Hornby Merchant Navy announced (formerly Facebook leak)

[SRman]

Wasn't Channel Packet first introduced in plain black? Again, I don't have my references immediately to hand to say when it was first painted green. Certainly Bachmann's Bulleid coaches are out of the picture because they are of the post-nationalisation build.

[toboldlygo]

Wasn't Channel Packet first introduced in plain black? Again, I don't have my references immediately to hand to say when it was first painted green. Certainly Bachmann's Bulleid coaches are out of the picture because they are of the post-nationalisation build.

 

No when first built Channel Packet was in Matt Malachite Green, with yellow lines, it wasn't painted black till January 1944.

[Dick Turpin]

It's great that so many people can be pedantic about the un-rebuilt/air smoothed thing, and then finish off their post with a green grocer's apostrophe or two. ;-)

[Ian Hargrave]

It's great that so many people can be pedantic about the un-rebuilt/air smoothed thing, and then finish off their post with a green grocer's apostrophe or two. ;-)

This simply is not pedantry.Bulleid's terminology was " airsmoothed" ...no thing about it... which is how they were referred to when first built.The shape of their design was both modern and revolutionary and remained so until all his locomotives were rebuilt or withdrawn.

 

TBG knows more ( apart from Graham M ) than most of us about Bulleid locos. His views should be respected as a talented modeller and enthusiast.He is not a greengrocer.

[Robin Brasher]

It looks like a nightmare to model with so many variations. I am not surprised that Hornby and its predecessors have left it so long to model on 00 gauge after its TT gauge Clan Line.

[toboldlygo]

This simply is not pedantry.Bulleid's terminology was " airsmoothed" ...no thing about it... which is how they were referred to when first built.The shape of their design was both modern and revolutionary and remained so until all his locomotives were rebuilt or withdrawn.

 

TBG knows more ( apart from Graham M ) than most of us about Bulleid locos. His views should be respected as a talented modeller and enthusiast.He is not a greengrocer.

 

They wouldn't of been Air-smoothed at one point in their design process, they could of looked like Q1 with a Pacific wheel arrangement...

 

Erm... my late Father was a greengrocer for a time and I was briefly at 16 (at a certain well known supermarket chain - before the like of Asda, Lidl, etc appeared), before going off to be apprenticed in the dark-arts of sheet metal work. 

Edited August 21, 2016 by toboldlygo

[toboldlygo]

It looks like a nightmare to model with so many variations. I am not surprised that Hornby and its predecessors have left it so long to model on 00 gauge after its TT gauge Clan Line.

 

The tenders of the Air-smoothed MN's are a nightmare in themselves - 5,000gl (one lower rear step), 5,000gl (2 lower rear steps), 5,100gl tender, 6,000gl tender, Mechanical stoker fitted tender, Coal Weighing Tender, Stanier, WC/BoB Tenders (4,500gl & 5,500gl) and not too mention the different configurations of vacuum tankers (5,000gl's tenders) and then the cut-down versions!! 

 

They are just the ones off the top of my head

[Oldddudders]

It's great that so many people can be pedantic about the un-rebuilt/air smoothed thing, and then finish off their post with a green grocer's apostrophe or two. ;-)

Does that observation really add value to the thread?

[Robin Brasher]

I have noticed that some comments add an enormous amount of value to a thread and some are irrelevant. For instance the thread on the 4TCs has gone completely off the subject. It is not unknown for the descendant of a greengrocer to rise to the highest rank in society. I think Graham Muz's comments about the dates represented by the models of Channel Packet and Royal Mail are the most useful ones as they have inspired me to create a realistic train with a Bulleid Pacific with some Maunsell coaches. I wonder if there were any olive green Maunsell coaches around at that time for those Bulleid locomotives to haul as well as goods and parcels trains.

 

It is ironic that Hornby have spent so much time in creating perfect replicas of the Merchant Navy class locomotives and then to go on to describe them as "un-rebuilt" in their catalogue. In the same catalogue Hornby has described their original Princess Coronation class locomotive as air smoothed and put no adjective against Camelford. To me no adjective or original or air-smoothed makes sense: un-rebuilt does not.

[Spannerman]

Wasn't Channel Packet first introduced in plain black? Again, I don't have my references immediately to hand to say when it was first painted green. Certainly Bachmann's Bulleid coaches are out of the picture because they are of the post-nationalisation build.

Were any of the air smoothed Bulleids painted in wartime black? It would certainly be a livery that would appeal to me.

If not produced in black did the Southern have such a stock of paint that they could coat a whole class of loco's?

 

Nik

[Graham_Muz]

Were any of the air smoothed Bulleids painted in wartime black? It would certainly be a livery that would appeal to me.

If not produced in black did the Southern have such a stock of paint that they could coat a whole class of loco's?

Nik

All 20 of the first two series of Merchant Navys were painted in Black.

 

Numbers 21c1 to 21c6 were introduced in malachite but succumbed to black post May 1942. Numbers 21c7 to 20 were all introduced in black.

 

Repainting into malachite commenced in August 1945 starting with 21c18 and 21c20 and all 20 were so repainted by August 1947 with 21c8 being the last.

[Robin Brasher]

Graham Muz has answered Spannerman's question but you may also like to look at the chapter headed "liveries" on page 139 of Bulleid Power published in 1990. He mentions that by July 1941 the Southern Railway decided that all locomotives except the 130 express locomotives of the "Lord Nelson", "King Arthur" and "Schools" classes should be painted unlined black.

 

There are some pictures of Blue Star on page 59, and Elders Fyffes on page 140 both in black with no lining in his book. According to page 141 21C11 - 21 were all initially painted in black without lining.

 

The book also mentions on page 139 that Channel Packet was originally painted in matt malachite green: it will be interesting to see if Hornby's version has a matt finish.

[Ian Hargrave]

They wouldn't of been Air-smoothed at one point in their design process, they could of looked like Q1 with a Pacific wheel arrangement...

 

Erm... my late Father was a green grocer for a time and I was briefly at 16 (at a certain well known supermarket chain - before the like of Asda, Lidl, etc appeared), before going off to be apprenticed in the dark-arts of sheet metal work.

 

It is said apparently that confession is good for the soul. Edited August 21, 2016 by Ian Hargrave

[Peter Bedding]

More than ever, there is a need for a suite of r-t-p station buildings to the designs of Sir William Tite. They would not have to be either monumental, or prohibitively large. Chard Junction or Broad Clyst are not particularly demanding.

 

PB

[jjb1970]

I'm sure that the minefield that was the air smoothed Merchany Navy is one of the reasons we have waited so long for an RTR manufacturer to have a go. There are so many possible permutations and unless you make a decent stab of doing most of them then a large part of the potential customer base will whinge about "why-oh-why did they do this version and not that one....". Hornby do seem to be designing these to capture as many of the variations as possible and the images look very promising. I can't wait for these.

[Ian Hargrave]

Just looking again at a photo in my well-thumbed edition of Norman Lockett's Southern Steam in the West Country of 21C1 heading a Waterloo-bound express dated 15/10/1948 .Stock appears an even mix of Bulleid and Maunsell.The caption notes : "Other than the early modification to the front smoke trough,the locomotive is still in original form,including the cast brass number and ownership plates affixed to the cabside and tender." i.e. Lined malachite and Southern on tender.Ten months into nationalisation.

[paftrain]

I have noticed that some comments add an enormous amount of value to a thread and some are irrelevant. For instance the thread on the 4TCs has gone completely off the subject. It is not unknown for the descendant of a greengrocer to rise to the highest rank in society. I think Graham Muz's comments about the dates represented by the models of Channel Packet and Royal Mail are the most useful ones as they have inspired me to create a realistic train with a Bulleid Pacific with some Maunsell coaches. I wonder if there were any olive green Maunsell coaches around at that time for those Bulleid locomotives to haul as well as goods and parcels trains.

 

It is ironic that Hornby have spent so much time in creating perfect replicas of the Merchant Navy class locomotives and then to go on to describe them as "un-rebuilt" in their catalogue. In the same catalogue Hornby has described their original Princess Coronation class locomotive as air smoothed and put no adjective against Camelford. To me no adjective or original or air-smoothed makes sense: un-rebuilt does not.

When we were spotting the real things way back then, we did call them ‘unrebuilts’ even though it might have been incorrect, but when we were 10-12 years old we didn’t care!  As far as we are concerned, they are still ‘unrebuilt’. We also called them ‘unmodified’, ‘square bellies’, and ‘flat-tops’. Who cares - it was (and still is) fun!

Thanks Hornby, I’ll have a few, please, when they come out.

[Robin Brasher]

Another picture

 

When we were spotting the real things way back then, we did call them ‘unrebuilts’ even though it might have been incorrect, but when we were 10-12 years old we didn’t care!  As far as we are concerned, they are still ‘unrebuilt’. We also called them ‘unmodified’, ‘square bellies’, and ‘flat-tops’. Who cares - it was (and still is) fun!

Thanks Hornby, I’ll have a few, please, when they come out.

When I was spotting in the late 1950s I did not realise they had been rebuilt. I thought the Bulleid Pacifics had been replaced by Britannias.

[Robin Brasher]

Another picture on page 158 of Bulleid Power shows 21C1 soon after it was built hauling a long freight train consisting of a mixture of vans and open wagons. I cannot see the SR markings on the wagons.

[phil gollin]

Does that observation really add value to the thread?

.

 

I don't know, but as pedantry is the order of the day, I would note that "greengrocer" is a single word, not two.

[Robin Brasher]

When 257 Squadron was running on the Swanage Railway a lady passenger said that it was not a real steam engine like Thomas the Tank engine: it was just a box on wheels. Let us hope that when she sees a model of an airsmoothed Merchant Navy she is more appreciative.

[Oldddudders]

When 257 Squadron was running on the Swanage Railway a lady passenger said that it was not a real steam engine like Thomas the Tank engine: it was just a box on wheels. Let us hope that when she sees a model of an airsmoothed Merchant Navy she is more appreciative.

Presumably it lacked eyes nose and mouth on the front? You can see her point.

[Robin Brasher]

I have been looking at the availability of N gauge Merchant Navy Pacifics on the Hattons site. They have 3 left in BR green with the early emblem so these may be the least popular models. It will be interesting to see which of the Hornby models is the most popular.

[GreenGiraffe22]

Can't wait to add one to my wartime layout

[SRman]

I was given to understand that the shape was intended to be able to go through a carriage washing plant. Whether they ever did is another question entirely ... I don't think they did.