Bachmann Branchline announcements for 2015/6

[Black 5 Bear]

Because traditionally Hornby doesn't announce models until they are much closer to production. The others seem to announce them as soon as they've had the idea. Bachmann announced their all-new 158 back in 2011. According to their most recent update it still hasn't left the drawing office.

 

Paul

In that case, it would probably be better for Bachmann to delay announcements of forthcoming releases until they are close to achieving actual production.

[jjb1970]

This is one of the endless questions for manufacturers. If they announce early like Bachmann then they will be blamed for endless delays, people will whinge that the model will never arrive etc etc. If they leave it until late as Hornby tend to do (noing they still suffer major delays) then if another manufacturer announces the model before they do it is Hornby who are accused of copying, bullying smaller manufacturers by trying to trump their releases regardless of the fact Hornby may well have been working on the project a lot longer etc etc. So whichever way they do it they'll upset people or get into problems themselves. My own preference is to leave it until later but that is just me and the manufacturers are in a damned if they do, damned if they don't scenario.

[Ian Hargrave]

I have a simple question here. Is there a quasi-legal requirement that all manufacturers of model railway products have an obligation to market their wares in identical fashion and to be answerable to an appropriate select committee for their production and marketing strategies ?

[Legend]

Because traditionally Hornby doesn't announce models until they are much closer to production. The others seem to announce them as soon as they've had the idea. Bachmann announced their all-new 158 back in 2011. According to their most recent update it still hasn't left the drawing office.

 

Paul

 

Yes I think that's the crux of it. When you think about it , how can you accurately cost a model and therefore determine its selling price before you have even the basic design finalised. I think Bachmann really have to look at the way they do things. I remember when they extended the validity of their catalogue to 1 year to 18 months , now it appears it could be up to 4 years! They really are losing credibility. It looks like new model announcements are nothing more than staking a peg in the ground saying we intend to make this at some stage in the future.

 

With these prices I do see them leaving the mass market and becoming more of a niche manufacturer. New models at higher prices and lower volume manufacturing runs.

 

I do note the diagram of their JJA wagon in the catalogue with 175 parts , some of them very fine. You can see how that would be manually intensive  and I do appreciate that that would increase costs (although I still think for the majority of models the labour content is way over egged!). Models like that with costs >£50 and you really need a rake of them, are surely only going to appeal or be affordable to the really dedicated enthusiast in the future. I'm not sure these wagon designs can be viable . Again , I think leading to Bachmann heading towards more niche markets.

[bacon butty]

As someone who was an injection mould toolmaker up to just over 10 years ago I would like to explain some issues that manufacturers will experience.

 

Injection toolmaking is incredibly specialist. In the UK if you wanted to get a job in a Toolroom to work on mould tools you will either have come through an apprenticeship or will have come from another injection mould makers.

Companies who mould or make tools have no ownership of them so the risk of damage etc. to high cost tooling has to be kept to a minimum. You will never see a hammer for example - copper/hide mallets are the norm. When making tools nothing is ever checked by anyone other than the toolmaker whem making moulds so if something does go wrong it can be litterally hundreds of hours into the process.

If I go through part of the design process a CAD drawing will be done and passed onto another set of people who design the mould tools. These drawings are reversals of the original CAD. The toolmaker will then transpose these back to the other way around to make electrodes for the spark erosion process. These will be slightly different in size to cover what is called spark gap. The toolmaker doesn't get drawings for electrodes. If mistakes happen at this point you are up against it!!

As you can start to see it is very complicated to say the least and very skilled.

What this leads to is that toolmakers of injection mould tools are treated a little like a commodity and if there is a shortage (which there always is) wages can sudenly escalate.

 

Also in relation to Plastic Mouldings the guys who set up the tool in the press are again highly skilled. They are given a guidance sheet of what settings to put in - but this is a guidance only and then they will tweek the settings as they go along. Each press is different. These guys also set the robot up that removes the moulding... I personally so 2 mould tools desroyed. 1 Cost in excess of £100,000 and was scrapped. The other lost a multi million £ order - they withdrew their business and went somewhere else.

20 years ago the technicians were expected to have a HNC for this and went to college at the same time as toolmakers.

 

The above isn't an excuse for models going up dramatically but it may help people understand what can happen. In the mid ninetys we got a £1.50 an hour pay rise one day as 2 guys had left within a month. We had 20 guys in the toolroom. I think someone has said Kader employ 400 toolmakers!!

 

Stuart

[Ozexpatriate]

I have a simple question here. Is there a quasi-legal requirement that all manufacturers of model railway products have an obligation to market their wares in identical fashion and to be answerable to an appropriate select committee for their production and marketing strategies ?

Ian I trust this question is rhetorical.

[Ian Hargrave]

Ian I trust this question is rhetorical.

Well,make of it what you will. No responses so far.

[micklner]

Yes I think that's the crux of it. When you think about it , how can you accurately cost a model and therefore determine its selling price before you have even the basic design finalised. I think Bachmann really have to look at the way they do things. I remember when they extended the validity of their catalogue to 1 year to 18 months , now it appears it could be up to 4 years! They really are losing credibility. It looks like new model announcements are nothing more than staking a peg in the ground saying we intend to make this at some stage in the future.

 

With these prices I do see them leaving the mass market and becoming more of a niche manufacturer. New models at higher prices and lower volume manufacturing runs.

 

I do note the diagram of their JJA wagon in the catalogue with 175 parts , some of them very fine. You can see how that would be manually intensive  and I do appreciate that that would increase costs (although I still think for the majority of models the labour content is way over egged!). Models like that with costs >£50 and you really need a rake of them, are surely only going to appeal or be affordable to the really dedicated enthusiast in the future. I'm not sure these wagon designs can be viable . Again , I think leading to Bachmann heading towards more niche markets.

Re JJA and similar.

 

Very simple sell them as kits .

[jjb1970]

 

I have a simple question here. Is there a quasi-legal requirement that all manufacturers of model railway products have an obligation to market their wares in identical fashion and to be answerable to an appropriate select committee for their production and marketing strategies ?

 

Maybe we could add this to DafT's remit? After their splendid performance micro-managing the IEP program (for which I do not blame Hitachi at all, it amazes me many see Hitachi as the villain in that sorry saga) I confidently predict that within a year we will have one manufacturer making model trains as directed by a geezer in DafT under a PFI scheme which will deliver efficiencies to modellers by forcing us to lease a 1/50 scale model of a Boris bus for £1000 a year. Bargain, it'd make life so much easier! :D

[runs as required]

I haven't ploughed through all the above "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" posts about the Bachmann Branchline Announcements for 2015/6, but nobody yet seems to have welcomed the LNW Webb coal tank.

The characterful pre Grouping models always seem to sell well (SE C class, GE J15, GW City,  L&Y 2-4-2T ).

I shall certainly pre-order one and dirty it down to resemble the only one I believe I ever saw - on the N Wales Nantlle branch in heavy rain 1949?.

 

dh

[edit - sp of Tunbridge W]

[Jeff Smith]

If Hornby does not own a factory it is probably in a better position to get reliable quotes from a third party manufacturer - there would be a contract to ensure manufacturing prices are honoured.  The trouble with cradle to grave organisations is that situations can develop and be kicked down the line to the next division....non-profitable in-house obligations are often trumped by outside customer obligations!

[Combe Martin]

If Hornby does not own a factory it is probably in a better position to get reliable quotes from a third party manufacturer - there would be a contract to ensure manufacturing prices are honoured.  The trouble with cradle to grave organisations is that situations can develop and be kicked down the line to the next division....non-profitable in-house obligations are often trumped by outside customer obligations!

Yes, it sounds like Kader tell Backmann what to do, whereas Hornby are more in a position now to dictate to their suppliers (within reason) as they have several and could take their business elsewhere.

[Guest spet0114]

I haven't ploughed through all the above "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" posts about the Bachmann Branchline Announcements for 2015/6, but nobody yet seems to have welcomed the LNW Webb coal tank.

The characterful pre Grouping models always seem to sell well (SE C class, GE J15, GW City,  L&Y 2-4-2T ).

I shall certainly pre-order one and dirty it down to resemble the only one I believe I ever saw - on the N Wales Nantlle branch in heavy rain 1949?.

 

dh

[edit - sp of Tunbridge W]

That's because it was announced several months ago,  at a BCC event on the K&WR. There is a whole thread devoted to it. 

[The Stationmaster]

If Hornby does not own a factory it is probably in a better position to get reliable quotes from a third party manufacturer - there would be a contract to ensure manufacturing prices are honoured.  The trouble with cradle to grave organisations is that situations can develop and be kicked down the line to the next division....non-profitable in-house obligations are often trumped by outside customer obligations!

I think the answer is 'yes' and 'no'.  It is perfectly feasible to go to a manufacturer in China and give them some photos, drawings, and rough outline of dimensions plus a specification and get a quote for a finished model in a particular livery.  BUT that price might only be honoured for a limited period - especially in present circumstances where costs in China are increasingly rapidly.

 

In Bachmann's case I don't know how the process works but I suspect in view of past history that the factory will only give a price once it gets to see some detail design work - don't forget that Kader have been losing a lot of money on 'model railways & toys' and are no doubt seeking to catch up.  A very different situation from Hornby as has already been explained by several posters. 

[Jeff Smith]

As someone who was an injection mould toolmaker up to just over 10 years ago I would like to explain some issues that manufacturers will experience.

 

Injection toolmaking is incredibly specialist. In the UK if you wanted to get a job in a Toolroom to work on mould tools you will either have come through an apprenticeship or will have come from another injection mould makers.

Companies who mould or make tools have no ownership of them so the risk of damage etc. to high cost tooling has to be kept to a minimum. You will never see a hammer for example - copper/hide mallets are the norm. When making tools nothing is ever checked by anyone other than the toolmaker whem making moulds so if something does go wrong it can be litterally hundreds of hours into the process.

If I go through part of the design process a CAD drawing will be done and passed onto another set of people who design the mould tools. These drawings are reversals of the original CAD. The toolmaker will then transpose these back to the other way around to make electrodes for the spark erosion process. These will be slightly different in size to cover what is called spark gap. The toolmaker doesn't get drawings for electrodes. If mistakes happen at this point you are up against it!!

As you can start to see it is very complicated to say the least and very skilled.

What this leads to is that toolmakers of injection mould tools are treated a little like a commodity and if there is a shortage (which there always is) wages can sudenly escalate.

 

Also in relation to Plastic Mouldings the guys who set up the tool in the press are again highly skilled. They are given a guidance sheet of what settings to put in - but this is a guidance only and then they will tweek the settings as they go along. Each press is different. These guys also set the robot up that removes the moulding... I personally so 2 mould tools desroyed. 1 Cost in excess of £100,000 and was scrapped. The other lost a multi million £ order - they withdrew their business and went somewhere else.

20 years ago the technicians were expected to have a HNC for this and went to college at the same time as toolmakers.

 

The above isn't an excuse for models going up dramatically but it may help people understand what can happen. In the mid ninetys we got a £1.50 an hour pay rise one day as 2 guys had left within a month. We had 20 guys in the toolroom. I think someone has said Kader employ 400 toolmakers!!

 

Stuart

Stuart - Although I am a mechanical engineer I know very little about injection tool manufacture. How does the process work?

 

Presumably a designer takes the prototype outline drawing and breaks it down into parts that can be moulded and produces detail drawings. Does he then lay them out on a sprue ready for the tooling drawing to be produced?

 

I wonder how much of this work is done by Bachmann Branchline in the UK? In other words I wonder what the work package is that is passed to the Factory?

[PenrithBeacon]

Stuart - Although I am a mechanical engineer I know very little about injection tool manufacture. How does the process work?

 

Presumably a designer takes the prototype outline drawing and breaks it down into parts that can be moulded and produces detail drawings. Does he then lay them out on a sprue ready for the tooling drawing to be produced?

 

I wonder how much of this work is done by Bachmann Branchline in the UK? In other words I wonder what the work package is that is passed to the Factory?

This might offer some insight: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injection_moulding

 

Regards

[Jeff Smith]

Thanks, yes I understand how injection moulding actually works, it was getting to the mould design that I was wondering about - and where that work is done.  In other words are all the staff employed in the UK sales and marketing or are there any designers?

[Andy Hayter]

I doubt there are few people here who can answer that, and the few that can, work for Bachmann and won't give an answer.

 

In practice I think it could be done either in the UK or in China - or Timbuktu should Boko Haram allow such western profanities. 

[Jeff Smith]

I'm just curious.....

[Mark Dickerson]

I haven't ploughed through all the above "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" posts about the Bachmann Branchline Announcements for 2015/6, but nobody yet seems to have welcomed the LNW Webb coal tank.

Welcomed? It's got a luxury weekend break with a steak dinner and possibly Prosecco (gad-about-town that I am) as far as I'm concerned. Just someone consider push-pull stock pleeeaase.

 

This is an enthusiasm. People get fired up; it's hardly surprising they may have views on what the manufacturers are doing.

[bacon butty]

Hi Jeff

 

Thanks for the question.

 

I was starting to write an article but you know what I've had a long week at work and it's Friday night - I will write an easy to digest piece on Sunday Evening. It wasn't making sense what I was writing!!

I think a lot of the guys on here would like to know how the process works and it really is enlightening.

It may help people to understand how costs are going up all the time.

 

Right where's that beer at... have a great weekend!

 

Stuart

[Mad McCann]

Once upon a time I would blow hundreds acquiring these wonderful new models, regardless of whether they were relevant or not.

Then one day, I saw the light and realised that most were going to sit in boxes doing b*gger all.

Since those, days of excess, I've stopped and taken a long, hard look at what my true interests are, what models are relevant to those interests and cleared out everything not truly of relevance. There's a limit to what I can realistically achieve with my modelling in whatever time on earth remains to be granted and the projects and kits I have will probably last me quite happily up to that point, whenever it be, so that's where my focus lies now. I apply that relevance criteria to my RTR purchases today and with that in mind there are very few locomotives appearing of direct interest. Those that are, I will set aside funds for in an old fashioned method once commonly practiced and known as 'saving'.

I've been lucky enough to be able to jump out of the rat race at a young age and though I have to live in a fairly modest and humble way, I can still afford to make purchases if I practice modelling discipline and take a 'long game' approach to larger purchases like locomotives.

In that respect, I find long lead times from announcement to introduction helpful.

As for the prices; many good explanations have been offered above and we are still receiving models of quality unimaginable on these shores. If part of that increase is down to those who produce those models on the line finally receiving a proper living wage I can personally live with that.

 

Dave.

[Colin]

Once upon a time I would blow hundreds acquiring these wonderful new models, regardless of whether they were relevant or not.

Then one day, I saw the light and realised that most were going to sit in boxes doing b*gger all.

Since those, days of excess, I've stopped and taken a long, hard look at what my true interests are, what models are relevant to those interests and cleared out everything not truly of relevance. There's a limit to what I can realistically achieve with my modelling in whatever time on earth remains to be granted and the projects and kits I have will probably last me quite happily up to that point, whenever it be, so that's where my focus lies now. I apply that relevance criteria to my RTR purchases today and with that in mind there are very few locomotives appearing of direct interest. Those that are, I will set aside funds for in an old fashioned method once commonly practiced and known as 'saving'.

I've been lucky enough to be able to jump out of the rat race at a young age and though I have to live in a fairly modest and humble way, I can still afford to make purchases if I practice modelling discipline and take a 'long game' approach to larger purchases like locomotives.

In that respect, I find long lead times from announcement to introduction helpful.

As for the prices; many good explanations have been offered above and we are still receiving models of quality unimaginable on these shores. If part of that increase is down to those who produce those models on the line finally receiving a proper living wage I can personally live with that.

Dave.

I think I pretty much agree with every word - you've summed up my feelings ( if not my own circumstances) accurately and succinctly.

[Dunsignalling]

Once upon a time I would blow hundreds acquiring these wonderful new models, regardless of whether they were relevant or not.

Then one day, I saw the light and realised that most were going to sit in boxes doing b*gger all.

Since those, days of excess, I've stopped and taken a long, hard look at what my true interests are, what models are relevant to those interests and cleared out everything not truly of relevance. There's a limit to what I can realistically achieve with my modelling in whatever time on earth remains to be granted and the projects and kits I have will probably last me quite happily up to that point, whenever it be, so that's where my focus lies now. I apply that relevance criteria to my RTR purchases today and with that in mind there are very few locomotives appearing of direct interest. Those that are, I will set aside funds for in an old fashioned method once commonly practiced and known as 'saving'.

I've been lucky enough to be able to jump out of the rat race at a young age and though I have to live in a fairly modest and humble way, I can still afford to make purchases if I practice modelling discipline and take a 'long game' approach to larger purchases like locomotives.

In that respect, I find long lead times from announcement to introduction helpful.

As for the prices; many good explanations have been offered above and we are still receiving models of quality unimaginable on these shores. If part of that increase is down to those who produce those models on the line finally receiving a proper living wage I can personally live with that.

 

Dave.

Pity there isn't a "double agree" button!

 

John

[dibber25]

If that is the case,why do Hornby publish their RRP with their catalogue ???? Their models on the whole are made in China are they not???

I thought we were discussing Bachmann? Hornby's arrangements may well be very different from Bachmann's. I was talking about a discussion I had with Dennis Lovett about Bachmann products and that is one of the things he told me. We didn't discuss Hornby's rrps.