Class 800 - Updates

[Richard E]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

LNER don't have as many opportunities as GWR for trains to end up facing the wrong way. Indeed I don't think I've ever seen a reverse formation ECML train, though no doubt such things have happened. Whereas the GWML is rife with such things. It was all HSTs when I commuted that way and they were frequently backwards too, so not just an IET issue in my experience.

It is not unheard of, usually a reversal of the set occurs if there are problems at Newcastle. I reckon that, on my commute, we used to get a set in reverse formation about once a month.

[31A]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

LNER don't have as many opportunities as GWR for trains to end up facing the wrong way. Indeed I don't think I've ever seen a reverse formation ECML train, though no doubt such things have happened. Whereas the GWML is rife with such things. It was all HSTs when I commuted that way and they were frequently backwards too, so not just an IET issue in my experience.

 

It's relatively unusual but trains can be turned at Newcastle if necessary by entering the station via the High Level Bridge rather than the King Edward Bridge, and then reversing in the station.  This can happen if (for example) there is a defect with the leading cab, or can happen if there is some sort of blockage at the KEB end.  At Edinburgh Waverley London-bound trains (but not electric ones!) can leave westwards and go round the Edinburgh suburban line which puts them the wrong way round.  I think this is usually when there's planned engineering work in the Waverley-Craigentinny area.

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

Grand Central’s 180s are serviced at Heaton, but don’t think I’ve ever seen an HT one there.

 

I do wonder though if HT’s sets are actually serviced anywhere...

There was major disruption on the route Saturday three weeks ago when, to add to a serious signalling failure in the Shaftholme area (Emergency Special Working was required), another HT 180 decided to have an engine fire further south, the third in recent months I believe. I’ve never heard of any such incident on GC’s ‘identical’ sets

Ah yes. GC 180s at Heaton; my mistake. I think I was chatting to a GC member of staff on first day of service at Donny. Elsewhere on this thread  they were said to be going to Wakefield somewhere. That's probably just for fuel and toilet flush. Mechanical/Electrical Servicing....I think you are correct; bu##er all by the looks of it.

That incident you talked about, the 180 was stopped with smoke filled coach at Bawtry on the main line; huge disruption for a few hours. Donny Signallers did a magnificent job in the circumstances. Tornado went all over the place to eventually reach Retford 90 minutes down.

Last Monday the Beverly service was stopped at Retford and thus my train home at about 13.38 from the X was cancelled. The whole fleet is on its' last legs.

Anyway, back to 800s.

Phil

[Ken.W]

On 01/07/2019 at 18:14, Mallard60022 said:

Was so engaged in trying to find out what to do, being clever (so I thought) & going to Platform 0 where the Newark service was supposed to be, then seeing it was now going from P6 (thanks RTT and I Phone), that I didn't note any Unit Numbers. Then I dived on the Leeds Zoomer at Platform 7 as I was rushing and then realising it was the Leeds and our Zoomer was on P6 (as I had just read on my phone), getting off the Leeds blah, blah and feeling a real kn0b for not being in control. Doh, and I'm supposed to know something about what trains are all about! 

 

This and other similar apps are actually a damed  nuisance at KX giving out platform ‘information’ before it’s actually announced!

 

Besides the matter that platforms are only announced once the train’s actually ready for boarding, so they don’t get passengers boarding early getting in the way of the train prep teams, and delaying the train being ready to board, these apps also often actually give incorrect information.

 

There’s frequently operational reasons for platform changes at KX, such as set swaps, either planned or at times last minute to give the fitters more time to deal with a fault that’s occurred on the inward journey, or delayed arrivals meaning the booked platform’s unavailable etc. And these apps still just show the booked platform and seem incapable of keeping up to date.

We then get passengers coming up to a train that’s just come in asking if it’s the one for wherever, only to have to tell them it’s not....And just you try convincing some people, particularly of a certain generation, that a phone app could possibly be wrong and not know better than the driver where the train’s going!

 

Worse still though, I’ve seen people actually miss their train due to these apps and following their information sitting on the wrong train.

They shouldn’t be allowed to show platform information until it’s actually confirmed

 

[Mallard60022]

12 minutes ago, Ken.W said:

 

This and other similar apps are actually a damed  nuisance at KX giving out platform ‘information’ before it’s actually announced!

 

Besides the matter that platforms are only announced once the train’s actually ready for boarding, so they don’t get passengers boarding early getting in the way of the train prep teams, and delaying the train being ready to board, these apps also often actually give incorrect information.

 

There’s frequently operational reasons for platform changes at KX, such as set swaps, either planned or at times last minute to give the fitters more time to deal with a fault that’s occurred on the inward journey, or delayed arrivals meaning the booked platform’s unavailable etc. And these apps still just show the booked platform and seem incapable of keeping up to date.

We then get passengers coming up to a train that’s just come in asking if it’s the one for wherever, only to have to tell them it’s not....And just you try convincing some people, particularly of a certain generation, that a phone app could possibly be wrong and not know better than the driver where the train’s going!

 

Worse still though, I’ve seen people actually miss their train due to these apps and following their information sitting on the wrong train.

They shouldn’t be allowed to show platform information until it’s actually confirmed

 

Absolutely. I tried to be clever and failed, well almost. It was a case of not the train intended so I was attempting to beat the 200+ passengers from the HT cancellation onto the Newark Zoomer, which we sort of achieved and fortunately there was a lot of room due to booked but not taken seats which is anther PITA I am sure for train staff. Being dim I still don't quite get how so many seats are booked but not taken; a couple yes, but half a coach worth? Bonkers.

Am I imagining things but has train booking and actual travel become more complicated then it was when I were but a lad in shorts? Post war before anyone makes a jibe.

P

 

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Being dim I still don't quite get how so many seats are booked but not taken; a couple yes, but half a coach worth? Bonkers.

It'sbeen like that ever since reservations were free - people doing return trips suffer no loss by booking a seat just in case, and the online booking systems in use these days positively encourage it by automatically offering the option.

 

Jim

[Mallard60022]

24 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

It'sbeen like that ever since reservations were free - people doing return trips suffer no loss by booking a seat just in case, and the online booking systems in use these days positively encourage it by automatically offering the option.

 

Jim

Presumably that's Open Returns Jim? However, on almost every journey I take I see people wandering around looking for a seat and passing by the reserved ones as they think they are taken, even though it may be that the station from which it was booked was passed ages ago. I wonder if the electronic ones  will make it easier to see that the seat is fairly obviously vacant or there may be some sort of cancelling system for the Train Manager? Am I right in thinking some trains have seat sensors showing if the seat is empty and there are displays in the coaches showing vacancies; was it the 700s?

Phil

Edited July 5, 2019 by Mallard60022

[jim.snowdon]

Just now, Mallard60022 said:

Presumably that's Open Returns Jim?

Phil

No - any type of return, and even those who travel on an Advance single one way and an off-peak single for the return.

 

Jim

[Mallard60022]

5 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

No - any type of return, and even those who travel on an Advance single one way and an off-peak single for the return.

 

Jim

So they take the seat on the advanced single presumably and then book a seat for an off peak single coming back or whatever as they need to be flexible (presumably then any suitable service having not used their original booked seat train service ?)  I know I'm dim but is that how it happens? I don't do that as I almost always have designated trains only using advance fares on every trip as it appears less expensive (except on the London Suburban services where fares are standard throughout the off peak and rarely book a seat on any of these, even though you can on some (eg Javelin as this Monday back to London from Kent). 

Apologies for my ignorance mate.

Phil 

[Bomag]

2 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

This and other similar apps are actually a damed  nuisance at KX giving out platform ‘information’ before it’s actually announced!

 

Besides the matter that platforms are only announced once the train’s actually ready for boarding, so they don’t get passengers boarding early getting in the way of the train prep teams, and delaying the train being ready to board, these apps also often actually give incorrect information.

 

There’s frequently operational reasons for platform changes at KX, such as set swaps, either planned or at times last minute to give the fitters more time to deal with a fault that’s occurred on the inward journey, or delayed arrivals meaning the booked platform’s unavailable etc. And these apps still just show the booked platform and seem incapable of keeping up to date.

We then get passengers coming up to a train that’s just come in asking if it’s the one for wherever, only to have to tell them it’s not....And just you try convincing some people, particularly of a certain generation, that a phone app could possibly be wrong and not know better than the driver where the train’s going!

 

Worse still though, I’ve seen people actually miss their train due to these apps and following their information sitting on the wrong train.

They shouldn’t be allowed to show platform information until it’s actually confirmed

 

 

The damed nuicance is the combination of an inability to operate KX properly and poor customer service. While there is regular disruption requiring set swaps the main problem is the time it takes to show a train on the board once it has been prepared. Some of the apps e.g RTT are fine but depend on the system being updated properly. KX has always been like this, for the short time I worked in KX east side offices in 1989 the RCE staff were always happy to share tales of the many ways of stuffing up the station. The one improvement is the ability to stand at the platform end in the light and not in the gloom of the old concourse.    

[jim.snowdon]

Phil,

 

You've got the idea, although you seem like a remarkably well-ordered passenger. Any time I am going anywhere or the day on business, I usually get an Advance Single for the outward trip, as I am nominally in control of events, and an off-peak single for the return, as I have no idea exactly when any meeting will end. It did take a while, though, to get get it through to some of our TOs that getting an Advance ticket for the return might be cheap but of no practical use if you want to get the job done properly.

 

Jim

[Chris116]

The biggest problem with seat reservations is that having carefully booked a window seat facing direction of travel for every journey I have done in the past five years, I have lost cou t of the number that have either been aisle seats or back to direction of travel. It is probably around 40% that are wrong, so I just find an unbooked seat and sit there. Before five years ago I would say the failure rate was under 10%. Some of the TOC's now won't let you book facing or back to direction of travel which says a lot about how confident they are as to which way round the train will be. 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

It'sbeen like that ever since reservations were free - people doing return trips suffer no loss by booking a seat just in case, and the online booking systems in use these days positively encourage it by automatically offering the option.

 

Jim

It used to be a real problem at KX with folk booking seats on three different return trains in the early evening in particular because they weren't sure what time they'd get away from a business meeting etc.

[Siberian Snooper]

The last time I had an all line rover, I went into the booking office at Waverley to make a seat reservation and the young lady serving me made a comment about some companies making block reservations of seats on certain trains and very rarely using them.

 

 

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Phil,

 

You've got the idea, although you seem like a remarkably well-ordered passenger. Any time I am going anywhere or the day on business, I usually get an Advance Single for the outward trip, as I am nominally in control of events, and an off-peak single for the return, as I have no idea exactly when any meeting will end. It did take a while, though, to get get it through to some of our TOs that getting an Advance ticket for the return might be cheap but of no practical use if you want to get the job done properly.

 

Jim

Ah Jim, I am an old far# passenger that doesn't really need to do work or stuff like that, however an optional return is something I'll consider, even if it is a few quid more it gives loads more flexibility, so thanks for your explanation; most informative and at last I understand why there are so many unused seats on the trains out of the X.

P

1 hour ago, Chris116 said:

The biggest problem with seat reservations is that having carefully booked a window seat facing direction of travel for every journey I have done in the past five years, I have lost cou t of the number that have either been aisle seats or back to direction of travel. It is probably around 40% that are wrong, so I just find an unbooked seat and sit there. Before five years ago I would say the failure rate was under 10%. Some of the TOC's now won't let you book facing or back to direction of travel which says a lot about how confident they are as to which way round the train will be. 

….and now Chris on the Zoomers, you need to have read a survey of the large number of seats that do not have a window view at all and the ones that are only a part view before you book. One great thing about LNER booking and through the Company not that Train Line that I have been put off for booking but still use for journey planning to some degree, is that you can choose your seat(s) and change the seat(s) after you have got your booking so you don't just get their random seat.

Phil

Edited July 5, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Mallard60022]

42 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

The last time I had an all line rover, I went into the booking office at Waverley to make a seat reservation and the young lady serving me made a comment about some companies making block reservations of seats on certain trains and very rarely using them.

 

 

Apologies for drifting through this seat thing, but it is relevant to Zoomers as well as many other trains. I am sure I read somewhere that there was some sort of plan that passengers could book seats from their bl##dy phone as they got on the train? Also, wasn't Virgin WC mooting something about people only allowed on a service with a reservation (like a plane)?

I like Kings Cross these days and I am sure the Staff there are actually committed to passengers being informed and respected. However, for such a large station  there are not a lot of front line staff at the platforms. Plenty of ancillary staff dealing with train prep etc who are charming if they speak English but tend to not know what's what about the services. Can't blame them really as their job is very time pressured.

Hull Trains have no one at the X as far as I know and possibly GC as well?

Phil

Edited July 5, 2019 by Mallard60022

[talisman56]

5 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Absolutely. I tried to be clever and failed, well almost. It was a case of not the train intended so I was attempting to beat the 200+ passengers from the HT cancellation onto the Newark Zoomer, which we sort of achieved and fortunately there was a lot of room due to booked but not taken seats which is anther PITA I am sure for train staff. Being dim I still don't quite get how so many seats are booked but not taken; a couple yes, but half a coach worth? Bonkers.

Am I imagining things but has train booking and actual travel become more complicated then it was when I were but a lad in shorts? Post war before anyone makes a jibe.

P

 

 

I can beat that - a recent trip to the capital saw me and SWMBO plus 4 other customers in a coach where all the seats had a reservation ticket jammed in the top of the seat - of those, only about 1/3 were taken up further in the journey by people obviously looking for a seat reservation (as opposed to the people who were wondering where the h3ll to sit because all the seats are reserved...)

[Oldddudders]

4 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Apologies for drifting through this seat thing, but it is relevant to Zoomers as well as many other trains. I am sure I read somewhere that there was some sort of plan that passengers could book seats from their bl##dy phone as they got on the train? Also, wasn't Virgin WC mooting something about people only allowed on a service with a reservation (like a plane)?

I like Kings Cross these days and I am sure the Staff there are actually committed to passengers being informed and respected. However, for such a large station  there are not a lot of front line staff at the platforms. Plenty of ancillary staff dealing with train prep etc who are charming if they speak English but tend to not know what's what about the services. Can't blame them really as their job is very time pressured.

Hull Trains have no one at the X as far as I know and possibly GC as well?

Phil

To the best of my vague recollection, Phil, the whole principle of station management should exclude the need for TOCs to provide a presence. KX, I think, is run by Network Rail, possibly in an organisation called Major Stations. This was set up in a hurry in 1996 by Railtrack, when TOCs told them unilaterally that managing big termini and the like was not their business. NR manage it on behalf of all users, aka the Beneficiaries in the 1993 Act. I believe TOCs may choose to have local staff if they choose, by agreement with NR.

 

Equally, the typical through station, where multiple TOCs may call, is managed by a Station Facility Operator, usually the TOC which has the most trains call. Minor TOCs are entitled to expect their customers to receive whatever help they need. 

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

To the best of my vague recollection, Phil, the whole principle of station management should exclude the need for TOCs to provide a presence. KX, I think, is run by Network Rail, possibly in an organisation called Major Stations. This was set up in a hurry in 1996 by Railtrack, when TOCs told them unilaterally that managing big termini and the like was not their business. NR manage it on behalf of all users, aka the Beneficiaries in the 1993 Act. I believe TOCs may choose to have local staff if they choose, by agreement with NR.

Correct, although as a frequent user, it would be very easy to think that Paddington was a (First) Great Western station. Almost the only giveaway that it is not is the now free toilets (I couldn't see FGW missing out on a revenue stream!).

 

Jim

[rodent279]

Reading through all this, particularly about the seat reservations, makes me think that the reservation system is long overdue for complete overhaul, and a degree of commonality between operators.

Maybe reservations should be compulsory on journeys over a certain length? Maybe they should all incur a charge?

I'm not sure that the free for all approach has really worked.

 

Regarding formations, as sets being the wrong way round-this seems to be more of a problem with the 5-car sets, AIUI. Why were the 5-car sets not built with 1st class split, half at each end?

[Zomboid]

I think the Japanese have a good reservation system. Some trains are reservation only, others have well publicised reserved and unreserved carriages.

 

There's no on-train indication of a reservation, you just know that if you sit in a reserved carriage without a reservation then you'll get turfed out most likely.

 

Not having any indication on the trains means that you can reserve a seat right up until just before departure from any station (10 minutes was the shortest reservation to departure interval that I managed), so it's still effectively a walk-up system but with reservations.

 

I don't think the reservations are generally free though.

[Mallard60022]

21 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Correct, although as a frequent user, it would be very easy to think that Paddington was a (First) Great Western station. Almost the only giveaway that it is not is the now free toilets (I couldn't see FGW missing out on a revenue stream!).

 

Jim

Edited July 6, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

Reading through all this, particularly about the seat reservations, makes me think that the reservation system is long overdue for complete overhaul, and a degree of commonality between operators.

Maybe reservations should be compulsory on journeys over a certain length? Maybe they should all incur a charge?

I'm not sure that the free for all approach has really worked.

 

Regarding formations, as sets being the wrong way round-this seems to be more of a problem with the 5-car sets, AIUI. Why were the 5-car sets not built with 1st class split, half at each end?

Hull Trains have a quick way of dealing with seat reservations on sets the wrong way round or a replacement HST for a dead 180. Stick black tape over the seat numbers on the HST luggage racks and just stick tickets in the seats but not as shown on the outside of the coach. Then it is play hunt the seat.

On the reversed 180s they seem to just let chaos reign on a stuffed service and rely on helpful passengers assisting the less mobile and less assertive who find their seat occupied and the occupier not willing to shift their arse as they think they are in the right. Poor old Train Manager. Poor old folk that don't like to cause a fuss etc. Hey ho!  Sure it only happens occasionally, but the 11.39 HT from Reford to the X service (and the similarly timed return in the PM from the X) at the moment seems to be taken up by the Humberside going on/coming back from holiday hordes with the cases to prove it!

Such fun.

Back to the 800s. The LNER Facebook threads about the Zoomers continues to enetertain. Really gives an insight into the (probably) regular users of the ECML and Leeds services.

Hey ho.

P

[The Stationmaster]

Reserving seats on trains which are already on their way strikes me as one of the daftest ideas the privytised railway a has yet come up with.  Cross Country do it and it is a considerable disincentive to take a long journey with them as you can settle yourself in clearly unreserved seats I only to find - long before you are going to alight - that someone gets on and claims you are sitting in their reserved seat.  Fortunately it has never happened to me but I saw an example of it a while back which very nearly descended to fisticuffs.

I know they now show something about 'This seat may be reserved during the journey' but that's not much help to an old lady travelling from York to Bournemouth who didn't  reserve a seat in advance and isn't aware that they play this trick on unsuspecting irregular travellers.

[Coryton]

On 05/07/2019 at 10:07, caradoc said:

While the Zone numbers on GWR stations are intended to be helpful, I'm not sure they really are. At Oxford for example, Cross Country services are now announced as 'First Class in Zone x', instead of at front or rear as before, which means walking along the platform looking down to find the number ! At least the Staff Information screens still give train formations, as Stationmaster says.

 

And the location of 1st class helpfully announced for a 166 on a service where the 1st class sections are declassified because the timetable shows the train as standard class only...