, will be standard DfT/IEP ordered versions - 800's (bi-mode), and 801's (electric), where in the world of DfT/Hitachi, having distributed drive allows them to defy the laws of gravity.

 The staff on LNER have told my missus who travels every week, that they expect  to go over Hitachi fleets from the end of August on KGX NCL services.

 

I understood that some of the HST's are compliant. The The Railways (Interoperability) Regulations 2011 saw a full assessment of the HST and a table was published

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/203752/high-level-hst-mk3s.pdf

 

 

'areas where improvements to accessibility need to be made these vehicles to operate beyond 31 December 2019 - shown in red'

 

The EMT fleet seam to have the greatest challenge with their HST fleets.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

[Richard E]

2 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

 The staff on LNER have told my missus who travels every week, that they expect  to go over Hitachi fleets from the end of August on KGX NCL services.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

 

The LNER website was showing that through services to Edinburgh start on 1st August. That will, therefore, mean some trains servicing Newcastle will be 800 class units at that point.

[Mallard60022]

If you can stand the stress the LNER facebook threads are really illuminating as to how the travelling masses feel about these things. However it also gives lots of information about intro dates etc. If LNER have not got the message about the seats then they must be sticking their fingers in their ears, closing their eyes and going la, la ,la. 

I never took any real interest in the 125s and 225s when they were introduced. Did they have loads of teething problems? The Zoomers certainly seem technically a little fragile 'internally' at the moment with many problems with the Air Con and the bogs and food prep equipment. There are also loads of complaints about the poor luggage space and cases not fitting on the racks etc. (but some people do seem to have cases the size of a small car).

Phil 

[Zomboid]

Getting the message about the seats, and having the DfTs permission to do anything about it are two entirely different things. Though compared to the awful things in other modern units (387s & 700s, I'm looking at you) they're at least a reasonable shape.

 

Hopefully passengers will continue to make their views heard, and then maybe something will be done.

[Mallard60022]

10 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Getting the message about the seats, and having the DfTs permission to do anything about it are two entirely different things. Though compared to the awful things in other modern units (387s & 700s, I'm looking at you) they're at least a reasonable shape.

 

Hopefully passengers will continue to make their views heard, and then maybe something will be done.

Time after time I have posted on the LNER facebook threads that it isn't LNER it is the DFTs 'responsibility' that the seats are sh1te. Ordinary folk think the trains belong to LNER because they don't follow railways as an interest, only as a means of travel. I suspect that in a couple of years it will all have settled down, but I am not holding my breath.

P

Edited July 16, 2019 by Mallard60022
Spellin as always!

[Ken.W]

10 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

 The staff on LNER have told my missus who travels every week, that they expect  to go over Hitachi fleets from the end of August on KGX NCL services.

 

I understood that some of the HST's are compliant. The The Railways (Interoperability) Regulations 2011 saw a full assessment of the HST and a table was published

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/203752/high-level-hst-mk3s.pdf

 

 

'areas where improvements to accessibility need to be made these vehicles to operate beyond 31 December 2019 - shown in red'

 

The EMT fleet seam to have the greatest challenge with their HST fleets.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

 

It's been announced that from Aug 1st the 05:40 'Flying Scotsman', EDB - NCL - KGX only, will be the first Azoomer service for the north. More will be phased in over the following weeks.

 

As I understand it, power operated doors and retention toilets are now required for stock to operate beyond Dec 31st, which none of the LNER sets have.

Those that were planned to remain - the SR / GWR short sets, and XC's - are being converted to comply

LNER's are due to be replaced by 800s, and EMT's well, they got forgotten in the curtailment of MML electrification and endless delays to re-letting the franchise which hindered new stock or modifications being ordered

[Coach bogie]

I get the power operated doors requirement, but there appears to be exemptions letters being issued. Not all the rules appear to set in stone, especially as platform height varies dramatically around the system. Chiltern mark III for instance have been exempt on several counts.

 

Mike Wiltshire