Mol_PMB Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 I just found this on Flickr but something doesn’t ring true about the caption (click on the photo for the Flickr link and original caption). It’s certainly a Sentinel and looks brand new, but is it an MSC one? If so, is it really going to Ellesmere Port? Or is Walton more likely? Or is it unrelated to the MSC? Any thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 Reference here to them regularly travelling between Mode Wheel and Ellesmere Port. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Yq2IDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT16&lpg=PT16&dq=sentinel+shunters+at+ellesmere+port&source=bl&ots=7XpKBA7t-z&sig=ACfU3U3DrGEfL5YwExtGkGF-4BMDCUCzOQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjtspGK65H2AhWRZMAKHXkhBFUQ6AF6BQiFARAD#v=onepage&q=sentinel shunters at ellesmere port&f=false Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 Interesting. At Ellesmere Port I’ve only ever seen photos of the larger MSC 0-6-0 Sentinels, though there was a smaller 4w version at Bowaters. The loco in the photo doesn’t seem to have the MSC lettering/numbering or the lining on the bodyside, nor does it have numbers on the bufferbeam. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim76 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 2 hours ago, woodenhead said: Reference here to them regularly travelling between Mode Wheel and Ellesmere Port. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Yq2IDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT16&lpg=PT16&dq=sentinel+shunters+at+ellesmere+port&source=bl&ots=7XpKBA7t-z&sig=ACfU3U3DrGEfL5YwExtGkGF-4BMDCUCzOQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjtspGK65H2AhWRZMAKHXkhBFUQ6AF6BQiFARAD#v=onepage&q=sentinel shunters at ellesmere port&f=false How would they be returned - hauled or under their own power on the British Rail network or via the MSC's own railway? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted February 22, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 22, 2022 32 minutes ago, Jim76 said: How would they be returned - hauled or under their own power on the British Rail network or via the MSC's own railway? On the Southern they’d issue temporary mainline certificates to allow them to transit under their own power if in working order. There’re photos of MOD locos doing it near us, as the photo above with a brake van attached. 2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said: The loco in the photo doesn’t seem to have the MSC lettering/numbering or the lining on the bodyside, nor does it have numbers on the bufferbeam. If as you said in the earlier post, it looks brand new, did the MSC apply their own branding later or was this the first one on a proving trial to test it at the various sites? It could be what led to the decision to only use the larger machines at certain places because these struggled. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Interesting thoughts, thank you all. The five various sections of the MSC Railway system were separate from each other, so locos would have to move via BR or by road between them (both options were used, by the early 1960s the MSC certainly preferred road moves for the steam locos, not sure about diesels). Strictly speaking there were only 4 sections in use by the 1960s: Ellesmere Port west and east, Walton-Wigg Island, and the main section from Latchford to Salford, Manchester and Trafford Park. New Sentinels were delivered from Shrewsbury by rail, often in groups forming a train with one or more brake vans. There's a photo of DH19 to DH22 plus a couple of wagons and a brake van on their delivery trip, and they are fully lettered MSC and numbered on the sides and bufferbeams. I wonder if it is not MSC-related but a new Sentinel for a different customer? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted February 22, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2022 I have that photo labelled as MSC No4 on BR at Weaste - presumably on delivery as it does look brand new. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 13 minutes ago, Michael Edge said: I have that photo labelled as MSC No4 on BR at Weaste - presumably on delivery as it does look brand new. Thanks, that’s interesting but also puzzling. There wasn’t a Sentinel numbered 4 on the MSC! If it was the fourth 4w DH, it would have been DH18, which was delivered on its own in April 1964. Perhaps the first few weren’t lettered by Sentinel? DH19 onwards certainly were. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnd Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 (edited) What I find interesting is the Ruston & Hornsby and its load in the background just above the Sentinel ! Edited February 22, 2022 by johnd 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 18 minutes ago, johnd said: What I find interesting is the Ruston & Hornsby and its load in the background just above the Sentinel ! Indeed! I spotted that too. The location is given as Dallam, and it's posted by 'Dallam Dave' so I'm inclined to trust that (it certainly isn't at Weaste). I cannot see an obvious candidate RH loco in this area listed in EL1. Within a couple of miles of Dallam there were links to two separate parts of the MSC Railway network. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 47 minutes ago, johnd said: What I find interesting is the Ruston & Hornsby and its load in the background just above the Sentinel ! With what looks like someone in the cab. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted February 22, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2022 I wasn't at all sure about that caption - I thought it looked like Dallam. S4 is our own code for a 4w chain drive sentinel - not anything to do with the loco's number. New locos were routinely delivered, sometimes over long distances, on rail in those days. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall5 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 If the location is really Dallam could the Sentinel be en-route from Salop to Preston Docks. Do we have a date for the photo? Ray. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Good thought, Ray. I'm tending towards thinking that it's a new Sentinel on delivery to a customer other than the MSC, and Preston would be another nearby option. The photo is undated on Flickr, unfortunately. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted February 22, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2022 That seems more likely, Dallam isn't exactly on the way to MSC from Shrewsbury. The RH in the background is a 23T 88DS if that helps anyone. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall5 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 (edited) Here's another photo that raises more questions. Where was MSC 3001 going when it was photographed, headed North, light engine, at Winwick in June 1967? Ray. Edited February 5 by Marshall5 Reloaded photo 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted February 22, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2022 Unusual to be running with the engine access door open - heading somewhere for some sort of maintenance work that Mode Wheel couldn't do? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 EE works at Newton-Le-Willows just a mile away ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 (edited) Lovely photo, and one that will no doubt help more modellers justify an MSC Sentinel model for their BR layout! Which way is it heading - north or south? It would have been a few years old by then. Is it en route between Ellesmere Port and Mode Wheel or vice versa (route via Helsby, Warrington BQ, Earlestown, Eccles?) Edit: Am I getting confused? Shouldn't the line be electrified if it's Winwick Jcn? Or did that come later? Edited February 22, 2022 by Mol_PMB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall5 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 (edited) The photo was one of a large number of negatives left to me by a friend the late Chris. Weldon. The neg folder is labelled "Winwick 6.67". Looking at the 1:50.000 O.S. and other negs on the roll I reckon the photo was taken from a minor road bridge just over a mile South of Winwick Jc. Although a mostly dull day one photo shows strong shadows so I would say 3001 is heading North. Could the engine cover have been left off to assist in cooling for longer journeys? According to Wiki the electrification of the WCML north of Weaver Jc, to Glasgow wasn't completed until 1974. As Apollo says perhaps it was going to EE for major repairs .... but would it go under its own power if it needed major repairs ??? A bit of a mystery. Ray. Edited February 22, 2022 by Marshall5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 I have consulted the massed brains of the Industrial Railway Society egroup on the Dallam photo, I'm sure they will tell us! Incidentally, off-topic for MSC, there are many very interesting photos on Dallam Dave's photostream, well worth a look through. This one almost counts; a diesel from Irlam steelworks (but photographed at LSC's other site in Warrington) which would have run along the MSC Railway at some time in its life: Here's a screengrab from an old film showing one doing exactly that: M 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 This looks like a great day out! 5 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 8 hours ago, Michael Edge said: Unusual to be running with the engine access door open - heading somewhere for some sort of maintenance work that Mode Wheel couldn't do? Or maybe when running a sustained top speed, remembering at some points it is on the WCML, they have to let in more air flow to the engine? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 Lots of discussion about the Sentinel on the IRS egroup, no final conclusion yet but suggested it is a demonstrator on tour around prospective customers. The Ruston worked at Warrington gasworks. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 On 22/02/2022 at 11:07, Marshall5 said: If the location is really Dallam could the Sentinel be en-route from Salop to Preston Docks. Do we have a date for the photo? Ray. Ray, You win the prize I think! After much discussion on the IRS Group, they are settling on the same conclusion that it is a Port of Preston loco. They were some of the last built, had a bufferbeam corner cutout (not chamfer), a protector behind the coupling and a RR badge instead of the Sentinel Sword. The loco in the photo has those features. Compare to the middle one in the photo below taken at Preston more recently (NB the left-hand one is an ex-MSC loco now at Preston) However, in the Dallam photo it's heading south rather than north, so what it's doing isn't entirely clear! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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